Michael Heiser on Who (or What) Were the Nephilim

Dr. Michael Heiser wrote an article titled, Who (or What) Were the Nephilim? (September 28, 2018 AD).
Since I have written a lot on this issue from various vantage points, I wanted to focus on his elucidation of the supposed post-flood Nephilim.

Heiser references the only text, outside of Genesis 6, here Nephilim are mentioned which is Numbers 13:32–33 (which he quotes from the ESV thusly):
“So they brought to the people of Israel a bad report of the land that they had spied out, saying, ‘The land, through which we have gone to spy it out, is a land that devours its inhabitants, and all the people that we saw in it are of great height. And there we saw the Nephilim (the sons of Anak, who come from the Nephilim), and we seemed to ourselves like grasshoppers, and so we seemed to them.’”

He refers to the connection of “Israel’s survival as the people of Yahweh with the defeat of the Nephilim descendants.” But “Nephilim descendants” begs the next question Heiser asks and answers which is “How did the Nephilim survive the flood?”

He asserts:
“Genesis 6:4 pointedly informs readers that the Nephilim were on earth before the flood ‘and also afterward.’ The phrase looks forward to Numbers 13:33, which says with equal clarity that the oversized descendants of Anak ‘came from the Nephilim.’ The sons of Anak, the Anakim, were one of the giant clans described in the conquest narratives (e.g., Deut. 2:10–11, 21; Josh. 11:21–22; 14:12, 15).”

Nephilim Giants.jpg
An example of far too many ridiculous
and less than helpful illustrations

Before getting to the last sentence in his though, which is “The text clearly links them to the Nephilim, but how is this possible given the account of the flood?” let us pause and review.

I take “and also afterward” as looking forward to Numbers 13:33 as an assertion—not an imperative one, a myopic one, and one that causes problems.

We are told “There were giants [an unfortunate pseudo-translation of “Nephilim”] in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men…” When were those days and when was after that? Heiser looks forwards from this point, I look backwards—in a manner of speaking.
The text tells us when those days were twice. Verses 1-2 tells us “when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, that the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives…” and the verse at which we just looked notes “when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men.” Thus, “after that” is just that: after those days—this much is crystal clear.
But when were those days? I know not exactly however, it could have been as early as when Adam and Eve’s children started having children. This means that after that is after those days yet, still pre-flood.

Now, Michael Heiser emphasizes the “equal clarity” of (three issues here): 1) “the oversized,” 2) “descendants of Anak” which “came from the Nephilim,” and 3) “the Anakim, were one of the giant clans described in the conquest narratives.”
This can get very verbose very quickly so I will make succinct statements and leave interested readers to peruse my section on Nephilim (I am publishing a book on Nephilim and giants but as of October 2018 AD it has not been published: depending on when you read this, it might have been, see my list of books to check).

To review:
It is difficult to accept the term “equal clarity” regarding Numbers 13: 33’s correlation to Genesis 6 when the latter has been misunderstood. Of course, that does not mean that it is not clear but that it have been misunderstood.
Yes, Numbers 13 is clear but it is key to understand that the claim in v. 33 was made by unfaithful/disloyal spies who presented a bad/evil report and were rebuked for it: for details, see Did Caleb and the spies see Nephilim giants in the land?—in short, the presented a “don’t go in the woods” style fear mongering tall tale.
Thus, “oversized” is overstated by the spies, the Anakim where in the land but that they “came from the Nephilim” is made up (not back by any other statement in the Bible), the Anakim can only be said to be “one of the giant clans” if we understand that “giant” is being translated from “Repha” or “Rephaim” (unlike some who translate Nephilim as “giants” in Genesis 6)—also, note that “giants” is a generic term that only means taller than average (and Hebrew males of those days averaged 5.5 ft.). Thus, v. 33 truly is a standalone statement with virtually no relation to reality.

Heiser informs us that “There are two alternatives for explaining the presence of giants after the flood who descended from the giant Nephilim” about which I will say that adding mine makes three. Before getting to that, note the qualified statement, “giants after the flood who descended from the giant Nephilim”: 1) by now you should reject statements such as “giant Nephilim,” you should note that his statement “giants after the flood” really means “Rephaim after the flood,” and that there is no reason to think that taller than 5.5 ft. people post-flood have anything to do with Nephilim, sons of God or any such thing—if they were tall or very tall they were just tall or very tall (FYI: “tall” and “very tall” are also generic terms).

Heiser’s options are:
“The flood of Genesis 6–8 was a regional, not global, catastrophe.
The same kind of behavior described in Genesis 6:1–4 happened again (or continued to happen) after the flood, producing other Nephilim, from whom the giant clans descended.”

My elucidation, my third way, is based on the clarity of Genesis 6 and the facts about Numbers 13. Moreover, I am not forced to change the scope of the flood simply in order to get Nephilim past the flood and I do not have to claim that it happened again (or continued to happen) since the Bible knows absolutely nothing about any such thing—nor about any concept of a return of the Nephilim for that matter.

As for option one, Heiser notes that “Many biblical scholars, scientists, and other researchers have marshaled the evidence in favor of” a “localized flood.” I will merely state that God sure did make it difficult for Noah (and the animals). Rather than having the poor chap build an entire ark for over a century, He could have just said, “Get to stepp’n, just move a few miles over yonder.” Also, rather than brining the various animal kinds to the localize flood’s epicenter, He could have kept the animals away.

As for option two, Heiser notes that “Did the Nephilim’s origin re-occur?” is answerable by “a possibility deriving from Hebrew grammar.” At this point, we go back to those days and after that about which Heiser tells us “The ‘when’” the sons of God married the daughters of men “in the verse could be translated ‘whenever,’ thereby suggesting a repetition of these pre-flood events after the flood.”

Heiser concludes, “since Genesis 6:4 points forward to the later giant clans, the phrasing could suggest that other sons of God fathered more Nephilim after the flood.”

One problem is that he is basing this not only on Hebrew grammar but an employment of Hebrew grammar towards the desired end of having Numbers 13:33 be a face value statement—which is most certainly is not.
Another problem is that he is linking the word “when” and Nephilim with “later giant clans” which is a connecting something that the Bible never does. We are told the titles/terms used of various clans by various peoples but one term that is never once included in those is Nephilim.
And, of course, note that he states that “the phrasing could” and not does “suggest…”

Michael Heiser concludes that “A later appearance of other Nephilim occurred by the same means as before the flood” about which I will again say that this is something of which the Bible knows nothing—period.

The last statement by Heiser I will quote is “Fear of the giant clans results in a spiritual failure that means wandering in the desert…” and by now you know that 1) correlating Nephilim with “giant clans” is fallacious and that which, in part, led to “Fear of the” non-Nephilim “giant clans results in” statements such as Numbers 13:33 which was “a spiritual failure that means wandering in the desert…”

See my various books here.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ A plea: I have to pay for server usage and have made all content on this website free and always will. I support my family on one income and do research, writing, videos, etc. as a hobby. If you can even spare $1.00 as a donation, please do so: it may not seem like much but if each person reading this would do so, even every now and then, it would add up and really, really help out. Here is my donate/paypal page.

Due to robo-spaming, I had to close the comment sections. However, you can comment on my Twitter page, on my Facebook page, or any of my other social network sites all which are available here.

Claim “Genesis 6 never mentions angels once”

The following discussion took place due to my video Angels, were there post-flood Nephilim & were giants gigantic? Jay Dyer & Ken Ammi.

Jeremy James commented
Genesis 6 never mentions angels once

I, Ken Ammi, replied
Friend, does Job 38:7 mention Angels?

Jeremy James (note that he replies with the text and it certainly makes it clear that “sons of God” here are not humans)
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?
It is a prophesy of the coming of Jesus Christ as he is the “chief corner stone”. The sons of God who were shouting for joy are the saved believers who were saved by faith before the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us. Salvation has always been by faith. I can prove this if you’d like as Jesus is “the lamb slain from the foundation of the world”.
Thanks for taking the time for the discussion!

cover2b-2bwhat2bdoes2bthe2bbible2bsay2babout2bangels2b-2ba2bstyled2bangelology-3528595

Ken Ammi
You are quite welcome and thank you in turn.
I urge you to reconsider since such is not what the text is stating. That is very clearly about the creation “when I laid the foundations of the earth.”
Now, if the sons of God are human believers, then who are the morning stars?
Also, you are implying some sort of preexistence since you say that believers were around before the Word was made flesh.
And you refer to being “saved by faith” which we are nor. Rather, we are saved by grace (through faith).

Jeremy James
Genesis chapter 4 has Cains wicked genealogy. Genesis chapter 5 has Seths genealogy and chapter 6 is when the 2 genealogies start intermarrying. Genesis 6 says they took WIVES that they chose. Hebrews tells us Angels CANNOT marry.

Ken Ammi
Well, there is no such thing in the Bible as “Cains wicked genealogy,” that is just a tall tale that was invented in order to ignore that the original, traditional, and majority view amongst the earliest Jews and Christians was the Angel view. I proved this in my book “On the Genesis 6 Affair’s Sons of God: Angels or Not?” subtitle “A survey of early Jewish and Christian commentaries including noted on giants and the Nephilim.”

Jeremy James
I’m not endorsing the “serpent seed” theory as it’s easily proven as false. What I’m saying is that chapters 4,5,and 6 go together as one would expect a book to. The sons of God and daughters of men are what Genesis 4 and 5 are about. Also it really doesn’t matter what “early Jews and Christians” believed, because false doctrine is as old as religion itself. anyways, doesn’t Genesis 6 mention these sons of God MARRIED these daughters of men? Doesn’t the bible also state that Angels DONT marry?
Matthew 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven
Genesis 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them WIVES of all which they chose.

cover2b-2bwhat2bdoes2bthe2bbible2bsay2babout2bdemons2b-2ba2bstyled2bdemonology-1308114

Ken Ammi
Well, I am unsure why people marrying other people would lead to God bringing about the flood.
Matthew 22:30 specifies that it is the Angels “in heaven” that do not marry which is why those who did fell by doing so. Jude and 2 Peter 2 help us understand this as they “left their first estate.”

Bert Joseph chimed in with
What kind of angels are the “Sons of God” Genesis Chapter 6? Are they fallen angels? Good discussion, Thx guys.

Ken Ammi
Indeed, that is the moment of their fall. Thank you for your kind words.

Jeremy James
Ken. If that was the moment of their fall then what was the serpent doing in the garden beguiling Eve?

Ken Ammi
Satan is not an Angel, he is a Cherub: Genesis 3 pinpoints the moment of the action via which he fell and Genesis 6 pinpoints the moment of the action of the Angels via which they fell.

Jeremy James
Yes we are saved by grace through faith.
Ken. I will prove that salvation has always been through faith. Paul says “whoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.” In the OT believers were looking forward to the cross. They knew a redeemer was coming and put their faith in him and his promise. Abraham was justified by faith. Scripture says David called upon the name of the Lord and was saved. I’ll post them in order.

Ken Ammi
Not sure why you wrote, “Yes we are saved by grace through faith” and then “I will prove that salvation has always been through faith.” They “put their faith in him…” by grace. They were “justified by faith” but salvation is by grace, though faith. David “was saved” by grace just like anyone else.

Jeremy James
Ken. The intermarrying of the two genealogies led to the spread of wickedness as Genesis 6:5 says. We know the beliefs of Cain and Abel. Cain offered God the works of his own hands, which is works salvation. Abel did as God commanded and did it with faith. When you read the genealogy of Cain, you read the second murder in recorded history is committed by one of Cains descendants. Wickedness spread faster when the intermarriage started. False beliefs were spread (works). Take care.
Angels are spirits without flesh. How can a spirit without flesh reproduce?

cover2b-2bwhat2bdoes2bthe2bbible2bsay2babout2bangels2b-2ba2bstyled2bangelology-3528595

Ken Ammi
Jeremy. The intermarrying of the sons of God and daughters of men led to the spread of wickedness as Genesis 6:1 says. Genesis 6:5 does not say anything about “The intermarrying of the two genealogies.”
Angels are not spirits and do have flesh thus, they did reproduce. The Bible never tells us that Angels are spirits. Now, we are not to build an entire doctrine on one verse and if you seek to provide a citation and quotation about them being spirits you will find just that, one verse: Psalm 104:4, which is reiterated in Hebrews 1.
Yet, please note that in both Hebrew and Greek the term and concept of spirit is corralled with wind and/or breath. When you read the Psalm for context, you will see why a lot of versions have Angels as being “winds” (Psalms being poetic and lyrical as they are) which is also how they have the Hebrews 1 text.
Every single time an Angel is described they are described physically looking like human males (no wings, no halos) so why deny these many facts and opt for that they are not?

Jeremy James
Ken. Grace is a gift of God that comes through faith. Without faith there is no grace for the sinner . Faith comes first. “Without faith it’s impossible to please God”. I said salvation is by grace through faith, but first thing is first.
Paul says “we are justified by faith without the deeds of the law”

Ken Ammi
So we agree that salvation is by grace through faith.

Jeremy James
Yes I stated that above. Thanks for replying.

Jeremy James
Genesis 6:5 doesn’t say it specifically, that’s why you have to read the fourth and fifth chapters to he who God is talking about. Doesn’t it say something like the Spirit of God shall not always strive with MAN (paraphrase) right after Genesis 6:5? He’s talking about man.
Angels are ministering spirits and spirits do not have flesh and bone as Jesus Christ said himself…..Luke 24:39!Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have

Ken Ammi
The first few verses in Genesis 6 provide the premise and the following few focus on humanity as that is the Bible’s main point (Jude and 2 Peter 2 refer to these Angels).
True, spirits do not have flesh and bone but Angles are not spirits: this is not something you should just assert but should provide evidence. And, by the way, I already elucidated that issue for you so people allow iron to sharpen iron.

Jeremy James
Angels aren’t spirits? Hebrews actually calls them “ministering spirits”.

Ken Ammi
Friend, we already went over this: Hebrews does not call them “ministering spirits,” it calls them “leitourgikos pneuma.” In both Hebrew and Greek there is a concept which covers both breath/wing and spirit: these are ruwach and pneuma.
Thus, you cannot simply quote one single translation and build an entire doctrine upon one word therefrom. Hebrews is basing it statements upon Psalm 104 and when you read that text you will see that the context demands that we understand Angels as being likened to winds.
Thus, Hebrews refers to them as ministering winds which correlates to that which Jesus stated in John 3, “The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit” (and yes, this text has both “wind” and “Spirit” as pneuma and translates them differently due to context).
Plus, just because you want to argue against the original, traditional and majority view of Genesis 6, you not only build a whole doctrine on one word but also ignore every single description of Angles in the Bible.

And that was the end of it as he no longer replied.

See my various books here.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ A plea: I have to pay for server usage and have made all content on this website free and always will. I support my family on one income and do research, writing, videos, etc. as a hobby. If you can even spare $1.00 as a donation, please do so: it may not seem like much but if each person reading this would do so, even every now and then, it would add up and really, really help out. Here is my donate/paypal page.

Due to robo-spaming, I had to close the comment sections. However, you can comment on my Twitter page, on my Facebook page, or any of my other social network sites all which are available here.

Ancient Giants and Biblical Giants with guest Gary Wayne

This is a double whammy post of discussions.

The first took place due to the video Special LIVE report – Biblical Giants with guest Gary Wayne, which I just found out YouTube says, “isn’t available anymore,” to which Priscilla Amavizca commented

WOW he literally went from Genesis to Revelation, past history to future and end times, and connected everything together so articulated!……………

For some reason, I don’t have a record of my reply but you can infer it from her reply to me since Priscilla Amavizca wrote back

Hi Ken! I really appreciate all your work and perspective as well. I think the differences in perspective between youand Gary come down to worldview differences. I watched your first 2 videos with George so when I watched your debate video, I got context for where you’re coming from.

When I studied Old Testament in my Chriatian university, we discussed the same points you did and your perspective is similar to what my professor (expert in Genesis and early Bible books) deduced. So I TOTALLY get where your coming from (for example, “giant” and “men of great stature/renown” also meant men who were mighty warriors and heros, etc, not necessarily giant).

However it could even mean BOTH in deed and in physical, we just won’t know how they meant it back then. And honestly just like you said in your debate video, it’s a topic that’s just a bit too vague to draw accurate conclusions without assuming too much lol, on both ends. I think both of you had excellent arguments, I understood what both of you and Gary meant.

I did find you were being a bit more attacking to Gary more than he was to you, he only started attacking back after being defensive, and you were being a bit snickering and laughing at him while he talked. But I loved how you apologized in case at the end. It’s hard to argue about something you’re so passionate without almost getting a bit personal lol!

To me, Gary’s perspective tied into what the cohost, Jessie, has shared in her knowledge of bloodlines, the deeper spiritual connections and implications of these potential “beings,’ and the more esoteric knowledge of the past that the “elites” seem to agree with on in their own books and writings, which I have read some and can confirm they are both right on that as well. And she also claims that she has personally witnessed these giants, which comes down to us individually whether we believe she is being truthful or not.

So it’s a bit tricky. One of Jessie’s mentors, Cisco, who also claims to have been a mother of darkness, says she feels she knows how that post-flood giants appeared (she talks about it on Right On Radio) and it makes for solid argument if you hold the worldview of how deeply spiritual everything is.

And I guess that’s just the thing that makes your perspective mostly different from Gary’s: a worldview perspective. Gary seems to consider the spiritual aspects as details that are more significant to the case, such as the ones we discuss on this program, while you focus on the traditional interpretations of the Bible, such as my more-or-less conservative Bible university professor and his colleges. Both of you are very well studied, however, and we always need to keep our heads thinking and jot just focused on one perspective or one that tickles our ears more.

Keep up the good work! Blessings!

Ken Ammi

Most interesting! Now, I’m sure you’ll empathize when I note that when you say “‘giant’…also meant men who were mighty warriors and heros, etc, not necessarily giant” I’ll ask to what you’re referring since in your English Bible “giant” is merely rendering “Nephilim” or “Rephaim”: neither of which imply anything about height or might or hero—even if applied to such. This was a key aspect of the debate: I urged that we not use the term “giant” and quite a ways into the debate Gary essentially stated the same.

See, when you refer to “we just won’t know how they meant it back then” that’s a secondary issue since you didn’t tell me to what word you’re referring: what Hebrew word.

What’s “a bit too vague” is using a vague, generic, subjective, multi-usage, and undefined English word to refer to various things yet, the Biblical data is quite clear. Also, recall that Gary admitted not knowing how “big” Nephilim were but insists on calling them “giants.”

I never once attacked Gary in any way, shape, or form: I critiqued his views. He, in turn, accused me of denying God’s word.

But if you want to tally who attacked, snickered, and laughed: you may be surprised.

I apologized that he mistook me for interrupting: I only did so due to seeking to get him to clarify a point before finishing his statement. The issue was that he made so many errors that by the time he finished a statement there were too many errors with which to deal.

I do find that when we seek to sharpen iron with iron (which is what I said we were doing), someone gets cut.

In short: Gary, Jessie, and Cisco teach post-flood Nephilim (in one way or another) but the Bible does not. I chose to not contradict the Bible and not imply that God failed.

My heart breaks for Jessie but you must, or so I think, keep in mind that it’s very, very tricky to rely on someone who has undergone mind control—especially when they are making claims that, again, contradict the Bible.

Again, I can’t interact with that she “personally witnessed these giants” since I know not who “these” are?

Also, perhaps Nephilim were unusually tall, I have no idea, my only point is that we just don’t know—and Gary agrees with me.

I’m unsure how my worldview is different from Cisco or Gary on the basis of “how deeply spiritual everything is”: keep in mind that there’s a reason I call myself a “Systematic Biblical Paranormologist.”

So, perhaps “Gary seems to consider the spiritual aspects as details that are more significant to the case” but he’s also making claims about the material/physical realm that don’t seem to be at all accurate. Ask yourself how many times, for example, you’ve hear him refer to Nephilim as “giants” meaning unusually tall and how you now have to review all such claims since I asked him one simple question and he admitted he doesn’t know if they were “giants”—please don’t underplay how utterly significant that is.

I understand that tall tales tickles our ears more than analyzing the data systematically but we are called to rightly divide God’s word.

Shalom!

Well, that was the end of that one.

The next discussion was due to the video, “Ancient Giants” to which Margie Cook commented

This was my take on the “after that” thing. Noah and his wife and sons were genetically pure. The wives of the sons were chosen shortly before the flood. They were not genetically pure. So some of the children of ham Shem and japheth were Nephilim. I feel like that is where the Giants came from after the flood.

They were also not allowed to have children during the time they were on the ark. This is possibly why. I believe it was ham that some of the new Giants came from. They were not as big as the ones before. I am not saying that I am totally correct on this but it was my understanding. Just thought I would throw that out there. May Elohim bless you in all you do.

Ken Ammi

So, are you saying God failed? Did He miss the genetic loophole? Was the flood essentially a waste then? FYI: you’re having to invent tall tales to explain “Giants…after the flood” but you jumped from the specific Hebrew term “Nephilim” to the generic English one “Giants” so to whom are you referring? Also, we’ve no reliable physical description of Nephilim so why equate them with issues of height?

Margie Cook

I’m not saying that Elohim failed! What is wrong with you? The Word tells us that there were giants after the flood. Maybe you should read your Bible instead of trolling and  attacking folks just trying to figure things out. Giants were Nephilim. They also sinned against animals so I’m pretty sure they would be considered Nephilim also. Maybe I’m right and you’re just mad because you can’t figure things out on your own. If you couldn’t even understand my comment, that explains why you can’t understand the Bible. I’m beyond done with trolls. Be gone HaSatan!

Ken Ammi

I’ll ignore your worldly unrighteous anger—but please do repent.

Where is it that “The Word tells us that there were giants after the flood”?

When you say “Giants were Nephilim” it seems that you’re not aware that in your English Bible the term “giants” is rendering (not even translating) both “Nephilim” and also “Rephaim” (who have nothing to do with Nephilim) so that it’s myopically incorrect to blanketly assert “Giants were Nephilim.”

When you say “They also sinned against animals” you’re referring to folklore from MILLENNIA after the Torah was written. Also, you seem to not understand to what that line is referring: it has nothing to do with some sort of Nephilim animals—or, whatever you implied.

Keep in mind that I asked a question, “So, are you saying God failed?” and asked “Did He miss the genetic loophole?” and asked “Was the flood essentially a waste then?”

I then noted, “you’re having to invent tall tales to explain ‘Giants…after the flood’ but you jumped from the specific Hebrew term ‘Nephilim’ to the generic English one ‘Giants’” and so I asked “so to whom are you referring?”

I also noted, “we’ve no reliable physical description of Nephilim” and asked “so why equate them with issues of height?”

You don’t seem to be very interested in actually discussing the problems you caused and vagaries you sated.

Overall, I’m seeking to sharpen iron with iron and you called me a bunch of names—again, please repent.

And well, that ended that discussion.

See my various books here.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ A plea: I have to pay for server usage and have made all content on this website free and always will. I support my family on one income and do research, writing, videos, etc. as a hobby. If you can even spare $1.00 as a donation, please do so: it may not seem like much but if each person reading this would do so, even every now and then, it would add up and really, really help out. Here is my donate/paypal page.

Due to robo-spaming, I had to close the comment sections. However, you can comment on my Twitter page, on my Facebook page, or any of my other social network sites all which are available here.

Discussing the claim “ENOCH Is Scripture (Proof)”

The info section to the video ENOCH Is Scripture (Proof) states, “Some say the Book of Enoch is a good book to reference, or historical. However, our Messiah called it scripture!”

I, Ken Ammi, commented

By “Is Scripture” do you mean belongs in the canon?

If so, why is it not therein?

Also, it does not seem that Jesus was quoting 1 Enoch.

He said, “Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God” so it may seem that He goes on to quote it (but note that His statement is clearly not a quotation) but we might as well say that He was quoting “the power of God.”

In any case, 1 Enoch contradicts the Bible so many times that I filled a whole chapter with examples in my book “In Consideration of the Book(s) of Enoch.”

TNtraveler replied

You’re right.

John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” Which excluded the book of Enoch.

Jesus was not quoting the book of Enoch in Matthew 22. Although there are places in the Bible that do, like in Jude and Paul references it.

But For some reason, these are the only verses God approved of. The rest of the book of Enoch, didn’t get Gods stamp of approval.

There’s some reason this man wants so badly to focus on that book. Is he doing it his way or Gods way. God bless

TheJBerg noted

Book of Enoch didn’t get included because Council of Nicea couldn’t agree on it’s inclusion. God had nothing to do with it, just church politics.

TNtraveler

Ok, so since the Council of Nicea made the decision to include all the others, God didn’t divinely inspire that either. Ok. Well I just won’t study it anymore at all then. Thanks for the enlightenment.

Tausha the Tech @TheJBerg

no they found it’s been written by several different authors. They couldn’t determine it to be God breathed. Discernment should tell you this as well. Especially since the end states Enoch himself is the chosen messiah. I own the book, its spiritually dark. It’s crazy to me that people dont trust Gods sovereignty over his own word.

Rebecca Spires @TheJBerg

and God said “ the gates of hell will not prevail” so I’m positive God included all He wanted.

dsvet

The Truth About the Apocrypha and the Lost Books of the Bible https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XxjH7CfhSX8

TNtraveler @Tausha the Tech

Wow. I have not read the book of Enoch. I only know it’s an extremely large book about apocalyptic days. But I didn’t know it claims Enoch is the Messiah It’s in Enoch 71:14. This is why it wasn’t included in the Bible. That voids ALL discussion because it’s blasphemy. Thank you for pointing that out!

Ken Ammi @TheJBerg

But how could it be that a book that contradicts the Bible (a lot) didn’t get included because a council that didn’t even deal with the canon couldn’t agree on it’s inclusion?

Javier Feria

Sir

Don’t give up, continue searching…

The writings are inspired by God, you’ll find much spiritual wisdom if you keep searching the holy scriptures

TNtraveler

Also, do some research on 1 Enoch chapter 71. It talks about  who the son of man is. It’s been interpreted that in those verses as it is describing the Messiah, it points to Enoch as the son of man. This is one of the reasons it was not put in the Bible,. It’s blasphemy. it’s a huge book so all that just wasn’t necessary. You can Google about it. But ultimately, God did not lead the council to include it in the Bible bc it would contradict scripture. It’s interesting to read it because it’s about apocalyptic times, but don’t get sucked into as divinely inspired bc it wasn’t. God Bless

Maker Marx @TheJBerg

God has everything to do with everything, permitting or denying.

Jack Nicholls @TNtraveler

because god has different type of believers in him down here, we have the ones who stick to the book, we have ones who ignore it, we have ones who take and add, but most importantly, we have people that search for the truth, god didn’t take these scriptures out as far as I am aware, it was man. Now the scriptures may have been removed with the influence of god maybe because the church age (right now) doesn’t  need that information.

Beth-El Yisrael

Y’all REALLY think it’s okay to omit books that were originally included in the Bible?? Y’all are aware that Yah said that their will be divine retribution for those who adds or takes away from the Bible, right?

Just because Yah allows something bad to happen does not mean that he approves of it. All of these occurred to fulfill the prophecies spoken about how man would take the word and twist it and do other abominable things that Yah hates. Also if Genesis states that Enoch was a man that WALKED with Yah and was without because Yah took him meaning he DID NOT DIE…don’t you think that book is REALLY important?? I’d most definitely like to read the book he wrote because if he was so close with Yah I’m quite sure things were revealed to him that the average man never knew about or saw.

Come on now.  It’s all to sow confusion.

Marcin_R

There are many gnostic scriptures that the church doesn’t deem as canon, now ask yourselves why is that? Why would they omit such writings that point towards Truth and salvation? Maybe back when the Roman Catholic church was forming, and remember this is still a Roman mentality, of those that govern. I don’t think they would like it very much to have Free men and women as citizens, you see! you can’t tell what to do to those that walk with God.

And if I am a priest but the people are higher than me spiritually what would that make me? like a joke.

And if you are sick but I have a secret medicine than I can manipulate this for great profit.

Men that govern love power, control is what they covet. They don’t want the people strong of will and spirit, that would make them appear lesser.

“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.”

Beth-El Yisrael @Marcin_R

HalleluYah!! Right on point!!

Rebeccablackford7794 @TNtraveler

what if there the books that were closed up because they’re meant for a remote generation,  ones who’s knowledge will increase rapidly! That’s spoken of in the end of Daniel.

Ken Ammi @Marcin_R

Your reference to “many gnostic scriptures” is too generic to follow up with “point towards Truth and salvation.” Most Gnostic scriptures just take Biblical doctrines and turn them upside-down, inside-out, and backward.

Marcin_R

They don’t distort what is written in the Bible, just what people think of the Bible.

If I am convinced that the way I see the Bible is the only true and actual, then anything else that doesn’t coincide with this view will be thrown away.

And I will do all I can to protect it, to protect my beliefs, a go to place, my comfort zone.

The problem here is that people don’t realize these are just beliefs and they mistake them for the actual.

Gnostic poetry threatens such views because it points to the actual, a direct experience of God. And with that we don’t need any more beliefs.

Marcin_R

btw, if you see when looking and listen when hearing the Bible is a gnostic text, so are the  Vedas.

Ken Ammi

But see, you fell for it: they utterly corrupt at a most fundamental level and you want to believe that so you say they don’t distort what is written in the Bible, just what people think of the Bible which is simply note the case at all.

It’s also just a fact that the Bible means certain things, certain main/major things–such as about the nature of God and the nature of humanity: which two biggies–and so anything that contradicts those are violations of it.

You seem to be saying that you are convinced that the way you see the Gnostic texts is the only true and actual, but that anything else that doesn’t coincide with this view, such as the Bible as it has been understood for millennia, will be thrown away or clumsily (pseudo) force fitted.

Marcin_R

forget for a moment the texts and what is meant by gnostic. They are only pointers, they try to point at the Actual, reality as it truly is.

So when I say the actual this is what I am referring to, THIS! right here, right now!

But you said it yourself, for millennia people shy away from this and console themselves with mental imagery, notions and beliefs of God. How do I know these are mere imaginings, fabrications of the mind?

Because they are only thoughts, like poor reflections, stories that we tell ourselves.

All this happens in our heads!

For this reason God will never be what we think it is, the world is not what we think it is. You are not what you take yourself to be.

When we believe our thoughts, you can say when we believe the father of lies, that’s when our actual experience is distorted.

We view the world through our beliefs and not how it actually is.

When we view things from our own experience then things like the Bible unfold with new dimensions, it becomes rich and multilayered. And what once sounded like stories and events reveals to be poetry, parables and allegories.

Written through divine guidance they speak about things hidden from us but in plain sight, even things that we can’t put into words.

Ken Ammi

Wait, but on Gnosticism “reality as it truly is” is a corruption created corrupt by a senile god—supposedly, the God of the Bible, no less.

Highlighted reply

Marcin_R

not sure what you mean by that, but when you say the biblical God, what exactly are you referring to?

Is there really such a thing apart from each man’s individual notion?

We say “biblical God” and there is an image in our minds of what that is,

what I am saying is that we believe this image to be the actual God.

What I really want to say is God is always here, because there’s no such thing as here and now without a God, the universe cannot Not exist, God cannot Not exist, so reality as it always is – is always the case.

But our beliefs and imaginations is what veils the Actual.

Ken Ammi

I’m just pointing out one of the key features of Gnosticism which is that reality, the universe, the physical/material creation is a corruption created corrupt by a senile god—supposedly, the God of the Bible, no less.

No, I’m not referring to an image but to God.

And the universe can not exist since it was God’s choice to create it and He may have chosen otherwise: the universe is contingent upon God.

So yes, “reality as it always is – is always the case” but, again, on Gnosticism this reality is a corruption.

See, “Gospel of Judas, part 5 of 7 : AEON SOTER – Some Gnosis of Gnosticism”: https://truefreethinker.com/gospel-of-judas-part-5-of-7-aeon-soter-some-gnosis-of-gnosticism

Marcin_R

Ken Ammi not sure what you mean by that, but when you say the biblical God, what exactly are you referring to? Is there really such a thing apart from each man’s individual notion? We say “biblical God” and there is an image in our minds of what that is, what I am saying is that we believe this image to be the actual God. What I really want to say is God is always here, because there’s no such thing as here and now without a God, the universe cannot Not exist, God cannot Not exist, so reality as it always is – is always the case. But our beliefs and imaginations is what veils the Actual.

Ken Ammi

By the biblical God I’m referring to just that: the one and only God who is specifically revealed in the Bible.

Thus indeed, God is apart from each man’s individual notion since our epistemology doesn’t effect ontology.

I’m unsure who the “We” is to whom you refer but when I, at least, “say ‘biblical God’” I’m referring to God Himself, not just “an image in our minds” nor that “this image” is “the actual God.” The “universe cannot Not exist” because God did create it, I was just saying that it could have not existed if He had decided not to create it.

And on Gnosticism, the universe is ontologically corrupt by definition from it’s creation. Not so with the Bible and it’s, the real true, God who created a good creation that underwent a fall and will be redeemed.

Marcin_R

I can’t speak from a current experience but I have witnessed first hand how we are always One with Him, One with God. We cannot be apart from God because God is All there is. We are all One with God but we don’t feel it, delusion or illusion and we think we are separate. We have eaten the apple, our minds learned of duality so instead of seeing oneness we project our judgments and divisions. We identify with this, our identity, memory, conditioning, our beliefs, the conceptual contents of our minds so we are banished from eden. We don’t live with God. what I mean by universal is just that, All encompassing, the whole of existence. Christian not as a religion or something we identify with but as a mode of being. Compassion, Truth, Humility, Peace, Awareness; these are what it means to be a Christian. You could belong to another religion and still be a Christian, you could even be in another galaxy and as long as you are your true Self you are Christian. All these qualities I mentioned is what we all truly are, deep in the core we are all Christ like.

Ken Ammi

So, basically, you’re saying that when some guys fly an airplane into a building and murder thousands of people in the name of a false god then they were “always One with Him, One with God…cannot be apart from God because God is All there is.”

Marcin_R

Ken Ammi what you’re showing me is that you didn’t listen to a word I said. Listening means, neither agree or disagree, to stop all judgment for this brief moment while hearing so we can simply understand what the person is saying. If we can’t do that then we are not really communicating.

Ken Ammi

I apologize if I mistook you but that seemed to be one conclusion of what you were saying so, how is it not?

Well, that ended it since no more replies were forthcoming.

See my various books here.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A plea: I have to pay for server usage and have made all content on this website free and always will. I support my family on one income and do research, writing, videos, etc. as a hobby. If you can even spare $1.00 as a donation, please do so: it may not seem like much but if each person reading this would do so, even every now and then, it would add up and really, really help out. Here is my donate/paypal page.

Due to robo-spaming, I had to close the comment sections. However, you can comment on my Twitter page, on my Facebook page, or any of my other social network sites all which are available here.

Manmade tradition vs. Biblical doctrine on Fallen Angels and Giants

This discussion ensued due to the video About Fallen Angels and Giants by Rick Renner of Renner Ministries.

A certain @michaelszczys8316 commented

I don’t believe it was ‘ fallen ‘ angels that mated with women, at least not previously fallen.  Rather Holy Watcher angels that were still loyal to God and in charge of watching over people of the earth. They were fine until Satan enticed them to lust after the women and desire to have for themselves. Also he enticed the WOMEN to lure the angels and cause them to fall from their position at that point.

It seems many of these church fathers held the same view.

I, @kenammi355, replied

I’m pretty okay with that view. The original, traditional, and majority view among the earliest Jewish and Christians commentators, starting in BC days, was the “Angel view” as I proved in my book, “On the Genesis 6 Affair’s Sons of God: Angels or Not?: A Survey of Early Jewish and Christian Commentaries Including Notes on Giants and the Nephilim.”

@michaelszczys8316

first time I seriously read Genesis 6 as a teen I understood it as ‘ angels ‘ and human women getting together and begetting ‘ giants ‘ or children that grew to be gigantic.

I also took the ‘ mighty men which were of old ‘ to be where all the Greek God stories came from.

Good thing I was reading King James Bible which said ‘ giants ‘ or I wouldn’t have known what the heck ‘ nephilim ‘ were.

@kenammi355

That’s interesting because I will submit to you that you also don’t know what the heck “giants” were.

But let’s check with these key questions:

What’s the usage of the vague, generic, subjective, multi-usage and modern English word “giants” in English Bibles?

What’s your usage of the vague, generic, subjective, multi-usage and modern English word “giants”?

Do those usages agree?

Now, I got a hint as to your usage since you wrote, “grew to be gigantic” (whatever that means) so focus on the English Bible’s usage and whether your usage agrees.

@michaelszczys8316

all I know is that when I first read that I understood it to mean people much bigger than NBA basketball players.

I had already heard plenty of stories about ‘ Greek gods ‘ and understood it as that was where all the Greek God stories and legends came from.

Simple as that.

Almost 50 years ago.

Over the years when I read of finding huge skeletons and mummies it fit together just fine as to where they came from.

@kenammi355

Actually, that’s a very good lesson to learn since you noted, “all I know is” and that it’s, “when I first read that.”

Thus, please pay attention to someone who has familiarized himself with over two millennias worth of relevant data. Also, don’t go by the first thing you thought of when you read one vague, generic, subjective, multi-usage and modern English word and especially not before you understand it’s usage: which differs from your usage–so, BTW, it’s correct and you’re mistaken ;o)

Ergo, “giants” in the Bible has utterly nothing whatsoever to do with, “people much bigger” (with “much” being as vague, generic, subjective, multi-usage as “giants”) or, “huge skeletons” (with “huge” being as vague, generic, subjective, multi-usage as “giants” or “much”).

@michaelszczys8316

you just don’t get it, do you?

@kenammi355

Don’t get what you mean by “giants” well yes and no: yes I do and you’re misusing that term and so are not agreeing with the biblical usage and no since you refused to answer the key questions. Fascinatingly, I’ve asked those key questions to dozens and dozens (and dozens) of people who go on and on (and on) about “giants” and literally zero have replied.

@michaelszczys8316

no, you don’t seem to get how I, myself, personally, as a young man,  uneducated in Bible or ancient languages, one of the very first times I even read Genesis at all, when I got to reading Genesis 6, I instantly and automatically understood it to mean that angelic beings came to earth and had sexual relations with the human women of earth, thereby producing offspring that were of immense size.

I had already heard plenty about Greek gods and all their stories and immediately and automatically I understood that the Genesis 6 happenings were the origin of where the Greek God stories came from.

All by myself, no ancient language professors guiding me.

I didn’t know much of anything Bible previously, and I didn’t start at the top knowing all about ancient Hebrew and Greek before reading.

I read it, that’s what I saw, that’s what I understood, and it still goes today 50 years later.

I can’t possibly spell it out any plainer.

@kenammi355

Indeed, “angelic beings came to earth and had sexual relations with the human women of earth” but there’s literally zero indication that they produced offspring that were of immense size (with, “immense” being just as vague, generic, subjective, and multi-usage as, “giants”).

So, that it was your first impression means that you now have more data and need to change your mind. So, you spelled it out any quite plainly: you made a mistake half a century ago and it’s about time you correct it.

The word you’re reading as “giants” either merely renders “Nephilim” in two verses or “Rephaim” in 98% of other usages and never even hints at anything about any sort of size whatsoever.

Thus, that was the answer to the key question about the English Bible’s usage and since yours has nothing to do with it then the answer to the last key question is no: your usage is not in agreement with the English Bible’s usage.

I’ve no idea what, “Greek gods” have to do with the size of Nephilim.

@michaelszczys8316

all those huge impossible to build stone monuments and pyramids around the world were built by primitive people with stone hammers and copper chisels.

All those skeletons and mummies of people more than 9 feet tall were just people all over the world suffering from agromegaly and pituitary problems.

The ones bigger than that were from Alpha Centauri

I should have had you with me back in 1970s to tell me how my thinking was all wrong.

When I read something I could have consulted with you before thinking.

When I was younger yet and read in school books how 2 and 2 equals 4 I should have had you to consult with on whether it was correct mathematics or not.

You could have told me about the English language may have several different versions of 2 and a few different meanings of 4 that would give a whole different answer , if I just checked with you first.

@kenammi355

Now you’re pulling the same issue avoidance tactics that Atheists use all of the time. It’s simple: you merely assumed that you knew to what giant refers and you don’t know the English Bible’s usage. And to make it all worse, now you’re flatly refusing to let facts get into the way of a good ol’ tall-tale you invented. That’s no way to sharpen iron with iron.

@michaelszczys8316

we’re all done here

@kenammi355

Shalom to you and yours.

See my various books here.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A plea: I have to pay for server usage and have made all content on this website free and always will. I support my family on one income and do research, writing, videos, etc. as a hobby. If you can even spare $1.00 as a donation, please do so: it may not seem like much but if each person reading this would do so, even every now and then, it would add up and really, really help out. Here is my donate/paypal page.

Due to robo-spaming, I had to close the comment sections. However, you can comment on my Twitter page, on my Facebook page, or any of my other social network sites all which are available here.