Goliath as “Massive Gigantic Size – Nephilim – Giant Human”

The following discussion took place due to a post titled, “Goliath – ReCreating His Massive Gigantic Size – Nephilim – Giant Human” which was about, “What would the Biblical giant Goliath’s height look like? We demonstrated to the teen group our 11ft. tall Goliath doll to their amazement. You like giant humans?”

I call the person “Annon” since we had this discussion via email and not on the open web.

Ken Ammi:

I was hoping to find out upon what the info posted here is based: [URL]

Annon:

Taking 6 cubits and a span

We used the royal cubit of 20.6 inches adding the span of 9″ we arrive at a height of 11.06 ft.

Now, we picked up that discussion in another thread since I had also written this:

I was consulting your YouTube channel and since I’ve written some nine books on Nephilology, I wondered if you might be interested in having me on for a show.

Annon:

Nice to meet you. What is “Nephiololgy”

Always happy to collaborate.

Ken Ammi:

Nice to meet you as well and thanks for following up.

I call myself a Systematic Biblical Paranormologist and part of that is studying Nephilology which is just that: the study of Nephilim.

So, why opt for a royal cubit?

Annon:

We opted for it for two reasons.

1.) David may have used it.

2.) Ellen White said Goliath was at least 10.5ft. tall.

What is a “Paranormologist” ?

Ken Ammi:

Most interesting.

So, the qualifying term is that David “may have” used it so that is an unknown, an assumption. I’m also unsure why we should think that it was David that measured Goliath.

What were White’s sources for concluding that Goliath was at least 10.5ft. tall?

A paranormologist (I likely coined that term) studies the paranormal. In this case, I’ve attempted to specialize in paranormal entities and events mentioned in the Bible.

Annon:

What were White’s sources for concluding that Goliath was at least 10.5ft. tall? (her visions)

and then I turned to the existing menu of cubits at David’s time and see that there was this (royal) cubit that had a near match.

Ken Ammi:

I see.

I suppose that I’m unsure we should base our view of Goliath upon supposing David measured him, supposing he used a royal cubit (for some unknown reason), and supposing visions.

Yet, I actually have no bone to pick with how tall he was since that has nothing to do with anything as far as I know.

I will note that you seem to also be relying on the Masoretic text exclusively which would typically be calculated as having him at just shy of 10 ft. Yet, the earlier LXX, and earlier Dead Sea Scrolls, and earlier Flavius Josephus have him at just shy of 7 ft.

Also, I was confused about him being referred to as, “… – Nephilim – Giant Human” since 1) he was not a Nephil but was a Repha and 2) if he was a Nephil then he would only be half-human.

Annon:

The nephilim contrary to most ancient accounts  and todays popular belief are wrong.

The daughters of men were human and the sons of god were from the line of righteous Seth – human. Besides even if the sons of god were angels, it would be an unfallen angel. And that does not fit the narrative.  No where in scripture, from my understanding, is a fallen angel ever referred to or titled as a “son of god”. In scripture.

Ken Ammi:

That view of Nephilim’s parentage is a late dated one, it’s not the original, traditional, and majority view among the earliest Jews and Christians.

I would wonder why it was exclusively female, “daughters of men” and exclusively male “sons of god…from the line of righteous Seth.”

“if the sons of god were angels, it would be” the act that caused them to become fallen.

So, they were “sons of God” who saw human women, did what they did, and were then considered sinners.

Jude and 2 Peter 2 both refer to a sin of Angels (Jude correlates it with sexual sin) so if they were not talking about Gen 6 then what were they talking about?

In any case, referring to Goliath as a “Nephilim” is 1) referring to him in the plural and 2) misidentifying him.

Annon:

There was a war in heaven that took place before the creation of the Earth. 1/3 of the angels sided with Lucifer.

And cast to Earth. Adam and Eve were created shortly after. So you are saying this theory states or implies that other angels fell after the line was drawn, in heaven that the war took place, when the 1/3 left their righteous position including Lucifer who was one of the two covering angels? Angels leaving heaven after all this to join those on planet earth years later. Kind of a second exodus from heaven.

That means, if this did happen, the very act of leaving heaven, means their decision was equal to those in the the war that preceded it.  And they became fallen the moment they left heaven. Therefore they would not be a “son of god” by the time they reached earth because their sin started, in this case, as soon as coveteousness and lust entered into their heart even before their physicl act was committed.

So it would violate logic and scriptural reasoning to think a heavenly angel, surviving the war in heaven and being on the good side of those 2/3’s and seeing the carnage, the vacuum in heaven, seeing what it did to the 1/3 of their brethren, seeing what sin did to Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel, the Earth being cursed twice and then decide because they like the look of a woman, to leave heaven and become not just a biological father but a husband that came home from work everyday to his home he built or bought and made a family.

Ken Ammi:

The only known “war in heaven” is a posts-Jesus ascension event so it either took place in the years AD or has still not taken place: see Revelation 12.

Thus, it was not before Adam and Eve were created and so no, I’m not saying, “other angels fell after the line was drawn.” Rather, I’m saying that Gen 3 records when Satan fell, Gen 6 records when the Angels fell and, again, Rev 12 tell us that the war was or will be after Jesus’ ascension.

Also, Lucifer was not a covering Angel since he’s not an Angel, he’s a Cherub.

Annon:

First off I appreciate the opportunity to dialogue on these topics. Iron always sharpens iron and your intelligent

approach of reasoning gives me opportunity to relook and think regarding the positions I’ve taken.

That said, may I ask your understanding on what precipitated Adam and Eve’s creation and fall.

Meaning I had identified that there was a war and 1/3 of the angels were on Earth to get ready to

tempt our first parents. From your understanding of scripture, how do you understand the origin of evil and the order of events

Pre-creation and shortly after the creation week?

Ken Ammi:

I too appreciate interaction. I’ve come to find that when we seek to sharpen iron with iron–someone tends to get cut ;o)

As for, “the origin of evil and the order of events Pre-creation and shortly after the creation week”: one issue is that we are told precious little about those issues: which means that we need to take the little that we are told very carefully.

Here is my chronological understanding:

The original rebellion took place within the mind of a Cherub who, “said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.”

The original temptation is recorded in Gen 3 when the serpent/Satan/Cherub introduced his, “I will be like the most High” thought to Eve, “ye shall be as gods.” That record his sinful action,  that is when he acted on his rebellion, that is when he fell.

Rev 12 is the key to the chronology: Satan is already described as, “a great red dragon” who with, “his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth” so that he fell first and once he was already fallen Angels fell later–with Gen 6 recording their sinful action, when they acted on their lust, that is when they fell.

Then, “she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne” which is Jesus’ whole Earthly life until His ascension.

Then, “there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels.”

Thus, there was no fall of anyone anywhere until the Gen 3 timeline when the Cherub fell.

Concurrent with that, there was the fall of humans.

Then there was the fall of Angels.

After Jesus’ ascension there was or will be a war in heaven–it seems to me that the incarcerated Angels Jude and 2 Peter 2 mention are symbolically described as being released in Rev 9, they then wreak havoc on Earth, then join Satan in the war, then are defeated, and then are condemned.

Annon:

Ok I got you Ken.

So your understanding was that Lucifer was the only angel pre-creation of the Earth that fell?

Ken Ammi:

Not at all:

1) He’s not an Angel, he’s a Cherub,

2) It was not pre-creation, it was during the Gen 3 timeline.

The Gen 3 timeline marks the first fall of any “heavenly” being and also the fall of humanity.

Annon:

What is the difference do you believe in Angels vs. Cherubs?

Ken Ammi:

They, along with Seraphim, have different job titles, different job functions, and look different from one another: they are different categories of being.

Angels are messengers and look just like human males.

Cherubim are guardians and have four faces, four wings, hoof-like feet, etc.

Annon:

Thank you Ken.

Ken Ammi:

Thank you in turn. So, will you edit the page to, at least, accurately identify Goliath as a Repha (tribe) and/or of the Anakim (clan) rather than “Nephilim”?

Annon:

Negative. Goliath, King Og, the antediluvians, the giants of the promised land are all “giants” and if the Bible uses the Hebrew word nephilim to translate into the English word Giant, meaning large in size, then Goliath qualifies.

Ken Ammi:

Oh my, now we have a series of problems:

Goliath and King Og were not even close to being antediluvians: they lived centuries post-flood.

When you say “the giants of the promised land are all ‘giants’” that is not only circular but since you say “the Bible uses the Hebrew word nephilim” I can tell that you are actually basing that on one single verse: you’re relying exclusively on Num 13:33 which is part of an “evil report” by utterly unreliable guys whom God rebuked.

So, now you have to literally just invent an un-biblical way to get Nephilim past the flood (which would imply that God failed).

But when you say Nephilim is what is “translate[d] into the English word Giant” that is myopic: in some English Bibles Nephilim is rendered (not even translated) into Giants in only two verses, 98% of all other usages of Giants it is rendering Rephaim.

Also, contextual to the English Bible’s usage “Giant” is not “meaning large in size” since the way that English word ended up in some English Bibles is that they were following the LXX which has Nephilim and Rephaim (and gibborim) as “gigantes” which merely means “earth-born” (as in born of Gaia) so that it does not even imply anything about size at all.

Annon:

To me the whole issue of giants is actually pretty simple.

Adam and Eve were giants.

The human race was taller, longer lived and smarter than we are today.

We dumbed down since the fall and especially after the flood which accelerated this process.

The hold outs like Goliath remained genetically larger for sometime after the flood.

I believe once we get aboard the ark, my prediction is we’ll find giant built in chairs and beds.

So I understand there an several titles or names for different giant races in the Bible.

But the above summary is where myself and the seventh day adventist church’s position is

on this fascinating subject.

Ken Ammi

Friend, it is as if you are not applying the biblical and linguistic data that I am providing to you.

I noted that in the English Bibles that use the word “giants,” it implies nothing whatsoever about height at all but you use it to refers to something vague about height.

Now, there is no indication that “Adam and Eve were” whatever you might mean by “giants” but I see that you mean something generic about being, “taller”—whatever that means.

Since I noted that Goliath didn’t live until centuries post-flood, why do you call him one of the, “hold outs”? Especially since you know that you claim how big he was based on three assumptions rather than on the preponderance of the best and earliest evidence which I provided to you.

So, when you say, “there an several titles or names for different giant races in the Bible” that is not the issue at all. There are no “giant” “races” (there is only one race, the human race) in the Bible: you are just misreading and so are misunderstanding the usage of the English word “giants”—which I already explained to you.

Just be careful that you are not so very taken by the fascination of your theory that you simply neglect all of the facts of which you are being made aware.

Annon:

genetic expression has to come from somewhere.

If Goliath was an acromegalic giant, then case closed on him.

But he wasn’t.

He was and his family was a genetic expression of days gone by.

If you look back in the 1800’s when the fraud of the Cardiff Giant was perpetuated.

The atheist who created this giant hoax did this to mees with people who naturally back then associated

preflood people with giant humans.

Christians don’t have that same connection anymore. But regulate a long standing perpetuated lie that humans and angels mated and produced

giants. Which to me has so many holes and it only solves one possible answer to one question, the interpretation of Genesis 6:4

Ken Ammi

Friend, keep a few things in mind:

You refer to a post-flood “genetic expression” of something vague about subjectively unusual height but the only reason that you believe in pre-flood subjectively unusual height is because someone told you to believe that many, many millennia post-flood.

Thus, the Bible knows of no such thing,

You note, “If Goliath was an acromegalic giant” but recall that you only think that he was a “giant” because of three open assumptions and one hidden one: 1) assuming David measured him (for which we’ve no evidence), 2) assuming David measured him using a royal cubit (for some unknown reason and for which we’ve no evidence), 3) assuming that one vision from many, many millennia after the fact is reliable (for which we’ve no evidence), and the hidden assumption that the starting point should be the Masoretic family of manuscripts and not the three earlier sources I mentioned to you.

Now, you say Goliath wasn’t an acromegalic giant but was, along with his family, exhibiting, “a genetic expression of days gone by” for which, again, we have no evidence whatsoever.

So it all comes down to the mere assertion, “preflood people with giant humans” for which, again, we have no evidence whatsoever.

Now, the Angel view of Genesis 6:4 is the original, traditional, and majority view among the earliest Jews and Christians alike for many, many centuries—your view is actually the late-comer. But that has not much of anything to do with how you get Nephilim past the flood (implying that God failed along the way), how you determine the height of people for whom we’ve no reliable physical description, etc. See, you have to invent un-biblical tall-tales just to get post-flood Nephilim: whether they are 100% human or not.

Annon:

The ceiling of human height was 12-15ft.

Do you believe the antediluvians lived to be 800-900 literal years?

Ken Ammi:

If the ceiling of human height was 12-15ft. it matters not since we’ve no reliable indication of anyone even close to that height.

I’ve not looked into the issue of whether the antediluvians lived to be 800-900 literal years but don’t see why not.

That brought the discussion to and end as no more replies were forthcoming.

See my various books here.

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Dean Smith’s: What to say about The Bible and its GIANTS: What does archaeology have to say

This pertains to Dean Smith’s “The Bible and its GIANTS: What does archaeology have to say,” Open the Word, March 11, 2022.

Smith carefully and accurately notes, “in Joshua 12:4, where we have a reference to Og, the King of Bashan, who is described as the last of the Rephaim. We have no idea how big Og was, other than his iron bed was nine cubits long or about 13 feet (ca. 4 metres) in length (Deuteronomy 3:11).”

Smith adds, “The ancient Jewish historian Josephus who lived between 37 AD and 100 AD cited giants in one of his books entitled the Antiquities of the Jews” and that, “he added one small tidbit of information. Despite their immense size, they also had different facial features than the Jews”:

For which reason they removed their camp to Hebron; and when they had taken it, they slew all the inhabitants.

There were till then left the race of giants, who had bodies so large, and countenances so entirely different from other men, that they were surprising to the sight, and terrible to the hearing.

The bones of these men are still shown to this very day, unlike to any credible relations of other men.

A key question to post of Josephus is what were his sources? Here he refers to, “giants,” Rephaim, who were of, “bodies so,” subjectively, “large” along with the unique claim that they also had, “countenances so entirely different” which made them, “surprising to the sight” and another unique feature, “terrible to the hearing.”

The question is whence did Josephus acquire such data—and is it data or is it just folklore?

As for the, “bones of these men,” did he personally see them or is he just reporting that it has been reported to him that they are on display? If he personally saw them or not, does not the fact that they are, “unlike to any credible relations of other men” mean or imply that they were not human bones, not human Rephaim bones, but were the bones of large animals?

Smith notes that the reference to bones:

…leads to a fascinating interview that Dr. Chris Smith from Cambridge University in Britain had with Professor Lee Berger on his evolutionary podcast The Naked Scientist in 2007. Berger is an American-born paleo-anthropologist who works at the University of Witwatersrand in Johannesburg, South Africa. In 2016, Time Magazine recognized Berger as one of the top 100 most influential Americans in the world.

As part of his podcast, Smith actually flew to South Africa to interview Berger on a race of giant humans that once roamed Earth. According to Berger, these giants existed about 300,000 years ago…

Similar to what Josephus mentioned, Berger then proceeded to show Smith the thighbones of these giant men that were so large, Berger said it was impossible to calculate how big they actually were.

This last bit is rather odd since it is precisely such bones, especially thighbones, that would allow us to calculate how big they actually were.

In any case:

They have even reproduced replicas of their skulls from the fragments that they discovered.

In the interview, Berger stated:

“They are huge. That’s so big we can’t even calculate how big this individual was. You would need an NBA basketball player to get someone of that height. Someone like this would have been something like over seven feet tall.”

I realize that I am mashing together Smith’s and Berger’s comments but, “it was impossible to calculate” but it seems we can take a wild—and wildly vague—guess: subjectively “huge” and subjectively “big” but so very subjectively hugely big that, “we can’t even calculate” but why not?

And how is it that they were so very huge and big that it is incalculable yet, their height is estimated to that of, “NBA basketball player…over seven feet tall”?

Smith comments, “In other words, they were Goliath-sized” which I would say is overestimating but, fair enough for our purposes. He adds:

Of course, this leads to the bigger issue. Were these giants a one-off, like Robert Wadlow, meaning that the individual grew to a gigantic size because of a medical issue, such as a misfiring pituitary gland.

When Dr. Smith raised this possibility, Berger said absolutely not, they were part of a race of giants, because they are finding the remains of these giant people all across Africa.

I would be curious to know to what, quantitatively, he refers by, “they…giants…they…remains…these giant people,” all in the plural, who are, “all across Africa”? To how many such people is he referring?

In any case, this is clearly a case of subjectivism: they huge-big people were huge-big for their contextual average—even when some Africans, such as Ethiopians, are subjectively taller than other Africans, such as Pygmies.

Moreover:

In the interview, Berger told Smith:

“No because we found a lot of them. Everywhere we find them we find them enormous. These are what we call archaic Homo sapiens. Some people refer to them as Homo heidelbergensis. These individuals are extraordinary. They are GIANTS.”

So, to how many such people is he referring? The answer is, “a lot” which is subjectively generic. So now, they—however many “they” are—are subjectively huge, subjectively big, subjectively enormous, subjectively extraordinary, and subjectively GIANTS.

Furthermore:

Apologetics Press’s Dr. Miller adds that Berger description of this group as being archaic, in Biblical terms, would put them in the pre and post-flood era.

In a follow-up to his interview with Dr. Berger, Dr. Smith added that humanity went through a period of ‘giantism.’ He said:

“One of the most interesting thing that the fossil record reveals is that we went through a period of extreme giantism. These were people routinely over seven feet tall, they were huge.”

So, while, the Bible has been mocked relentlessly for its stories about a race of giants, these ancient writers were right all along.

Now we have it that, “this group”—huge, big, enormous, extraordinary, GIANTS: who did not even make it to 8 ft.—were chronologically from the “pre and post-flood era.”

Apparently, the timeframe of, “pre and post-flood,” which covers all of history, featured, huge-big-enormous-extraordinary-GIANTS who suffered from giantism, extreme giantism, and that extreme giantism resulted in people who were—behold!!!—over seven feet tall which is what is meant by, huge.

Smith notes, “So, while, the Bible has been mocked relentlessly for its stories about a race of giants, these ancient writers were right all along.” Well, if by giants we mean between 7 ft. and 8 ft. then, pray tell, who has or ever would deny any such a thing? Who would appeal to that in order to relentlessly mock the Bible? How could evidence of such heights accredit the Bible?

See my various books here.

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A plea: I have to pay for server usage and have made all content on this website free and always will. I support my family on one income and do research, writing, videos, etc. as a hobby. If you can even spare $1.00 as a donation, please do so: it may not seem like much but if each person reading this would do so, even every now and then, it would add up and really, really help out. Here is my donate/paypal page.

Due to robo-spaming, I had to close the comment sections. However, you can comment on my Twitter page, on my Facebook page, or any of my other social network sites all which are available here.

Review of Paul “Dr. Reluctant” Henebury’s review of Douglas Van Dorn’s book “Giants: Sons of the Gods”

I have already posted My review of Zachary Garris’ review of Douglas Van Dorn’s book “Giants Sons of the Gods” which served as a good double whammy since I could review Garris and Van Dorn silmultaneously. Well, I’m taking the same opportunity with Henebury herein due to his article A Review of “Giants: Sons of the Gods” by Douglas Van Dorn.

Henebury notes that he, “attended London Theological Seminary and Tyndale Theological Seminary (M.T.S., M.Div., Ph.D)…have been a Church-planter, pastor, and a professor of Systematic Theology and Apologetics.  Also, I was editor of the Conservative Theological Journal. I am now the President of Telos Theological Ministries and its little school, Telos Biblical Institute…”

Now Van Dorn’s book title and Henebury opening paragraph’s reference to, “giants” begs these key questions—so we will have to see if they are answered along the way:

What’s the usage of the vague, generic, subjective, multi-usage and modern English word “giants” in English Bibles?

What’s their usage of the vague, generic, subjective, multi-usage and modern English word “giants”?

Do those two usages agree?

Henebury notes, “The book is dedicated to Michael Heiser…he was a good man who brought foreword some important truths about the supernatural realm in the teaching of Scripture. I do not endorse all of his ideas. I don’t agree with his ‘Divine Council’ views” and I too appreciate Dr. Heiser’s works and yet, his Nephilology wasn’t biblical, and he tended to create more problems than he solved—see these articles for examples:

Review of Amy Richter and Michael Heiser on four Enochian Watcher related women in Jesus’ genealogy

Rebuttal to Dr. Michael Heiser’s “All I Want for Christmas is Another Flawed Nephilim Rebuttal”

I also featured him in my book The Scholarly Academic Nephilim and Giants: What do Scholarly Academics Say About Nephilim Giants?

I also agree with Paul Henebury in that, “Van Dorn’s book begins with him considering and rightly rejecting the ‘Sethite’ [mis]understanding of Genesis 6” which is a late comer of a view based on myth, prejudice, and only creates more problems than it solves (so, more the zero).

The original, traditional, and majority view among the earliest Jewish and Christians commentators, starting in BC days, was the “Angel view” as I proved in my book, On the Genesis 6 Affair’s Sons of God: Angels or Not? A Survey of Early Jewish and Christian Commentaries Including Notes on Giants and the Nephilim.

It is noted that Van Dorn, “begins with an examination of ‘Pre-Flood Giants’” which refers to Nephilim specifically and exclusively, and he, “takes Genesis 3:15 as referring to actual descendants both of Eve and of Satan (44-47). Satan’s physical seed would be the giants (nephilim, gibborim).”

So, at this point we can confirm that by “giants” Henebury is referring to “nephilim, gibborim” which, by definition, means the mighty (gibborim) offspring of sons of God and daughters of men.

Now, as for, “actual descendants both of Eve and of Satan…Satan’s physical seed” there’s literally not a single word in the entire Bible about Eve—and Adam—having sex with Satan: see my five volume book series debunking that mere assertion of a historically essentially non-existent view, Cain As Serpent Seed of Satan.

Thereafter, “he goes to 1 Enoch” which is Bible contradicting folklore from centuries, if not millennia, after the Torah: see my book In Consideration of the Book(s) of Enoch. Paul Henebury notes, “Many writers in this area are guilty of placing far too much weight on extra-biblical works like the books of ‘Enoch’ and ‘Jasher,’ of circuitous and hyper-conjectural Bible interpretation, and of whacky theories about the pre-Adamic earth. Van Dorn always (or nearly always) let’s the reader know when he is speculating…” Note that Jasher is just a modern day hoaxed fraud: see my book The Apocryphal Nephilim and Giants: Encountering Nephilim and Giants in Extra-Biblical Texts.

Van Dorn, “fully acknowledges is not inspired but believes contains some truth…and was resorted to by Jude and 2 Peter” yet, much in the selfsame manner in which Paul resorted to Greek poets.

Paul Henebury notes, “Van Dorn…believes the giants may have reached up to 12 feet tall (e.g. Og of Bashan, 125-126). He puts Goliath’s height at the upper end of 9 1/2 ft” so this is very problematic.

Thus far, “giants” referred to Nephilim, now the implication is that Nephilim were of that height, and that Og and Goliath were Nephilim.

Yet, this seems to widen the range of usage of the word “giants,” we’ve no reliable physical description of Nephilim so even guessing at their height is a non-issue, and Og and Goliath were Rephaim, not Nephilim—nor could they have been since Nephilim lived strictly pre-flood but the utterly unrelated Rephaim lived exclusively post-flood.

Moreover, we’ve no physical description of Og (not until wild folklore from centuries, if not millennia, after the Torah) and Goliath was that height as per the Masoretic text yet, the earlier LXX and the earlier Dead Sea Scrolls and the earlier Flavius Josephus all have him at just shy of 7 ft.—compared to the average Israelite male who was 5.0-5.3 ft. in those days.

See my book The King, Og of Bashan, is Dead: The Man, the Myth, the Legend—of a Nephilim Giant? wherein I wrote extensively about Og and also Goliath for that matter. I supposed I’ve been around the block with these issues a few times when I’ve essentially written entire books about every aspect.

TO Henbury, “His argumentation looks sound and I have no problem believing these proportions. In fact, owing to the report of the spies in Numbers 13:33 that they ‘were like grasshoppers in our own sight, and so we were in their sight’ I have think Van Dorn’s estimates are quite conservative.”

Note the vague nature of the reference to, “the spies” and the lack of interacting with the narrative but only providing us half of a verse. It was not, “the spies” so the question becomes how is it sound to rely, exclusively, on one single sentence form an, “evil report” by ten of the spies who were unreliable and were rebuked by God?

They just made up a fear-mongering scare-tactic tall-tale. We will have to see if Henebury elucidates just how it is that God meant to be rid of Nephilim via the flood but must have failed and the flood was much of a waste.

This is why I noted that we have no reliable physical description of them.

Next, Henebury notes, “the giants (nephilim, Rephaim, Anakim, etc.)” so now we are dealing with a category error since, again, Nephilim were strictly pre-flood hybrids but Rephaim were strictly post-flood 100% humans—and Anakim were a clan of the Rephaim tribe: and that only non-LXX versions have unreliable guys who were rebuked by God claiming an unelucidated relation between Anakim and Nephilim doesn’t change these facts.

So, herein after we need to attempt to track to what Paul Henebury is referring by “giants” due to his usage (or usages) of the term.

We’re told that, “Van Dorn pulls in not only stories from Genesis 14, Exodus 17, Numbers 13, and Deuteronomy 3” only one of which (unreliably) pertains to Nephilim, non of which have anything to do with heights any more unusual than 7.5ft—tops, “but he introduces data from the ancient world, including the Americas…” but it is at times such as those when a reader must be very discerning. We already had both committing category errors and so we must be very careful about going cross-cultural since it becomes too easy to water down terminology to (consciously or not) give the merely appearance of correlation when there’s no such thing, in reality.

And there are gigantically huge obstacles between biblical doctrine and what may be expressed in whatever terms were parochially employed by other cultures. This is especially the case due to the aforementioned issue of the Nephilim not making it past the flood in any way, shape, or form.

Paul Henebury notes, “I did not know that the ancient Christian writers are almost unanimous in their agreement of the existence of the giants” whatever anyone many have meant by that, “and in their belief that the spirits of the nephilim are the demons of today” which is based on folklore (namely Jubilees and 1 Enoch) from centuries, if not millennia, after the Torah: for a biblical view, please see my article, Demons Ex Machina: What are Demons?

In the end, we are told, “I gladly endorse the main ideas of Giants: Sons of the Gods…” but that’s just one of the huge problems: there’s literally zero indication that Rephaim were, “Sons of the Gods” and only one unreliable sentence about that Anakim were.

Now, I thought to delve in to Henebury’s comments section since interesting issues were raised.

One comment was by a certain Justin who noted:

…You write “Van Dorn takes Genesis 3:15 as referring to actual descendants both of Eve and of Satan (44-47).” Do you mean he thinks Eve and Satan mated?

I also have a question about stories from Genesis 14, Exodus 17, Numbers 13, and Deuteronomy 3. How do we account for the presence of Nephilim in the post-Flood world given that all life was destroyed in the Flood barring those on the Ark? Are we obliged to see a genetic link between the Nephilim in Gen 6 and these later post-Flood beings? Can we instead posit that there is no link but rather the same label was applied to creatures after the Flood because they too were giants?

Paul Henebury replied:

Van Dorn is not saying Eve had relations with the serpent. 

His view of post-deluge nephilim is that they came more than once. He mentions the Jewish legend that Og clung to the Ark, but rightly dismisses it as fabulous.

I left my point above as is since that’s the implication and just in case someone reads is that way and needs to follow up.

As for, “they came more than once” well, that’s simply biblically unjustifiable. And clearly, “the Jewish legend that Og clung to the Ark, but rightly dismisses it as fabulous” indeed, it dates from millennia after the Torah, is clearly folkloric, and it’s a category error since the Repha Og didn’t live until centuries post-flood.

Among other things, Justin replied:

You wrote: “His view of post-deluge nephilim is that they came more than once.” You mean that there was inter-breeding post Flood as well? Does that mean there have been people since (including now) who still carry Satan’s physical seed however distant?

Henebury didn’t reply to this so I will note that such is the logical conclusion (actually, il-logical, and il-theo-logical, and il-bio-logical) of post-flood Nephilology. It’s to the point that I had to write a chapter titled, “Nephil Kampf” in my book Nephilim and Giants as per Pop-Researchers: A Comprehensive Consideration of the claims of I.D.E. Thomas, Chuck Missler, Dante Fortson, Derek Gilbert, Brian Godawa, Patrick Heron, Thomas Horn, Ken Johnson, L.A. Marzulli, Josh Peck, CK Quarterman, Steve Quayle, Rob Skiba, Gary Wayne, Jim Wilhelmsen, et al.

That was because some post-flood Nephilologists actually claim that Christians will have to wipe out Nephilim and, oh, by the way, now-a-days the way to identify them is that they look just like regular humans. That’s just shockingly dangerously delusional.

A certain Jefferey Becker commented:

may I ask what Paul and everyone else thinks of Tim Chaffey’s book (“Fallen”)? Or of the two-volumes of Ryan Pitterson’s “Nephilim” series?

It’s simple: both Chaffey and Pitterson teach post-flood Nephilim so their Nephilology isn’t biblical (and my name appears favorably in Chaffey’s books since I assisted him with sources).

And I will leave this review at that.

See my various books here.

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Due to robo-spaming, I had to close the comment sections. However, you can comment on my Twitter page, on my Facebook page, or any of my other social network sites all which are available here.

Discussing “Do Angels and Demons Haunt People?” with an Atheist

The following discussion took place due to the Quora site question Do Angels and Demons Haunt People?

 

I, Ken Ammi, noted

By definition, loyal Angels would not “haunt,” they would guard.

Disloyal/fallen/sinful Angels are demons, in a roundabout way I elucidate in this article: Demons Ex Machina: What are Demons?

“So have I become your enemy by telling you the truth?” — Gal. 4:16

They would certainly “haunt.” Now, Jesus makes a very interesting when he’s metaphorically referring to a demons as a “strong man” and as “spirits”: he says that a demon may come out of a person and get demons “more wicked” than it to join it when it goes back in the person.

This shows us that while all demons are wicked, by definition, they still do have their own personalities—and levels of wickedness.

It’d seem that some would be more like secretaries, hanging around families (or however they divide up their domains), making notes, reporting back, etc. Such would be the ones who (besides their fraud-schtick) would every now and then actually feed info to a “psychic.”

Other would act out violently, we would call these poltergeists.

Also, “ghosts” are not dead people, but demons who sometimes pretend to be dead people.

For details, see my “What Does the Bible Say About…” series of books.

 

Jason Shearin replied

Prove every word of these insane claims

 

Ken Ammi

Friend, jumping from one discussion to another won’t alleviate your responsibility to begin at the beginning so, again: first justify your demand for proof from your worldview.

 

Jason Shearin

I repeat, claimant, prove your claims.

 

Ken Ammi

You’re, what, doubling, tripling, quadrupling, etc., on proving your utter inability to begin at the beginning so, again: first justify your demand for proof from your worldview.

 

Jason Shearin

Prove your claims, claimant

 

Ken Ammi

Why (besides that you say so)?

 

Jason Shearin

What world view? What claims?

No no no. You are not flipping this around on me.

You are the claimant. Claimants owe evidence of claims. So, claimant, prove your claims.

 

Ken Ammi

You’re still just demonstrating your (and your worldview’s) utter inability to begin at the beginning so, again: first justify your demand for proof from your worldview.

 

Jason Shearin

Justify my demand for proof?

I’ve already done thst but sure we can cover it again.

You are a claimant. True or false? True, you’re making claims.

Claimants owe evidence of the claims they make. True or false? True.

So, claimant, where’s your evidence supporting your claim?

 

Ken Ammi

Sure, let’s cover again how you justified your demand for proof on your worldview but systematically that is, chronologically not beginning with a conclusion as you do it.

See, you demand, “You are a claimant…you’re making claims. Claimants owe evidence of the claims they make” which means you’re merely running circles around yourself since your assertion is that you demand evidence because you demand that you demand evidence.

You don’t bother bothering with what makes you think that the, supposed, claimant is responsible for anything at all on your worldview.

 

Jason Shearin

Claimant, prove your claims and stop dodging

 

Ken Ammi

Now I’m convinced that you’re no just trolling but that you are genuinely unfamiliar of how to even have a systematic, critical thinking manner whereby to deal with issues—even though I am leading you through the process.

See, the reason that you can’t follow the process is because your worldview is a failure. That’s why you utterly ignore the process and just play a game of ignore and demand, ignore and demand, ignore and demand, ad inifitum.

So, here we go again, rather than asking, “How high?” when you begin with, “Jump!” I’m asking why, on your worldview, a “Claimant” (sure as you are since you keep positively affirming things) has to “prove” (not evidence?) their claims and why, on your worldview, a “Claimant” ought to “stop dodging”? What universal imperative does your worldview provide you for that sort of thing?

And, BTW, just because you say so isn’t a standard.

 

Jason Shearin

Final chance to fulfill the burden of proof as a claimant, and prove your claims.

Refuse 1 more time and I block, mute, and report you as a troll

 

Ken Ammi

So, in order words, you’re so incapable of engaging in reasoned discourse that you’re threatening me with censorship?

 

Jason Shearin

Prove your mother [****]ing claims

 

Ken Ammi

Do you mean because thus saith Jason? Don’t you find it odd that you can’t even justify demanding evidence, and now proof, from your worldview? Does that not alert you of your worldview’s fundamental level failure?

 

 

 

 

 

That brought the discussion to and end as no more replies were forthcoming.

 

See my various books here.

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Due to robo-spaming, I had to close the comment sections. However, you can comment on my Twitter page, on my Facebook page, or any of my other social network sites all which are available here.

Atheist can’t handle discussing Noah’s flood

The full question posted to the Quora site was In the biblical account of Noah’s flood, it is said that God used it to wipe out the Earth especially the Nephilim, but how could they get wiped out if they were giants, that was much more taller than any flood could ever be?

Keith White, “Former Scientist” mind you, commented

The Great Flood is a fiction!

And the story of it in the Bible ISN’T even original – it was copied from previous non-Christian religious scriptures.

The oldest flood story is one of the earliest fictional stories known to man, The Epic of Gilgamesh.

Recorded on 12 stone tablets this is thought to be among the first pieces of literature in history.

I, Ken Ammi, replied

That, “The Great Flood is a fiction!” is a mere assertion, a positive affirmation without proof.

That, “the story of it in the Bible,” allegedly, “ISN’T even original – it was copied from previous non-Christian religious scriptures,” is a generic logical fallacy, another positive affirmation without proof, and evidences that there was a “Great Flood” since so many ancient cultures recorded it.

Keith White

Ummm – If “many” ancient cultures recorded a flood – then didn’t God’s plan to wipe out all the sinners – other than Noah and his family – kind of fail?

And YOUR assertion that “The Great Flood” and “Noah and his Ark” are real – it is YOU that needs to provide proof – not for me to provide proof that something DIDN’T happen.

WTF is wrong with your fervent religious nutters that you don’t get that?

Ken Ammi

Friend, you seem to be suffering from some psycho-emotional problems.

I see you found an illogical way of running away from your positive affirmation without proof.

In that case, a best practice is to not make positive affirmation you can’t prove.

You also ran away from your generic logical fallacy.

Do logical fallacies matter on your worldview?

There’s no “If” about it: many ancient cultures recorded a flood.

Thereafter, that commonly known history was just that: commonly known history.

Keith White

I see – and all of this tripe from someone who believes in an imaginary Deity?

Ken Ammi

Let’s take stock:

You ran away from, “you found an illogical way of running away from your positive affirmation without proof.”

You ran away from, “You also ran away from your generic logical fallacy.”

You ran away from, “Do logical fallacies matter on your worldview?”

You ran away from, “many ancient cultures recorded a flood.”

And since you find yourself literally incapable for dealing with actual issues, you pull out the Atheist 101 tactic of being childish and running away.

You see that your worldview has utterly collapsed, it’s such an utter failure that it left you literally incapable of doing anything but being childish but rather then rebelling against it, you cherish it—“my precious!”—and keep going.

Very well then, you just positively affirmed that I believe in, “an imaginary Deity” so where is your proof? Also, what, on your worldview, would be wrong with an accidentally existing ape believing in, “an imaginary Deity”? Oh, and do you believe in the common ancestor?

That brought the discussion to and end as no more replies were forthcoming from the former scientist.

See my various books here.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A plea: I have to pay for server usage and have made all content on this website free and always will. I support my family on one income and do research, writing, videos, etc. as a hobby. If you can even spare $1.00 as a donation, please do so: it may not seem like much but if each person reading this would do so, even every now and then, it would add up and really, really help out. Here is my donate/paypal page.

Due to robo-spaming, I had to close the comment sections. However, you can comment on my Twitter page, on my Facebook page, or any of my other social network sites all which are available here.

Review of Ronald Hendel’s “The Landscape of Memory: Giants and the Conquest of Canaan”

Ronald Hendel (Professor of Hebrew Bible at the University of California, Berkeley who holds a Ph.D. from Harvard University) wrote a book chapter titled, “The Landscape of Memory: Giants and the Conquest of Canaan” within the book Collective Identity and Collective Memory: Deuteronomy and the Deuteronomistic History in Their Context.

Hendel notes, “The Anglo-Saxon poem, ‘The Ruin,’ contemplates the stone ruins of England, including the Roman city of Bath and the megaliths of Stonehenge, and attributes them to the work of ancient giants.” This denotes the fallacy of concluding that large things must have been built for and by large people.

As he puts it, “Where ruined stone structures mark the landscape, local lore often attributes them to the work of ancient giants” to which I will add: ’cause, why not?

He notes, “Historians also recount giant lore” to which I will add that they also recount little people lore, and hybrid lore, and more lore characters of every shape, color, and size than we can shake a giant stick at.

Yet, with whatever level of emphasis and/or qualifying terms, Hendel wrote that, “the Danish historian Saxo Grammaticus records the,” note this, “evidence of giants in his History of Denmark: ‘That the Danish area was once cultivated by a civilization of giants is testified by the immense stones planted upon ancestral barrows and caves.’”[1] This, again, denotes the fallacy of concluding that large things must have been built for and by large people and so can hardly be categorizable as evidence—it is just a huge jump to a gigantic conclusion.

Hendel Writes:

Saxo adds a comment that links Danish history with the Bible: “There is too little evidence to decide whether those who contrived these works were giants who lived after the irruption of the Flood.”

Saxo here refers to the antediluvian Nephilim in Gen 6:4, who were born to the sons of God and the daughters of humans, and who are translated in the Septuagint and Vulgate as γίγαντες/gigantes, “giants.”

The Nephilim “were on the earth in those days and also afterwards” (Gen 6:4), pointing forward to the Nephilim as giant inhabitants of Canaan in the era of Moses, on the verge of the conquest of Canaan (Num 13:33).

As Saxo observes, there is “little evidence” about these giants in postdiluvian time. Yet there is enough in texts from Numbers through Amos, particularly clustered in Deuteronomy and Joshua, to show their importance in biblical concepts of the conquest.

The aboriginal giants–who in the present age are no more – were an integral part of Israel’s identity and cultural memory.

Since we are tracking data vs. assertions vs. assertions about data, note that Hendel told us that Saxo, “records the evidence of giants” but Saxo himself, wrote, “There is too little evidence.” So, there is what is referred to as evidence yet, too little (as per some unelucidated standard or subjectivism).

Now, let us track the chronology: Saxo referred to “giants who lived after the irruption of the Floodpostdiluvian time” but Hendel takes us to “antediluvian” times instead—stand by.

Saxo was referring to subjectively unusual height so when Hendel appeals to Nephilim that brings this exploration to a full stop since we cannot claim that about them since we do not have a reliable physical description of them.

And appealing to “γίγαντες/gigantes, ‘giants’” is just committing the word-concept fallacy—much like the fallacy of large ruins ergo, giants.

We know all too well by now that merely quoting a fragment of a thought, 6:4a, and then making it mean whatever we want while actually believing an evil report. Thus, there is no indication whatsoever, and much against it, that 6:4 is pointing forward—it is actually pointing backward, back to 6:1.

We also know too well that there is no reliable indication whatsoever of, “Nephilim as giant inhabitants of Canaan in the era of Moses.”

As for, “enough in texts from Numbers through Amos…Deuteronomy and Joshua” well, we well know that they do not even hint at anything that can be viably referred to as, “show their importance in biblical concepts of the conquest” nor that they, “were an integral part of Israel’s identity and cultural memory.” The Rephaim, et al., were but not what Hendel means by giants.

Hendel then takes us to, “evidence of giants in the prehistory of Israel” since, “its environs was embedded in the landscape, in ruined walls and megaliths, which served as visible signs of the once formidable presence of the giants,” to which I will add: here we go again.

He is clearly pushing a narrative when he claims, “These stone ruins constitute a memoryscape, which inspired a cultural memory of ancient giants” yet, we have no indication that any landmark stood out for consideration in terms of having anything to do with giants. And yes, that is a fact even when it comes to what King James Version readers read as Valley of the Giants since, of course, that biblically means Valley of the Rephaim.

The narrative Hendel weaves is, as already seen but continuing, “According to our texts, the giants in the Promised Land met their end in the Israelite conquest, with a remnant surviving in Philistia until the era of David and with the Transjordanian giants destroyed by Israel’s eastern neighbors.”

According to our Hebrew texts, the Rephaim in the Promised Land met their end in the Israelite conquest, with a remnant surviving in Philistia until the era of David and with the Transjordanian Rephaim destroyed by Israel’s eastern neighbors.

Thus, any attempts at weaving a tall-tale fall apart.

Hendel quotes Brian Doak (see my book The Scholarly Academic Nephilim and Giants for a review of his views) since he, “observes, the biblical giants activate a conceptual boundary between chaos and order; the anomalous monster ‘represents a connection to primeval chaos, and stands as a barrier to creation and right rule.’”

Yet, Hendel’s point was:

In these memories, the giants frame a liminal era, beginning in an episode of chaotic sexuality before the Flood and ending in the violent origins of Israel and its neighboring territorial states…The giants inhabit and constitute the era of prehistory, with their roots in antediluvian chaos and their end in the decisive era of Israel’s ethno-political origins.

They are liminal creatures in a liminal time, whose demise marks the transition to present era, on this side of the deeds of fallen giants.

One problem is that, as it all too common—among pop-researchers and credentialed ones as well—he is using the word giants to imply three or four things without bothering to tell us, along the way, when, where, nor how he is changing his usage (he uses it to mean subjectively unusual height, and Nephilim, and Rephaim, and likely even Anakim).

For example, “In these memories, the Nephilim frame a liminal era, beginning in an episode of chaotic sexuality before the Flood and without relation to the violent origins of Israel and its neighboring territorial states since that was about Rephaim…The Nephilim inhabit and constitute the era of prehistory, with their roots in antediluvian chaos and their end in the flood, with the decisive era of Israel’s ethno-political origins pertaining to Rephaim.

Thus, when Hendel refers to, “They” he does not realize how accurate he is being, he is just speaking in the plural but actually, he is speaking about two wholly different and unrelated people groups.

He next appeals to, “some insights by Paul Karge and G. Ernest Wright. Karge proposed that ‘the representation of the aboriginal Rephaim as gigantic in popular belief arose by the interpretation of megalithic tombs, which were seen everywhere in the land as testimony to an ancient past’”—here we go again, again.

Also, what “representation of the aboriginal Rephaim as gigantic”? We would have to ask Hendel to what he is now referring by gigantic since a biblically accurate statement would refer to, “the representation of the aboriginal Rephaim as only subjectively unusually ‘tall’”—as if subjectively unusual height has anything to do with anything.

Hendel also notes, “Wright agreed, writing: ‘The Israelite tradition of giant Rephaim undoubtedly arose in part from the contemplation of megalithic structures especially in Transjordan”—again.

Now, when one is dealing with a group as ancient as “The Israelites” one cannot simply refer to their “tradition” since that begs the question: tradition from when—the Israelites of biblical days (and if so, which of those vast span of days?), the Second Temple Era Israelites, medieval, modern, etc.?[2]

Moreover, “He added that the stone ruins of Middle Bronze Age city walls were further stimulus to the belief in giants: ‘Hebrews viewing some of the cities of Canaan which we now know to have possessed walls as thick as eighteen feet, and often built of cyclopean masonry, might well have thought in terms of giants, just as did the Greeks.’”

Now, if—and that is a big IF—ancient Israelites took it upon themselves to believe in giants based on city walls, ruins, etc. it would just mean what it does in the case of Hendel, et al.: a case of the hop, skip, and a jump of large ergo, giants.

Did you catch the qualifying term? He wrote, “might well have.”

The narrative continues with, “parallels from European traditions…the testimony of Egyptian fellahin that the pyramids were the work of giants and the attribution of stone monuments to giants in Antioch, Syria.”

Interestingly, he notes, “Although there have been valuable recent studies of giants in the Bible and postbiblical literature, modern studies of the conquest tend to avoid the topic.” I know not but I would wonder if that is because it is largely a case of much ado about nothing, nothing to see here.

Yet, Hendel thinks, “This is presumably because giants are not historical, and most biblical scholars—following in the tracks of nineteenth century historicism—prefer things that are, or might be, historical. The giants are neglected in this area of scholarship.”

Again, “presumably because giants are not historical” can mean presumably because subjectively unusually tall people are not historical or presumably because Nephilim are not historical or presumably because Rephaim and/or Anakim are not historical.

As for historicity, Hendel notes, “We are concerned here not with history as such but with what Jan Assmann calls mnemohistory, an inquiry into the tracks of imagination, materiality, and events that transmute—by a kind of social alchemy—into authoritative representations of the remembered past.” Well, imagination and social alchemy is what we have been getting in Hendel’s paper.

He then goes back to the assertion that, “A variety of biblical texts describe the indigenous giants,” read as Rephaim, of course, “of Canaan and/or their demise in the conquest.”

Hendel next plays the patchwork-jigsaw puzzle academic’s game by appealing to the Documentary Hypothesis a.k.a. JEDP Theory which he uses (or, misuses) to put his narrative-tall-tale, “in roughly chronological order, beginning with Amos and J (or, if one prefers, a strand of non-P)…and then to P, Deuteronomy, and Joshua.”

Hendel writes, “I will emphasize the distinctive interpretations of the giants in each text; how they figure in the cultural imaginaire of these sources” and I, in turn, will emphasize the distinctive misinterpretations of the Nephilim, Rephaim, and subjectively unusually tall people in each text; how they figure in the scholarly imaginaire of the academic sources that publish such papers apparently, after literally being reviewed by peers: those who utterly agree and do so uncritically.

He tells us, “The most direct account of the conquest of aboriginal giants is Amos 2:9–10, where Yhwh recalls his destruction of the Amorites” to which he appeals because, as we well know by now, it refers to, “height is like the height of cedars” and Hendel, like them all, utterly ignores, “whose strength is like oaks.”

Of course, Hendel concludes that Amorites, “are presented as giants.” As I awaited to see how Hendel would correlate Amorites to Nephilim—assuming that perhaps more than one usage of giants was in play—I noted that he instantly took a step back from his narrative with, “the ethnonyms for the indigenous giants are somewhat varied among the texts; here ‘Amorite’ is the general designation.”

This makes it rather convenient for the tall-tale teller since they can simply water everything down and jump from one unrelated group to another by merely asserting they are correlatable because well, because it sure makes for some excitement.

For Hendel the equation is quite simple: begin with multi-usage uses of giant, for some unknown reason take Amorites being tall as cedars (ignore the oak bit), and reference their (supposed) “fearsome stature”—which he can at least recognize, “is expressed through metaphor, likening their height to cedars, the tallest known tree” and refers to it as a, “poetic text” and “prophetic poem.” But what, pray tell, does the metaphor tell us?

Hendel keeps laying it on thick with reference to, “the giant Amorites” and so this is about, “Yhwh’s destruction of the giants” perhaps as opposed to other since he asks, “were normal sized people conquered too…as in other accounts of the conquest?” which denotes the vague nature of our common parlance since what “normal sized” is, is subjective.

Interestingly, via his theoretical means, Hendel speculates that, “The J (or non-P) portion of the narrative of the spies in Num 13 is arguably from around the same period as Amos. This narrative adds other resonances to Yhwh’s defeat of indigenous giants in the conquest. It is the culmination of the sequence of murmuring and backslidings in the Exodus-Wanderings, with the outcome that the Exodus generation, except for Caleb, will not enter the promised land. The people’s terror and fear of the giants is the focus of this account, motivating their resistance and Yhwh’s punishment.”

Do you discern how one single sentence in an evil report becomes a worldview hermeneutic whereby other—contextually utterly unrelated—texts are pulled into the black-hole which is the narrative?

Since, “The J (or non-P) portion of the narrative of the spies in Num 13 is arguably from around the same period as Amos” then Hendel uses the unreliable spies’ false assertions in order to then (mis)interpret and (mis)apply other texts, such as Amos’.

Now, what of, “the culmination…with the outcome” due to, “The people’s terror and fear of the giants”? Well, for one: “The people” saw nothing rather they, like Hendel, just took the ten spies’ word for it.

Note how Hendel relates the key text, the mother of all (of both) biblical Nephilim texts into which he actually delves in detail.

He notes, “Moses instructs the spies to reconnoiter the land…they came to Hebron, and there were Ahiman, Sheshai, and Talmay, children of Anak…” so that Hendel has it that upon returning from their mission, “they brought them a report” and said, “the people who live in the land are strong, and the cities are fortified and very great, and also we saw there the children of Anak” along with that, “Amalek lives in the land of the Negev, and the Hittites, the Jebusites, and the Amorites live in the hill country, and the Canaanites live by the sea and the Jordan.”

Then, “Caleb quieted the people before Moses and said, ‘Let us immediately go up and possess it, for we are able to prevail over it.’”

Yet, “the people who went up with him said, ‘We are not able to go up against the people, for it is stronger than us … And there we saw the Nephilim (the children of Anak are from the Nephilim) and we seemed in our eyes like grasshoppers, and so we seemed in their eyes” (ellipses are Hendel’s).

Elsewhere in this book I have detailed how the key aspect of the Numbers 13 narrative is outlines and plays out.

Thus, here I will point out that via a footnote after, “the Nephilim),” Hendel noted, “This explicating plus (lacking in LXX)…” which is the point that I have variously made about those who for whatever reasons insist on believing the evil report cannot rely on the LXX.

Yet, it matters not to them just as it matters not to Hendel when it comes to weaving a tall-tale.

He goes as far as aggrandizing even the fruit of the land—a favorite sci-fi fallacy of the pop-researchers (to the point that I devoted a chapter in my Pop-Researchers’ book to it).

He asserts, “the scouts bring back a sample of the land’s fruit – which is gigantic” yet, there is no indication of that and he actually quoted that portion of the narrative and did so thusly, “they cut from there a branch with a single cluster of grapes, and they carried it on a pole between two of them, and also some pomegranates and figs. That place is called the Valley of Eshkol [‘cluster’], because of the cluster that the children of Israel cut from there … And they went … to Kadesh, and they brought them a report … and they showed them the fruit of the land” (ellipses and brackets are Hendel’s).

His comment was all-encompassing, “the land’s fruit,” in general that they brought back, “is gigantic.” Mention is made of grapes, pomegranates, and figs. No such thing is even hinted at regarding pomegranates and figs thus, so much for “the land’s fruit,” generically. What of grapes? Well, there is no indication that the individual grapes were “gigantic” but rather, than the cluster was plenteous and so, was heavy—after all, it was, as Hendel quoted it, a land, “flowing with milk and honey” (which the evil report contradicted).

This is another case of Gigorexia Nervosa—Grapeorexia Nervosa, in this case.

Now, another typical move is to lump all of the spies together. I grant that we do not know who actually spoke the recorded words of the original/as is report nor the evil one but only know what Caleb said in between them.

Yet, we know enough to recognize that when Hendel write thusly, he is not being specific enough, “they report about the state of the land (fruitful), the people (strong), and the cities (fortified). They supplement their report with some editorializing: ‘We are not able to go up against the people, for it is stronger than us,’ and add their visceral terror at the gigantic size of the inhabitants, ‘we seemed in our eyes like grasshoppers, and so we seemed in their eyes.’”

The first “they” reported the original/as is report but the second, “They” contradict and embellish it, “supplement,” as Hendel quaintly has it.

It is not even the case that, “their visceral terror at the gigantic size of the inhabitants” caused them to say, “we seemed in our eyes like grasshoppers, and so we seemed in their eyes.” Rather, their coming face-to-face with that they would have to confront six people groups who even they characterize as strong(er) (in agreement with the original/as is report) but not gigantic living in fortified cities, etc. that led them to invent a tall-tale—one that has been believed and repeated as fact by some for millennia.

Hendel has it that, “This metaphor of grasshoppers for humans transposes the actual relationship between humans and giants to a different scale – in the metaphor, people are like insects while giants are like people. In metaphor and reality, the giants have overwhelming mastery.” The key “different scale” between humans and giants, here Nephilim, is that at the time the humans were actually alive on the ground but Nephilim were not. The giants, the real situation which pertained to Rephaim, was that the Rephaim had mastery over the region—technically: the Anakim, Amalekites, Hittites, Jebusites, Amorites, and Canaanites.

Hendel then makes an anachronistic statement in noting, “Caleb does not dispute the accuracy of the report but argues that ‘we are able to prevail’ due to Yhwh’s superior power. He is correct, but the fear of the crowd prevails.”

Why would he dispute the accuracy of the report since “the report” that came before his “we are able to prevail” statement came after the original/as is report. As to why he did not dispute the evil report after he heard it well, I already noted the issue of this not being a formal debate, that we surely do not have the entire discussion, etc.

And yet, if that is to be taken as an argument from silence then feel free to do away with it: we have way too many reasons to utterly reject the evil report as having been utterly false without what I just noted.

We are well past the point of Hendel no longer interacting with the text but rather, interacting with his fantasy version of it. For example (for another example), “Yhwh asks Moses in the following scene, ‘How long will this people reject me, and how long will they not trust me, despite all the signs that I made in their midst?’ (Num 14:11). The people’s fear of the indigenous giants triggers a decisive break between them and Yhwh.”

Here are three versions of, “The people’s fear of the indigenous giants”:

Version 1: The people’s fear of the indigenous six people groups.

Version 2: The people’s fear of the indigenous subjectively unusually tall peoples who were just taller than 5.0-5.3 ft.

Version 3: The people’s fear of made up as a tall-tale and not really alive and on the ground indigenous fantasy giants.

Hendel tells us, “Moses convinces Yhwh not to destroy them, but they are punished with an unfulfilled journey” due to the additional four decades of wilderness wandering. Yet, “not to destroy them”: who is “them”? Speaking of, “Caleb does not dispute the accuracy of the report,” God reacted to it—with extreme prejudice (a technically contextually inaccurate term but well in keeping with military common parlance) since He most certainly did destroy the ten spies, “the men whom Moses sent to spy out the land, who returned and made all the congregation grumble against him by bringing up a bad report about the land—the men who brought up a bad report of the land—died by plague before the Lord” (Numbers 14:36-38).

Yet, while this was clearly about believing a falsehood premised upon not trusting God and the repercussions therefrom, Hendel misses the point entirely since to him, this is about that, “The giants are the occasion for the decisive act of backsliding and punishment.”

Hendel has so far removed himself from the text—ironically even whilst quoting it—that he even asserts, “The good scout, Caleb, is the only one who will enter the land. Yhwh states: ‘But my servant Caleb, because there is a different spirit in him, and he has fully followed me, I will bring him into the land that he entered there, and his seed will inherit it’ (Num 14:24)” yet, if he just kept reading he would have encountered that the text I just quoted actually goes on directly to state, “Of those men who went to spy out the land, only Joshua the son of Nun and Caleb the son of Jephunneh remained alive.”

But, gain, for Hendel this is about weaving a narrative (using vague English) and so, “This…agrees with Amos that Yhwh will defeat the giants in the land, and the Israelites will inherit it.”

By the way, if, “The,” singular, “good scout” is Caleb (he’s forgetting about Joshua, again) then why, pray tell, use the assertions of the non-good scouts as the fundamental level premise for his entire theory?

He notes, “the P account of the spies in Num 13 plays down the theme of giants in the land” which he does not seem to realize is not because of a textual hypothesis but due to that there were no giants in the land—not in the way he is misreading, misunderstanding, misdefining, and misapplying giants.

He goes on to say, “The,” ten non-good, “spies state that the inhabitants are giants (ʾanšê middôt, lit. ‘men of stature,’ Num 13:32), but they do not identify them as Anakim or Nephilim.” This is because v. 32 of the evil report has it that, “all the people that we saw in it,” Anakim, Hittites, Jebusites, Amorites, and Canaanites, “are of great height.” They then went on to assert that—oh, by the way—they also saw Nephilim who were very, very, very tall.

Yet, that “all the people that we saw in it are of great height” is generic—subjectively of great height, just meaning taller than 5.0-5.3 ft.—and this is one of the five mere assertions of the non-good spies: we have no indication that those six people groups were “of great height” although some were and yet, what does it even matter—in reality?

Hendel notes of the Nephilim’s “supernatural quality” that “the J source traces back to the antediluvian coupling of the Sons of God and the daughters of humans (Gen 6:4).” Yet, the evil report’s Nephilim trace back to a fear-based tall-tale.

He focuses on that, “In P, the land is as threatening as its inhabitants: ‘The land that we crossed into to spy out, it eats its inhabitants, and all the people that we saw in it were giants’ (Num 13:32)” and, hallelujah, Hendel actually identifies a straight up contradiction, “Note the contrast – in P the land ‘eats its inhabitants,’ while in J the land is ‘flowing with milk and honey.’”

Yet, this is a missed opportunity since his takeaway is, “The P version of the spies’ report, it seems, is a minor revision of cultural memory,” rather than that the non-good spies are utterly unreliable.

He directs us to, “Moses’s retrospective in Deut 1:28, he recalls – and revises – the scouts’ report from Num 13:28 (with major modifications indicated by underline)…It is a people greater and taller than us, and great cities fortified up to heaven, and we also saw there the children of the Anakim.”

Technically, we do not know if this was exactly a revision since, again, we clearly do not have a point-by-point—word-by-word—narrative and yet, fine, let us go with it: Moses related part of their evil report, threw in a hyperbolic version of part of the as is report, and ended it—not this—by referring to the real-life problem on the ground, the Anakim, and utterly ignored any tall-tales about Nephilim. Moses was too practical, he had to deal with reality, not imaginary folklore.

Yet, note that this gives us a cultural and literary context-window as the cities were clearly not “up to heaven” (first, second, or third) much like Nephilim were not so very, very, very tall—especially when they no longer existed.

Another missed opportunity is that Hendel wrote, “Notice how Deuteronomy subtly intensifies the J wording. The adjective ʿaz (‘strong’) in Num 13:28 is expanded into a comparative, gādôl wārām mimmennû (‘greater and taller than us’), importing the comparative syntax from Num 13:31 (‘stronger than us’).” He missed pointing out that the as is report has the peoples being strong with the spies agreeing they are stronger but then embellishing that it was not just about strength but about size.

He also tells us that, “This intensified expression recurs in the description of other giant peoples – the Emim and the Zamzummim – in Deut 2:10, 21” but those supposed, plural, “peoples” are one since those are just a.k.a.s for Rephaim.

Incoherently, he adds, “Moses’s retrospective discourse replaces the giant grapes from the Valley of Eshkol with ordinary fruit: ‘And they came to the Valley of Eshkol, and they reconnoitered it, and they took of the fruit of the land in their hands, and they brought it…’” but “replaces” from whereabouts? There is nowhere that “giant grapes” are referenced so this is not a case of replacing, it is just a case of narrating the events and doing so once.

In Deuteronomy 9:1–3, we read, “you are going to cross the Jordan today to go in and dispossess nations greater and mightier than you, with great cities fortified up to heaven, a people great and tall, the children of the Anakim” for which Hendel’s takeaway is, “Moses takes up this description of the indigenous giants again in his exhortation to Israel” but the only “description” was “tall.”

He goes on to write, “Moses’s original discourse in Deuteronomy does not address the giant Anakim outside of these two passages” but he does not even really address the “giant Anakim” at all, just the subjectively tall Anakim.

Note Hendel’s wording as he refers to, “information about the giants of Transjordan in Deut 2:10–11, 20–21, and 3:11, correlating their fate with the Anakim” and then quoting, “The Emim lived there previously, a people great and many, and tall like the Anakim. They were accounted as Rephaim, like the Anakim, but the Moabites called them Emim. (Deut 2:10–11).”

Well, of course they are correlated: they are, in essence, one in the same since Emim are Rephaim and Rephaim are Emim directly while Anakim are Rephaim in terms of a tribe’s clan.

Likewise with when he goes on to quote, “Rephaim lived there before them, but the Ammonites called them Zamzumim, a people great and many, and tall like the Anakim…(Deut 2:20–21).”

Well, of course they are correlated: they are, in essence, one in the same since Zamzumim are Rephaim and Rephaim are Zamzumim directly—etc.

Yet, Hendel goes on to write, of “the Emim and the Zamzummim” as if they are distinct peoples.

Hendel comes close to discerning this when he writes, “The ethnonyms of the giants of Transjordan are arranged according to place: Rephaim in Bashan, Zamzummim in Ammon, and Emim in Moab.”

Yet, it is a case of close but no cigar, as they used to say, since it is more of a case that the ethnonyms of the Rephaim of Transjordan are arranged according to place: Rephaim in Bashan, Zamzummim in Ammon, and Emim in Moab.

So as to example the ongoing problem with multiple usage of the term giants without informing the reader along the way, he then tells us, “Israel’s Transjordanian neighbors conquered their own giants” which giants? He continues that sentence directly with, “the only divine agent named is Yhwh (2:21), yielding a causality that conforms to Deuteronomy’s ‘Yhwh alone’ theology. There is no Milcom (the chief god of Ammon) in this representation of the conquest of the Zamzummim.”

But Milcom is a disembodied entity and thus, not a giant and, again the Zamsummim are the Repahim (Milcom is either a demon in, thin, disguise or just a made-up non-entity).

He then moves from that to that he considers, “The aside about King Og of Bashan…curious” and states outright, “There is no hint in Numbers that Og is a giant, nor in the Deuteronomic account of his defeat in 3:1–10.” Well, there is no hint anywhere that Og was subjectively unusually tall (yet, some assert that the hint is tucked in to his bed). The biblically accurate way to interpret giant here is that there is more than a hint, since we have an outright statement, that Og was a Repha.

Yet, Hendel is fixated on that, “Og’s bed, which is on display for actual viewing…appeals to empirical facts as evidence for the extraordinary size of this conquered giant.”

He even add the odd statement, “His iron bed is roughly 13.5 feet long and 6 feet wide – the size of a giant” but whence did he get such a notion of any normative “size of a giant” in the first place.

He seems to be engaged in circular reasoning: he comes to that conclusion based on merely assuming that the bed’s size is correlatable to Og’s size and then standardizing Og’s size to represent “the size of a giant.”

Hendel notes, “The Israelite conquest of the giants resumes when Joshua destroys the Anakim in the land of Israel in Josh 11” which states, “No Anakim remained in the land of the children of Israel.” So, we can read Hendel a, “conquest of the subjectively unusually “tall”—by unknown margins” or as, “conquest of the Anakim.”

Since he is not chasing down the Anakim, he refers to, “David and his men slaying four Philistine giants, including a certain Goliath” wherein, of course, “giants” are “Rephaim.”

Goliath was a Gathite, Philistine, Anakite, Rephite: Gathite as a resident of the city of Gath, Philistine due to living in the region of Philistia, Anakite due to his clan, and Rephite due to this tribe.

He notes, “The floating terms for the giants among these texts, from Amos to Joshua, seems to indicate differing ethnographies.” Yet, none of the term are floating as loftily and wildly high as giants, which is constantly being tossed to and fro by every wind of hot air tall-tale telling.

Since he has been formulating a narrative, and is then circuitously applying it to his narrative, he writes, “The common denominator is that the giants…were destroyed…the giants are dead. This seems to be a resonance of the terms nəpīlîm, Nephilim, lit. ‘fallen ones,’ and rəpāʾîm, Rephaim, elsewhere denoting the spirits of the dead, and probably also ʾēmîm (Emim, lit. ‘terrors’) and zamzummîm, Zamzummim, lit. ‘whisperers’). They once were giants, but now they sleep in the dust…The mighty giants are now only a memory.”

But by that (il)logic, absolutely any people group that “were destroyed…are dead…sleep in the dust…are now only a memory” can be correlated to Nephilim. And well, sure they can but only within the context that all are now “destroyed…dead…in the dust…memory” and nothing more.

Hendel then loops all the way back to, the beginning, “Is there a back-story for these giants? Genesis 6:1–4 offers one answer – they are descended from the sexual mingling of divine males and human females, who gave birth to the Nephilim, the ‘heroes of old,’ who then (somehow) survived the flood to become the indigenous giants of Canaan and Transjordan.”

This is well trodden ground, and we found no giant footprints impressed upon that ground—even if such tall-tales are impressive.

So, here we go again, “these giants” to which he has been referring were Rephaim, by any other name (sans the name Nephilim, of course) thus, there is no indication that “these giants” have anything at all to do with Genesis 6 and so not that they descended from such mingling—recall: not even if we actually accept the evil report in other than LXX form.

Also, Hendel has Nephilim (somehow) surviving the flood—meaning God failed—and then with a simple (unbiblical) switcheroo of names, were no longer called Nephilim, for another unknown reason, but were called various other terms. Well, there is literally no indication of any such a thing—nor, of course, that they did not survive but returned, in some unknown but sci-fi spiked exciting manner.

Hendel then follows his loop back to that, as per William Robertson Smith, “The giant-legends no doubt arose in part from the contemplation of ancient ruins of great works and supposed gigantic tombs.”[3]

Hendel writes, “I would emphasize that such an act of collective “contemplation” takes us into the realm of mnemohistory, where imagination, physical realia, traditional lore, and social norms are linked in a creative dialectic.” And I, in turn, my dear readers, would emphasize that such an act of collective tall-taleing takes us into the realm of mnemo-neo-theo-sci-fi, where imagination, physical realia, traditional lore, and social norms are linked in a creative—yet, unbiblical (and un-historical and un-logical) dialectic.

The tale continues hereafter my a cacophonous concoction of all things mysterious, wild, and tall, “giants are creatures of otherness” and “awesome superhuman other,” whose vast size and strength instill fear and anxiety. Gods in the ancient Levant tend to be, in Mark Smith’s term, ‘supersized,’” because, after all, who want an unremarkable God who manifests, incarnates, in such a way that He exhibits, “no form or majesty that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him” (Isaiah 53:2)?

Continuing, Hendel makes an interesting point, “Foreign peoples can also be giants, objectifying the otherness and angst that foreigners evoke.” Note that this denotes a case of xenophobically referring to foreigners as giants not due to identifying a particular characteristic of their physiques but in order to objectify their otherness. Thus, we have admission here that, as I have variously noted, arguing thusly, “The word giants is used ergo, they were subjectively unusually tall” is just a simple case of a word-concept fallacy.

Hendel also, refreshingly, refers to, “this usage” such as like I have variously emphasized the difference between meaning(s) or definition(s) vs. usage(s).

What he stated is, “In this usage, gigantic size can be a sign of the subhuman or uncultured other, peoples outside the norms of civilization.” Just to be extra-clear, I will re-write that thusly, “In this usage, that of supposed and/or metaphorical and/or caricatured gigantic size…”

Hendel appeals to “the ‘Satirical Letter’ from the Egyptian New Kingdom [1570-1544 BC], the fierce Shasu tribesmen of Palestine are larger than life: ‘The narrow path is infested by Shasu who hide in the scrub; some of them are four or five cubits tall from head to toe…”

He emphasizes Satirical due to his context of xenophobia making giants out of nothing to do with height. Thus, he refers to, “The giant foreigners – some up to 7.5 feet tall – are fierce, humorless, and barely civilized. They exemplify chaos…”

He then applies that thusly, “The giants in biblical memory are also foreigners…, with the qualification that they reside solely in the past,” according to his hypothesis regarding textual issues, “Since Israel was aware that it was a latecomer in the ancient Near East, the giants serve as a place-holder for this past era…the death of the giants is the narrative event that enables Israel’s inheritance of the land.”

This line of argumentation can only be applied to the evil report since it is only there were we see foreigners being described being of “great stature” and large enough to make the unreliable spies seem like grasshoppers.

Thus, this has been very much ado about not very much: a huge circumlocution to elucidate one single verse.

Hendel sets out on another circuitous rote by continuing with that, “The memory of the giants is often, as Robertson Smith observed, stimulated by great ruins in the land. As Simon Schama writes in Landscape and Memory, the landscape is always a work of interpretation, ‘built up as much from strata of memory as from layers of rock.’”[4]

Hendel emphasizes that, “the rocks themselves are arguably…conjuring stories of ancient giants” but made-up stories or real stories? Well, he called it, “signifiers of memory” but actual memory or time plus tall-tale spiked memory such as that which evidencelessly turned Nephilim and Og into giants even in the face of no reliable physical description of either?

As he did before, he lists off such memory markers, “fields of dolmens and other megalithic structures in Transjordan…fortifications in Palestine” and adds the important qualifier, “the great Middle Bronze fortifications were built for defense and prestige.” So now, if fortifications were for prestige, then we cannot rightly take a measuring rod to them and assert that we can learn anything about the height of those who built them thereby.

Yet, he seems to want to set aside such considerations, even whilst stumbling into them in the manner of a moment of clarity, as he tells us, “The original function of these structures, however, does not concern us here; rather, we are concerned with their role in the mnemohistory of the giants.” Fair enough, I suppose, let us forgo mundane elucidations of a phenomena and chase after giants but then, why forgo mundane elucidations of a phenomena and chase after giants but for the sake of neo-theo-sci-fi-tall-tales and/or to elucidate how such ancient-theo-sci-fi-tall-tales originated?

Continuing along the long lines of such “massive architectural works,” he notes, “Hebron, where Moses sent the spies,” which featured, “cyclopean walls” (referring to walls “of the polygonal type known as cyclopean”). These consisted of boulders, “often six feet or more in length…walls constructed from them could be thirty or more feet in height.”

Hendel notes, “To the Israelites living here, the massive walls of Hebron must have seemed … cyclopean. Surely, they were built by giants – Anakim, Nephilim, or Amorites, in their shifting ethnonyms. The idea that giants built the walls of Hebron is indicated by the spies’ report. The city, the inhabitants, and even the fruit was gigantic. As Moses recounts their report: ‘It is a people greater and taller than us, and great cities fortified up to heaven’ (Deut 1:28)” (ellipses in original).

Now, I want to be chronologically careful about this: sure, they must have seemed cyclopean yet, (here is where the chronology come into play):

The Israelites living there had Caleb and Joshua who had known Egypt.

The Israelites living there had Moses’ records of Egypt.

The Israelites living there would have had plenty of cultural memories of Egypt as they were told and retold by the generation that did not make it into the land.

Thus, they must have seemed cyclopean yet, the logical reaction would (or should) have been, “Big deal! There was much, much, much bigger pyramids and such structures in Egypt but no one ever saw any giants around.”

They also would have known about the evil report and the utterly unreliable nature of the evil reporters who promulgated a tall-tale.

They would have also been aware of common parlance such as Moses’, “great cities fortified up to heaven” line (whether it was his own hyperbolic accent to the tale of a previously unrecorded portion of the as is or evil reports).

Oddly, Hendel notes, “This ancient concept is still reflected in the archaeological terminology that describes these structures as cyclopean” which may be fair enough but, then again, we might as well assert that such structures have something to do with having one single eye. In short, what Western academics decided to term such structures based on their knowledge of Greek mythology only tell us what Western academics decided to term such structures based on their knowledge of Greek mythology.

More specifically, “This term stems from ancient Greek memories…According to Pausanias, Description of Greece, 2.16.5 (trans. Jones): ‘the city wall [of Mycenae], including the gate…are said to be the work of the Cyclopes, who made for Proetus the wall at Tiryns.’ The Cyclopes who built these walls were giants, offspring of Gaia and Ouranos, who had enormous strength but a single eye. They are giant Others, superhuman in strength.’”

Interestingly, as noted elsewhere in this book, the LXX has Nephilim as gigantes which means earth-born as in born of Gaia and Ouranos. Speaking of cultural memories, it is interesting that the Genesis 6 affair was between sons of God (fallen) from heaven and women of Earth. Greek mythology puts this as Ouranos mating with Gaia: Ouranos, representing the sky, mating with Gaia, representing the Earth.

Yet, before jumping much too excitedly from Nephilim were called gigantes ergo, they were GIANT TITANS!!! Let us break this down a few different ways:

There was not just one generation of the mating of Ouranos and Gaia and the generations varied quite a bit.

There is no reason to think that just because anonymous translators and renderers of the Hebrew into Greek had any sort of special insight—much less that they were attempting to impart such an insight via the rendering of one word.

Also, recall that, for some unknown yet flummoxing reason(s), the LXX renderers (and rendering is what they were doing in this case, most certainly something nowhere even close to translating) had Nephilim as gigantes but also Rephaim as gigantes.

But, just when some are ready to declare Rephaim were called gigantes ergo, they were GIANT TITANS!!!

They also rendered gibborim as gigantes but just when some are ready to yell gibborim were called gigantes ergo, they were GIANT TITANS!!! We must note that gibborim, in and of itself, cannot (certainly not necessarily) refer to height of any sort since it is just a descriptive term referring to might/mighty.

Pop-researchers do tend to speak of the Gibborim as if it refers to a people group but such is simply not the case—not a people group. Certainly, many people groups can be described as being gibborim/mighty but that tells us about a characteristic that has nothing to do with height.

In fact, those who insist on insisting that gibborim were called gigantes ergo, they were GIANT TITANS!!! Will have to, by their own (il)logic, have to conclude that Angels are giants, Nimrod was a giant, some of David’s soldiers were giants, Boaz was a giant, etc., oh, and God is a giant since they, et al., are all referred to as gibbor/im (Genesis 10:8; Psalm 103:20; Ruth 2:1; 1 Chronicles 11:11; and Isaiah 9:6).

To Hendel, this is about that, “our terminology retains the ancient memory that these massive stone walls were built by giants…the Israelites would have readily assented. The connection between the cyclopean walls of Hebron and the biblical representation of Hebron as a city of giants seems self-evident.

The built landscape of Hebron is the imagined backdrop of the spies’ report, and the cyclopean walls are visual testimony to the ancient giants in the land.”

Yet, if “the Israelites would have readily assented,” even in the face of the knowledge of the evil report and its repercussions, and, “a city of giants” having been, “self-evident” of, “giants in the land” they did not, actually, view nor term Hebron a city of giants, that is just Hendel’s eisegetically inserting his narrative and (mis)speaking for them. It was a city of Rephaim or Anakim or various other terms, none of which even imply anything about height whatsoever.

Hendel writes of, “the Rephaim, whom the Ammonites call Zamzummim and the Moabites call Emim” in relation to, “stone structures: dolmens, standing stones (maṣṣēbôt), stone circles, and stone alignments…megalithic landscapes…ceremonial landscape…stone structures” and a particular dolmen that features, “a capstone nine feet long and eight feet wide” along with that, “Their capstones range in size from roughly three to eleven feet in length and two to ten feet in width, with most in the middle range (ca. six feet by three feet) and some larger outliers.”

That was meant to, for some reason, reiterate (again and again) that, “the megaliths of Transjordan were viewed by Iron Age peoples as the work of the giant Rephaim”—Rephaim Rephaim—“in European folklore in what we may call an ethnographic parallel, dolmens are widely attributed to giants” (both as per Paul Karge).[5]

Interestingly, he now tells us, “These dolmens are often identified as giants’ beds, tables, or tombs…In Sardinia, similar megalithic structures are called the Tombe dei Giganti.” Thus, there is no reason to think that they were giants’ beds, tables, or tombs but were misinterpreted or folklorized as giants’ beds, tables, or tombs.

He provides us with this example (“Dolmen west of Heshbon (PEF-P-4080, photo by Alfred M. Mantell, courtesy of the

Palestine Exploration Fund)”), “with a six-foot tall ʾAdwān sheikh alongside for perspective”:

nephilim-giant-dolmen

Where is the pillow?

One need not appeal to cultural memories but simply to how many times one can say, “Look, it’s a pile of rocks” that marks thus and such, until one begins to say, “A giant is buried beneath it!!!!” (that adds a layer of mystique, does it not?) or “A giant sleeps on it!!! (so, kids, don’t go out there at night), etc. This may come as a shock but before television and the interweb machines, people actually talked and told and retold and re-retold tales—accreting as they went.

Hendel tells us, “In the Bible, dolmens are not mentioned” but perhaps that is precisely what it is doing with regards to Og’s bed—employed ritualistically or merely decoratively. In fact, he notes, that Karge, “proposed that the famous bed of Og of Bashan, the last of the Rephaim, was probably a dolmen in Rabbat-Ammon.”

Looping around to subjects again (and again) as he does, Hendel writes, “I think that this background for Og’s bed is attractive, the adjective ‘iron’ (barzel) for a dolmen is a problem – one would expect ‘stone’ (ʾeben) or ‘flint’ (ṣōr)” yet, of course, we have already covered this ground—we get it, the bed was ironic.

He then gets around to that, “Hübner and Lindquist argue that Og’s bed is modeled after Marduk’s large bed, which was encrusted with gold and jewels and located in the holy chamber of Etemenanki, the ziggurat of Babylon.”[6]

We are then taken back to, “large dolmens…in the imagined landscape of ancient giants…legendary topography…Megalaiths…cyclopean…to premodern eyes, signified the past existence of giants – Anakim, Nephilim, Rephaim, and others.”

I will re-reiterate, “the past existence of giants”: Anakim who were subjectively “tall,” Nephilim for whom we have no reliable physical description, Rephaim who were subjectively “tall” (and well, whoever the others were) so, what happened to, “the past existence of giants”?

Hendel continues arguing, “The giants were no longer seen, since they were long dead, but the ruins of their mighty works were striking features of the landscape” which he writes as if after seeing the size of King Solomon’s Temple, a generation after it was built Israelites would have assumed that it was built by giants.

He even insists, “These memory-stones point to mighty figures and forces of the past that shaped the worldview of ancient Israel” but then why, pray tell, is there hardly a single word in the whole Bible about any such giants—even if we stretch them as we might in order to get them to be or seem gigantic?

If I had to argue his point, I would do so thusly (but would have to admit that admit that I was basing this upon one single verse about one single instance): witnessing that, “the cities are fortified and very large” resulted in the identification of the city builders and dwellers as, “Nephilim (the sons of Anak, who come from the Nephilim), and we seemed to ourselves like grasshoppers, and so we seemed to them.”

Yet, this would not only myopic but a watered-down statement that leaves out key features of the narrative—the stuff of which neo-theo-sci-fi-tall-tales are made: ignore key features, emphasize juicy aspects, and throw in vague and undefined terms such as giants.

As Hendel puts it, “Compared to them, and to their cyclopean monuments, the Iron Age inhabitants must have seemed in their own eyes like grasshoppers.”

Hendel’s conclusion focuses on how he, “focused on the biblical representations of giants,” even while we still await even one single actual reference to any such personage.

And he makes my ongoing point for me, again, by following that statement with, “The idea that ancient giants inhabited Canaan and Transjordan was inferable from the cyclopean walls of Hebron and other sites, including Gath, home of the last giants” even when that is to be, biblically, read as, “ancient Rephaim inhabited Canaan and Transjordan…Gath, home of the last Rephaim” with the only indication of anything to do with height being, “tall” compared to 5.0-5.3 ft. Yet, Hendel re-re-reiterates, “the giants – Anakim, Nephilim, Rephaim, etc.”

He notes, “Josephus mentions huge bones on display in Hebron as further testimony to the local giants.” Yet, there is no indication he saw any such bones, he only notes that they are on display. And even if he saw them, he was not an anatomist so would not know if he was looking at the huge (another vague, generic, subjective, multi-usage, and undefined term) bones of whales, dinosaurs, pachyderm, etc. (see one of the appendices of my book What Does the Bible Say About Giants and Nephilim? A Styled Giantology and Nephilology).

Speaking of huge, he tells us that, “the indigenous Canaanites were…huge” yet, “compared to the Israelites” bingo!

He adds, “monstrous barbarism…the giants are foreign and primordial ‘others’…frightening creatures” and that, “In historical terms, these claims are mostly fictive” and yet, that which is mostly fictive, by orders of magnitude, is his (mis)handling of this entire topic.

He goes on to references, “the role of the giants in the conquest and in the formation of Israel’s collective identity” but then why, pray tell, in all of the biblical records of battles and even hand-to-hand combat do we only get a mere two specified heights: just shy of 7 ft. and 7.5 ft.?

Sadly, as he nears the end of his paper he merely emphasizes his generic and aggrandized misunderstandings of this topic with phrases that are all-encompassing as, “the very nature of the giants…they are fallen ones, spirits of the dead, whispering and terrible….dead spirits.”

Thus, overall, as noted, this has been an example of how poor Nephilology from academe is what trickles down to pop-research who glean from it and then make it even worse by peppering it with neo-theo-sci-fi atop ancient-the-sci-fi.

__________________________________

This review was of Ronald Hendel, “The Landscape of Memory: Giants and the Conquest of Canaan” in, Collective Identity and Collective Memory: Deuteronomy and the Deuteronomistic History in Their Context (eds., Johannes U. Ro and Diana Edelman, BZAW 534 (Berlin: de Gruyter, 2021), 263-88).

You can find my various Nephilology and giantology books here.

Hendel’s notes:

[1] “Saxo Grammaticus. 2015. Gesta Danorum: The History of the Danes. Edited by Karsten Friis-Jenson. Translated by Peter Fisher. Oxford: Clarendon, p. 19”

[2] “Wright, G. Ernest. 1938. “Troglodytes and Giants in Palestine.” JBL 57:305–9”

[3] “…from an unpublished letter written by William Roberston-Smith to Samuel R. Driver and cited in Dozeman, Thomas B. 2015. Joshua 1–12. AB 6B. New Haven: Yale University Press. Driver, Samuel R. 1895. Deuteronomy. ICC. Edinburgh: Clark, p. 40.”

[4] “Schama, Simon. 1995. Landscape and Memory. New York: Random House.”

[5] “Karge, Paul. 1917. Rephaim: Die vorgeschichtliche Kultur Palästinas und Phöniziens. Archäologische und religionsgeschichtliche Studien. Paderborn: Schöningh.”

[6] “Hübner, Ulrich. 1993. “Og von Baschan und sein Bett in Rabbat Ammon (Deuteronomium 3,11).” ZAW 105:86–92.”

Wherein I agree with an Atheist that “Fictional entities never existed”

The question If the Nephilim descended from the line of Cain, would he have known the fallen angels who tainted his lineage? was posted to the Quora site but rather than discussing it, an Atheist troll inserted himself into it.

I, Ken Ammi, replied

Nephilim were born from generic “daughters of men,” not specifically female Cainites so there’s no real reason to speculate further.

Jason Shearin

Fictional entities never existed.

Ken Ammi

I couldn’t agree more.

Jason Shearin

Then why do you claim they existed?

Ken Ammi

When, where, and how did I ever claim that fictional entities exist/ed? Keep in mind that on your worldview there’s nothing wrong with claiming that fictional entities never exist/ed—please try hard to not ignore that.

Jason Shearin

In every post you make

Ken Ammi

It appears that you are disallowing replies to your comments since there’s no such option anymore. In any case, that’s clearly a mere assertion and not the case.

That brought the discussion to and end as no more replies were forthcoming.

See my various books here.

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Due to robo-spaming, I had to close the comment sections. However, you can comment on my Twitter page, on my Facebook page, or any of my other social network sites all which are available here.

VIDEO: TJ Steadman & Ken Ammi debate Nephilim Giants

As a companion to the vid, see my book The Great Nephilim Giants Debates which features Gary Wayne, T.J. Steadman, Rob Rowe, and Eric Rolon–find it on Amazon—here—or other book sellers.

See my various books here.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A plea: I have to pay for server usage and have made all content on this website free and always will. I support my family on one income and do research, writing, videos, etc. as a hobby. If you can even spare $1.00 as a donation, please do so: it may not seem like much but if each person reading this would do so, even every now and then, it would add up and really, really help out. Here is my donate/paypal page.

Due to robo-spaming, I had to close the comment sections. However, you can comment on my Twitter page, on my Facebook page, or any of my other social network sites all which are available here.

On “Nephilim made in Genesis 6 was that they were before and after the flood”

The following discussion ensued from the video Who Are The Nephilim? | with Joshua Lewis & Michael Rowntree by Right Response Ministries which consistently only gives wrong responses to Nephilology and related issues.

I, Ken Ammi, noted

Yes, “the word ‘Nephilim’ only appears one other time in scripture that’s Numbers 13 verse 33” but the Nephilim don’t: that’s just a reference to them.

See, you read, “the Israelite spies reported that they had seen the Nephilim” but you need to be more detailed since there were 12 spies but it was the 10 unfaithful, disloyal, contradictory, embellishes who made five assertions about which the whole entire rest of the Bible knows nothing and whom God rebuked who claimed that, they just concocted a tall tale.

That there were post-flood Nephilim, that Anakim were related to them, and that Nephilim were very tall are all exclusively stated within the 10 spies’ “evil report” so are utterly unreliable assertions not back by even one other single verse.

Thus, did didn’t survive the flood and there’s not one single statement about them returning, not even a hint of Angles falling again (there’s only a one time fall of Angels in the Bible).

And the only reason to think that they survived (in any way, shape, or form) or returned is, guess what?, one single verse within an “evil report” by utterly unreliable guys whom God rebuked—to death.

Craig Chambers replied

The point of the Nephilim made in Genesis 6 was that they were before and after the flood. It does not necessarily take angels falling again in that manner (they are spiritually fallen in any case) to produce Nephilim, as they, being born of women, had reproductive capabilities in their own bodies, in which case there would have been some Nephilim ancestry mixed in with Noah. But if one must regard that as not possible for some reason, then it refers to a continuance of angels taking physical form for immoral and unnatural intent after the flood. I am not aware of a one-time fall verse in regards to physical manifestations of angels, only their one-time fall from spiritual life. In fact, angels were obviously able to take on physical manifestation and eat food. So, fallen angels, Genesis 6, could continue the practice before and after the flood until they were imprisoned. We are not told when they were imprisoned as far as I can tell.

Ken Ammi

Most interesting, friend.

But your proposal is premised on the mere assertion that, “there would have been some Nephilim ancestry mixed in with Noah.”

But besides that you had to invent that story (and imply that God failed): if there was some then why are there no such things as post-flood Nephilim—which is one reason, “one must regard that as not possible”—?

Inventing “a continuance of angels taking physical form for immoral and unnatural intent after the flood” 1) also implies that God failed, 2) is fallacious since there’s no indication anywhere that Angles take physical form, 3) as per Jude and 2 Peter 2 they were incarcerated so they would not have been around to do any such thing. True, “We are not told when they were imprisoned” but since the flood was when God was cleaning house, in a manner of speaking, then just letting it all happen again post-flood implies that the flood was a waste.

As I noted, it is true that there is no, “one-time fall verse in regards to physical manifestations of angels” since there are zero such verses.

See, when you say, “angels were obviously able to take on physical manifestation and eat food” you’re getting ahead of yourself: your hidden assumption of a premise is faulty, you imply they are not ontologically physical but they are physical (even if with access to realms/dimensions) we can’t access.

Beyond all of this, you find yourself being forced to literally make up stuff just to protect one single verse that merely records an evil report by utterly unreliable guys whom God rebuked: why do you side with them? They made five assertions about which the whole entire rest of the Bible knows nothing at all: why exclusively believe them? They contradict Moses, Caleb, Joshua, God, and the rest of the Bible: as for me and my house, we will side with contradict Moses, Caleb, Joshua, God, and the rest of the Bible.

Craig Chambers

Just some quick replies, but no more since this appears to be accusatory rather than instructive. I reread my post and do not see where I ‘invented’ some story. I have conjectured based on the verse itself, “before and after the flood.” So, either from the loins of Noah or angels doing the same thing again until imprisonment, unless there is a third option that I don’t see. Angels took physical form and ate food (Abraham before the destruction of Sodom; men desiring relations (sex) with angels in Sodom, entertaining angels unawares). Taking such form does not mean they are not spirit, but that they abandoned their natural spirit abode for a time. If this happened once and it did not imply that God failed (which He cannot do), why would doing it after the flood suggest failure? God is God, and nothing any living thing like angels do is without His will involved (however you look at that; permissive, direct).

The spies, all ten, gave the report. There was no dispute as to the fact that the people were generally larger, and besides, there were also Nephilim. What was ‘evil’ was the stress laid by the eight that these people were too strong for the Jews to fight and they would lose. Caleb and Hoshea (Joshua) were contrary, saying that the Lord would prevail and that the Jews should go into the land and fight as God was commanding. To read into this that the facts were evil rather than the conclusion (which the whole assembly took to heart and wept and rebelled) is to implicate Caleb and Joshua as well, but clearly they presented the facts too and yet concluded that God was going to give them the victory.

Ken Ammi

Friend, please don’t read my black and white text emotively: I’m interested in sharpening iron with iron—I just find that when we seek to sharpen iron with iron, someone tends to get cut.

Since there’s nothing in the whole Bible about post-flood Nephilim then, by definition, seeking to elucidate a reappearance of them post-flood is inventing some story.

Now, you refer to, “the verse itself, ‘before and after the flood’” but there’s no such verse in the whole Bible and by inserting “the flood” into it you miss that it is telling you to what days it’s referring and it’s not the flood: those days were when the SoG first mated with the DoM and afterwards is just that, after they first did it. They began to do it and kept doing it but that’s all pre-flood.

So anything about “from the loins of Noah or angels doing the same thing again” is unnecessary since we’ve no reliable indication of any post-flood Nephilim at any time at all.

You say, “Angels took physical form” but there’s no such thing in the Bible. Rather, every time they are described they are described as looking just like human males so that means that such is how they look naturally, that is their ontology, and we were created “a little lower” then they: they are not spirit, they are embodied in a flesh of their own which enjoyed access to dimensional realms that we can’t access.

Doing it after the flood suggests failure since it would imply that God sent a worldwide flood in order to be rid of fallen Angel and Nephilim related byproducts only to have them do it all again so the flood was a waste.

You say “The spies, all ten, gave the report” but there were twelve spies and Joshua sided with Caleb so that leaves the ten unfaithful, disloyal, contradictory, embellishers whom God rebuked: why side with them and against Moses, Joshua, Caleb, God, and the rest of the whole Bible?

You say, “There was no dispute as to the fact that the people were generally larger, and besides, there were also Nephilim” but when Moses relates the event in Deut 1 he doesn’t even bother mentioning Nephilim: he’s too concerned about the real dangers on the ground, not made up tall tales. Also, “generally larger” means generally larger than 5.0-5.3 ft. so what of it?

What was “evil” was the motivation and to what it led. The report is not false because it’s called “evil” but due to its demonstrably false contents: five assertions about which the whole entire rest of the Bible knows nothing at all. That’s why neo-Nephilology is literally based on one single verse.

That brought the discussion to and end as no more replies were forthcoming.

See my various books here.

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A plea: I have to pay for server usage and have made all content on this website free and always will. I support my family on one income and do research, writing, videos, etc. as a hobby. If you can even spare $1.00 as a donation, please do so: it may not seem like much but if each person reading this would do so, even every now and then, it would add up and really, really help out. Here is my donate/paypal page.

Due to robo-spaming, I had to close the comment sections. However, you can comment on my Twitter page, on my Facebook page, or any of my other social network sites all which are available here.

Atheist TJump’s video “Ken Ammi, Evidence for God?” disappears

Such was what the Atheist TJump aka Tom Jump wrongly titled the video on his channel when he had me on for a discussion. Well, the video Ken Ammi, Evidence for God? has gone mysteriously missing from his channel and the hyperlink leads to, “This video isn’t available anymore.”

I suppose it was good foresight that I posted it on my channel shortly after it aired, as Atheist TJump & Messianic Jew Ken Ammi AGREE!!!

When it was on Mr. T’s channel, a certain Brian Manzolli commented

The amount of words Ken uses to say absolutely nothing is awe-striking. This sounds more like a conversation about planning a meeting to have a conversation about evidence for God rather than just a conversation.

He’s like a kid who can’t swim that hosts a pool party. And all of his friends show up and hop in and he’s standing there, poolside, talking about all of the different dives he has to choose from to get in the water. And fast forward five hours later to see him still standing there talking while the last of his guests have long since left. We know you can’t swim, Ken. It’s really not that big of a deal. Some accidental apes will be jerks to you about it and that sucks. But you DID willingly enter the ape cage, to be fair.

Péter Balogh noted

So it will be just like that till the end? Oh my…

I, Ken Ammi, replied

If you watched the video you would know that I have no idea why the video is titled as such since we never agreed to discuss that.

Now, it’s not surprising that you left a jerk comment since if you’re a Jumperian Atheist then you realized that you are literally incapable of condemning me or claiming that I did anything objectively wrong–or even that I am objectively wrong. Thus, you are stuck with a failed worldview according to which all you have are subjective personal preferences so that you have discredited yourself from any actual critique which beings us full circle to why you decided to merely emote.

Dark replied

Objective morals and objective meaning is nonsense theist garbage. Morals for a theist is just subjective commands from God on how to behave and at the drop of a hat a God could command u to commit acts that civilised people find immoral, like i dont know, like whats in the majority of holy books including the jewish bible and meaning is always subjective since meaning in things is found by beings. This entire video u just evaded talking about your own beliefs and reasons for them but u asserted that an athiest worldview has to be nihilistic because if no God nothing matters including truth. Which is an obviously terrible argument, if u were really that dense that u couldn’t see any reason that an athiest would want to survive and know the truth then just fucking ask them, like for example  ask Tjump why an athiest would value truth or morals, instead of wasting everyones time by asserting that athiest have to be nihilist, but ill give u credit,  at times u were a great clown for the live chat

Rafał Łabuda note

Will I send you some cream for that hurting butt? It’s free…

The Time Capsule of Patrick and Asia Harris commented

@Rafał Łabuda  dude is cutting and pasting this same comment for everyone. Holy crap this guy is trash

Scott Withington

ken, he was being a jerk but then you try and respond with a concept that is way beyond your capabilities at this point. In listening to the debate, The frustration for us listeners mostLy  lies in that you didn’t bring anything to the table

Ken Ammi

@Dark  Let’s examine the bed you just made to see if you’ll sleep in it: “Objective morals and objective meaning is nonsense theist garbage” so it’s all subjective personal preference, right? And if it’s all subjective personal preference then you just disqualified yourself from ever condemning anything, al you can say is that you have personally, subjectively, emotively, decided to not like something.

Ken Ammi

@The Time Capsule of Patrick and Asia Harris  Have you ever tested the waters to see which of dozens and dozens of people are interested in actually engaging in a discussion? I just did and we’ll see who was just making a drive by. BTW: you appear to be incapable of counter-arguing and so are just being childish.

Ken Ammi

@Scott Withington  You’re kidding, right? I argued, up front, that 1. On Atheism, reality (truth, facts) is accidental, 2. as is our ability to discern it, 3. there’s no universal imperative to adhere to it, 4. nor to demand/expect others adhere to it. Tom ended up agreeing with me on each point and admitted that for him it all comes down to subjective personal preferences du jour.

Dark

@Ken Ammi  incorrect, the most important of my personal preferences align with the majority of every human being on the planet, for example, not wanting suffering and  injustice.  news flash we have laws against assault and injustice because it harms peoples lives. While u just have an ancient primitive book that has a god commanding and commiting notrositys.

Cygnus Ustus

I don’t know how you could make up any title for the video,  post-facto, and not still end up looking like a fool.

Schiwi M

That guy is totally frustrating, the first hour was already useless

Ken Ammi

@Dark  And yet, on Atheism the most important of my personal preferences is still just a subjective personal preference and proposing an argumentum ad populum (not that it matters on Atheism) is no remedy.

You are jumping to conclusions, “we have laws against assault and injustice because it harms peoples lives” but you don’t bother saying how or why harming peoples’ lives is problematic, on Atheism.

You are jumping to conclusions in committing a genetic logical fallacy (not that it matters on Atheism) by stating, “have an ancient primitive book” but you don’t bother saying how or why having an ancient primitive book is problematic, on Atheism.

You are jumping to conclusions by merely asserting, “god commanding and commiting notrositys” but you don’t bother saying how or why that’s problematic, on Atheism—speaking of “notrositys”: do you believe that morality evolved?

Ken Ammi

@Cygnus Ustus  I know but, such is what Tom did.

Ken Ammi

@Schiwi M  Yet, what you find subjectively frustrating is not a standard. My primary points were: 1. on Atheism, reality (truth, facts) is accidental, 2. as is our ability to discern it, 3. there’s no universal imperative to adhere to it, 4. nor to demand/expect that others adhere to it. Tom ended up agreeing with me on each point and admitted that. That’s why he took the fallback position that it all comes down to subjective personal preferences based fun du jour.

Ceasetoknow

@Ken Ammi  1. either being accidental has nothing to do with the impossibility of discerning truth. 2. the imperative exists for those who care about that truth and being intellectually honest, something you’ll likely never be.

Schiwi M

you’re frustrating because you’re talking a lot without saying anything, you’re running in circles because you can’t agree on the most basic things.

This conversation was basically like

Tom: “The sky looks blue”

You: “What do you mean by blue?”

Tom: “The color blue”

You: “but that’s totally subjective and just made up by us humans”

[****] like that is annoying

Cygnus Ustus

…and you still ended up looking like a fool.

Dark

ok first of all, never in my reply did i say something is good or right because the majority says so, i said that  “the most important of my personal preferences align with the majority of every human being on the planet, for example, not wanting suffering and  injustice.” no where in that did i use an adpoplum fallacy, i was pointing out a fact and then i said  “news flash we have laws against assault and injustice because it harms peoples lives.” no where in that did i use an adpoplum which shows you dont understand the fallacy. 2nd of all you confuse me when you said “but you don’t bother saying how or why harming peoples’ lives is problematic, on Atheism.” this is a very confused statement, Athiesm has nothing to do with morality or what some ones preferences are, its just the nonbelief in deities, beings are the ones that moral endeavors matter to, and for most beings like humans, pain and unfairness is something the majority of us hate and actively make decisions to avoid them, which is why we have laws that punish those that cause these things. so stop saying things are problematic for atheism as if athiesm is a being, unless you had good evidence for a God which would be problematic for the athiest position. and for your last question, i would say morality did evolve because through out time humans  have been reasoning for how they should treat each other and i would say its gotten progressively better from the past up till now so far.

Ken Ammi

@Schiwi M  Please mind your manners.

I see that you decided to utterly run away from THE main issues.

Friend, “it’s not a problem on atheism” is a mere assertion.

Now, you merely assert I’m being intellectually dishonest but don’t bother saying what’d be wrong with that on your world-view.

Also, what subjectively annoys you is not a standard.

So, how about you focus on the main issue, the 4 points with which Tom agreed, the 4 which instantly reduced him to claiming that for him it’s all about having subjective fun based on personal preferences du jour.

Ken Ammi

@Cygnus Ustus  Are you only able to make assertions or can you elucidate?

For example, what, on your world-view, does it matter if an accidentally existing ape ended up looking like a fool?

Also, you seem to have missed that I made 4 points at the outset, Tom agreed, and it instantly reduced him to claiming that for him it’s all about having subjective fun based on personal preferences du jour.

Ken Ammi

@Dark  Friend, this is one of the very, very few (maybe the only) discussions in this comments section that is on point and interesting and for that, I thank you.

On Atheism logical fallacies are not a problem so you don’t have to waste my time attempting to run away from the fact that you committed one. You most certainly committed an argumentum ad populum when you asserted that your subjective personal preferences “align with the majority.”

Now, whether a subjective personal preference is held by one person of the majority still means it’s just a subjective personal preference so imposing it on me is incoherent (not that incoherence matters on Atheism—nor does it matter if I’m wrong about your fallacy).

One way to look at it is that “Athiesm has nothing to do with morality” which is the problem in the first place.

Yet, of course Atheism has to do with morality and ones preferences since it’s a world-view.

But, if “its just the nonbelief in deities” then in what area of your thinking about anything and everything do you accept God’s existence?

As for that you don’t bother saying how or why harming peoples’ lives is problematic, on Atheism.

You merely moved the goalpost (even if accidentally and not that it matters on Atheism) by now merely asserting, “most beings [another argumentum ad populum?] like humans, pain and unfairness is something the majority of us hate” so you you don’t bother saying how or why pain and unfairness are problematic, on Atheism nor why what the majority hates is any sort of standard.

Keep in mind that on Atheism pain and hate are the accidental byproducts of accidental bio-organic neural-reactions accidentally determined by the accidental laws of physics and as interpreted by accidentally existing apes within an accidental universe wherein there’s no universal imperative to not cause pain or be unfair—which his why you appeal to the majority in the first place.

As for “good evidence for a God” as you well known, the first step is for you to justify your demand for evidence, on your world-view (and then we can discuss your subjective idea of what is “good” evidence).

If you think that “morality” has “gotten progressively better” you must live a very cloistered life in a modern first world country.

But more importantly, if “morality did evolve,” and so is actually still evolving, then you have disqualified yourself from ever condemning anything since you can’t condemn any past actions (since what’s immoral today could have been moral back then: and visa versa, actually), nor could you really condemn anything today (since for all you know the moral zeitgeist is even now turning into a poltergeist and so what was moral now will be immoral one second later: and visa versa, actually).

But then again, you can’t ever actually condemn anything anyhow since your view is pure subjectivism—which you seek to bypass by appealing to the utter subjectivism of the majority.

Also, you hold to a world-view according to which there’s no universal imperative for accidentally existing apes adhering to accidentally evolved morality in the first place.

Sorry for the verbosity, I will seek to be a lot more succinct next time.

Dark

(MISUNDERSTANDING ADPOP SECTION) if u dont understand a fallacy then look it up, i never commited adpop, because i never said something is right because the majority says so. And morality has nothing to do with atheism and that isint a problem, atheism is purely the nonbelief in deities, it does not count as a world view because its not claiming how the world works or that god doesnt exist, its only saying that someone doesnt currently believe in a god. (PROBLEMATIC FOR ATHEISM RAMBLE U KEEP DOING) i only said evidence of gods existence is problematic for atheism, because that would render atheism unjustifiable and i never said pain is a problem for atheism because as i believe i said before, the nonbelief in god has nothing to do with pain or morality, pain and morality are concerns for beings because alot of us feel pain and want to avoid it and want to be treated fairly, which is why we have a legal system and why we have people that dont want to cause harm to others, no matter if theres a god or not because some people have empathy for others. I as an individual have a moral code and want to avoid pain, because pain and injustice negatively impacts me and the people i care about, which again has nothing to do with my nonbelief in a god, it only has to do with my subjective goals and wants. And for my justification for evidence of god, my justification is my preference for wanting truth, becuase knowledge leads to progress and understanding, which are 2 things i prefer because they help my life. (FOR YOUR MORALITY SECTION)  yes i live in a first world country, and i know that some other coutries have it like hell, which is irelevant to my point. And just beause morality has evolved (which i would also argue that the usage of the word “morality” is different between theist (especially abrahamic theist) and athiest because one side says we shouldn’t or should harm others because god says so and the athiest side harms or not harms others because of their individual codes and desires, but for the sake of the team im on, im a secular humanist, which at its most basic level is treating others kindly and fairly because it helps everyone thrive.) But i can still condem past, present, or future actions because they come in conflict with my moral code and ill correct myaelf because i didn’t mean to come off as someone that is a pure subjectivist, for example, if a group of people can agree that their moral code is not to harm eachother, or treat eachother unfairly like (secular humanist), then we can objectively say that some actions are to be condemned because they come in conflict with not harming or not treating eachother unfairly.

Ken Ammi

Friend, I appreciate the detailed interaction but I won’t be able to trade essays with you henceforth (your comment was just under 500 words).

Oh, you “never said something is right because the majority says so” you only said, “my personal preferences align with the majority of every human being on the planet” even when they’re wrong—got it!

Atheism is 100% “claiming how the world works” that’s follows from rejecting God so you are restricted by it to think in terms of an accidental universe, accidental life, etc.

But since you deny it’s a world-view (which means you disagree with Dawkins) in what area of your thinking about anything and everything do you actually accept God’s existence?

That “no matter if theres a god” regarding that “alot of us feel pain and want to avoid it and want to be treated fairly” and “some people have empathy for others” ranges from fallacious to on point, ironically.

See, “if theres a god” then pain is just an accidentally existing ape’s interpretation of accidental bio-sensory neural-reactions that are accidentally determined by the accidental laws of physics. Want to avoid it would merely be an a-ethical subjective personal preference as would be wanting to be treated fairly: don’t you ever incorporate your world-view’s implications into your world-view?

Yet, you nailed it with that only “some” people have empathy for others while on Atheism one might very well conclude that if people seek to avoid pain then they’ll be easy to oppress so as to avoid pain.

You hit the Atheism nail on the head again by continuing to evidence that this is solely about subjective personal preferences (as Tom had to admit) since you write in terms of how it “impacts me and the people i care about” which you also do as a subjective personal preference, “subjective goals and wants” as you rightly put it. But, beware, if I seek to deny your subjective goals and wants well then, that would be my subjective goals and wants and may the fittest win!

Now, another lesson to learn from the implications of you worldview is that since you admit that your justification for evidence of God is your “preference for wanting truth” then, guess what, if my preference is to be unconcerned for your preference than that’s all folks!

Besides, why do you have a preference for an accident? Why prefer supposed progress and alleged understanding in an existence wherein there is no objective progress and understanding—oops, right, because this is not about that, it’s about you emoting your subjective personal preferences like telling me which ice-cream flavor you prefer (which is an utterly impotent exercise).

Your juxtaposition of Secular Humanist vs. Abrahamic theists is a false dichotomy (not that it matters on Atheism) since on that view we shouldn’t harm others because God says so and because we are called to treat others as we want to be treated, because we are to love our neighbor, etc., etc., etc.

Now, since you demand that Atheism isn’t a world-view I’m unsure how you can so confidently speak for all Atheists when you write in terms of “the athiest side…the team” but consistency is not a universal imperative on Atheism.

In any case, on Secular Humanist “is treating others kindly and fairly because it helps everyone thrive” (even though people who actually call themselves “Humanists” tend to support the brutally violent serial murder of millions of beautiful, healthy, innocent, and defenseless human babies for money) as a mere subjective personal preference du jour (based on hidden assumptions).

Now, the concept of condemning is not like you’re thinking of it: you merely asserting you don’t like something. Thus, since you hold to that “morality has evolved” (past tense? When did it stop?) no, you can’t even say past actions were wrong if those past people were like you and appealed to their subjective “moral code.”

No, you don’t get objectivity via, guess what, an argumentum ad populum, “if a group of people can agree.”

Dark

i disagree with alot of what you said and some of what you said is very ignorant, so if you want to voice chat on some app preferably discord ill be happy to.

jwkivy

“1. On Atheism, reality (truth, facts) is accidental,”

False. I don’t think anything is accidental. Not believing ‘god’ things exist says absolutely nothing about what that person believes about reality. Just that they don’t think a supposed ‘god’ thingy is part of it.

“2. as is our ability to discern it,’

False again since, I don’t think anything is accidental.

“3. there’s no universal imperative to adhere to it,”

False AGAIN. Reality forces me to adhere to reality.

“4. nor to demand/expect others adhere to it.”

Reality ‘demands’ you adhere to reality, not atheists.

“And yet, on Atheism the most important of my personal preferences is still just a subjective personal preference”

Which is just a it is under theism.

“but you don’t bother saying how or why harming peoples’ lives is problematic, on Atheism.”

Because people PREFER not to be harmed. What’s your SUBJECTIVE reason that makes harming people ‘problematic’?

“Atheism is 100% “claiming how the world works”

Obviously false. What a bizarre statement. If anything, it’s claiming how the world DOESN’T work.

“I appreciate the detailed interaction but I won’t be able to trade essays with you henceforth (your comment was just under 500 words).”

Ummmm, you then proceeded to ‘trade’ an essay of over 500 words. Too funny.

Thanks for the laughs. Too bad you couldn’t evidence your imaginary friend exists.

Ken Ammi

It matters not if an accidental ape made “False” statements, on Atheism, right?

Also, you just typed a bunch of assertions (not that, that matters, on Atheism).

  1. “I don’t think anything is accidental” isn’t an elucidation.
  2. “I don’t think anything is accidental” isn’t an elucidation.
  3. How is it that “Reality forces me to adhere to reality”? I thought that all of us live in reality but some of us don’t adhere to it.
  4. “Reality ‘demands’ you adhere to reality, not atheists” see 3. above.

“Which is just a it is under theism” means you agree with me and is a tu quoque and is false and is contradictory since you also asserted “Reality forces me to adhere to reality.”

This time around you don’t bother saying why we ought to adhere to what people subjectively PREFER: especially when you agreed that “on Atheism the most important of my personal preferences is still just a subjective personal preference” thus, they are expressing personal subjective personal preferences and so can you if you don’t adhere to theirs.

Of course “Atheism is 100% “claiming how the world works” since it begins by merely asserting “how the world DOESN’T work” and then fill that gap with subjective personal preferences.

“henceforth” as in after that one.

As for “evidence your imaginary friend exists” well, since I don’t have an imaginary friend then that’s true but, in any case, did you not listen to the discussion: step one is for you to justify your demand for evidence.

Ken Ammi

“Can you counter-argue against Ken’s points? (the bulk of which were agreed to by Tom)?”

“No, I’ll just invent a quote and pretend that Ken said it.”

Interesting comment section strategy…

Alpha. Beta

You’re right, i had meant that to be a hypothetical conversation but it could be interpreted as a quote. My bad

Ken Ammi

Appreciate it, friend. My primary points were: 1. on Atheism, reality (truth, facts) is accidental, 2. as is our ability to discern it, 3. there’s no universal imperative to adhere to it, 4. nor to demand/expect that others adhere to it. Tom ended up agreeing with me on each point and admitted that. That’s why he took the fallback position that it all comes down to subjective personal preferences based fun du jour.

Ken Ammi

@Karl Žuvela  You’re clearly incapable of counter-arguing and seek to distract form that by being a childish jerk so you discredited yourself.

Ken Ammi

@Tony Noduskie  Logic and philosophy 101 is that if an argument or question is faulty there’s no imperative to counter-argue or answer but it must be dissected and corrected or ignored (not that any of that matters on Atheism).

You subjectively refer to my supposed, “complete dishonesty” but unless you’re a mind reader (in which case you’d be a terrible one) then how could you know I was dishonest. Also, you merely imply there’s something wrong with dishonest by don’t bother saying how or why, on Atheism.

Karl Žuvela

I don’t have to and had no intention of making a counter argument. I can and did make an observation of you.

There’s no point even trying to argue with you anyway because you only pretend at first you want to argue a topic then start weasling about. YOU discredited YOURSELF already. Get a life.

Alpha. Beta

I’m having trouble seeing where exactly Tjump agrees with each of those points. If you could provide some quotes or timestamps that would be a big help.

Ken Ammi

Beta  Not that it matters, right, if I do or don’t or he did or didn’t.

If you follow our discussion, he only took issue with wanting to swap “accident” with “random” or “change” and then was reduced him to claiming that for him it’s all about having subjective fun based on personal preferences du jour—that’s the whole reason he did that.

Alpha. Beta

“Not that it matters, right, if I do or don’t or he did or didn’t.”

You don’t think it matters if he did or didn’t agree with you? Would you mind if i assume he didn’t agree with you at all then?

Ken Ammi

If you follow our discussion, on his worldview it doesn’t matter: nothing does objectively.

Bert thompson

  1. No, realiry can be determined to exist by the first cause, in this case a quantum state that we know can be both a cause and effect 2. Cogito ergo sum is a fact and I can discern it simply by existing so youre wrong there.
  2. This is human nature. Theres so many types of theism that it seems even theists dont have an imperative to accurately represent what you thing is true.
  3. This is also irrelevant. Whether a person can convince others of truth wouldn’t change under your world view and is actually evidence of atheism.

Ken Ammi

What are you numbering? To what are you referring?

That brought the discussion to and end as no more replies were forthcoming.

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