Do you believe Nephilim ever existed? If yes, why? was a question posted to the Quora site.
Nick James replied:
No, of course not. There is no physical evidence that they or anything like them ever existed. They are just another part of the collection of made up mythological stories that constitute the bible, carefully constructed to frighten and awe people who had no way of testing such things. Even today, some believe this stuff. Such is the result of manipulation and 2,000 years of brainwashing and social engineering.
I, Ken Ammi, noted
Your hidden assumption is something about a universal imperative to adhere to “physical evidence” that must be tested but you don’t bother saying how so nor why on your world-view. Also, you positively affirm “mythological stories” so you must prove it. You also imply condemning supposed “mythological stories…to frighten and awe people…brainwashing and social engineering” but only as an impotent assertion.
Nick James
To be sure, physical evidence may provide proof. There is no physical evidence for nephilim, only some indistinct muttering in the bible. Archaeologists have never found them. They are just another made up thing in the bible, like Noah and Adam and Eve.
I cite ‘mythological stories’ as a category, not positively affirm them.
Ken Ammi
Well, I’m unsure how having your hidden assumption it pointed to you along with that “you don’t bother saying how so nor why on your world-view” as well as you’re your implied condemning “but only as an impotent assertion” is remedied by doubling down on your subjective assertion of “indistinct muttering in the bible.”
Now, you may say “I cite ‘mythological stories’ as a category, not positively affirm them” but you did just positively affirm “They are just another made up thing in the bible, like Noah and Adam and Eve.”
As for “There is no physical evidence for Nephilim…Archaeologists have never found them” and they likely never will since the last of them drowned in a flood that fundamentally changed the face of the Earth and buried them under who knows how many feet if not miles of debris, mud, sediments, etc.
Nick James
So, your god not only told you all about nephilim in his users’ guide book but also destroyed all the evidence of them, while taking huge care to lay down geological fossils going back about 700 million years? Odd how geologists don’t have any problem finding those other fossils.
Can you even get creationists to swallow such weak stories?
Ken Ammi
What, on your worldview, does any of this matter anyhow?
I said, “likely never will” but for all either one of us knows, Nephilim have been found and are on display at museums.
Nick James
What fantasy are you running with? No Nephilim have ever been found. There are no museum displays of Nephilim. All the picture of them are via Photoshop. These things are just an invention for a bible story. You know what invention means? Not real. Imaginary. Fake.
You disagree? Please supply links that do not include a creationist site or religious fantasies.
Ken Ammi
On your worldview there’s nothing wrong with accidentally existing apes running with fantasy, right?
I would tend to agree that “No Nephilim have ever been found” just like no common ancestor has ever been found.
Indeed, “There are no museum displays of Nephilim. All the picture of them are via Photoshop” so, what of it?
Now, you positive affirmed, “These things are just an invention…Not real. Imaginary. Fake” so you must prove it.
It’s also fascinating that you’re so biased and prejudice that you refuse links to “a creationist site.” But just read Genesis 6:4 in the most well attested text on antiquity: the Bible.
Nick James
Ken, my dear. Your earlier post suggested there might be Nephilim on display in museums and such. I call bullshit on that possibility. A Google search brings no meaningful hint of any Nephilim, ever, anywhere. These things do not and never did exist. Without some proof, they are just religious fantasy or storytelling. And no, some quote from the user’s guide is not proof.
Your statement “On your worldview there’s nothing wrong with accidentally existing apes running with fantasy, right? “ is word salad.
No common ancestors? There are common ancestor apes in the geological and biological record. I think you need to upgrade your sources on such things and try to understand what the science is telling you. of existanceHaving common ancestors explains why humans and chimpanzees have 98.8% identical DNA. You may find this illuminating. Chimpanzee–human last common ancestor – Wikipedia
Ken Ammi
- Just now
Please mind your manners.
“These things do not and never did exist” is a positive affirmation you must prove.
My point was simple: since we’ve no reliable physical description of them, we may be looking at their skeletons and not even know it.
Step one is for you to justify demanding proof (not evidence?).
You imply there’s something wrong with (supposed) “religious fantasy” and (alleged) “storytelling” but what, how, and why on your worldview?
“word salad” is Atheist-speak for: I’m incapable of dealing with this inconvenient fact so I’ll ignore it.
I think you need to upgrade your sources on such things and try to understand what the science is telling you since we’ve no evidence of a common ancestor (but it seems you don’t know what that term means so please look it up). Speaking of upgrading your sources on such things and try to understand what the science is telling you (that’s a reification fallacy, BTW—not that it matters on Atheism) the “98.8% identical DNA” isn’t only outdated, it’s irrelevant (especially on Atheism).
Nick James
What are you going on about, Ken? You have a bunch of biblical claims for which there is zero supporting evidence. Then you go on calling me out about your unsupported religious claims. Finally, you throw in some unrelated stuff about undefined ‘verifiable facts’. You need to plan what you are going on about, rather than shouting about ‘positive affirmation you must prove’. Nobody is going to prove any of this stuff – you are running on empty, staggering along on ‘belief’ and decades of grooming. It never happened.
Ken Ammi
It’s as if you’re not following the discussion but are just multiplying-down on making positive affirmations without proof. See, if “Nobody is going to prove any of this stuff” then the issue is easy to resolve: stop making positive affirmations you can’t prove.
Meanwhile, you refer to “supporting evidence” but ignore that I noted, “Step one is for you to justify demanding proof (not evidence?).”
Nick James
You seem to have overlooked the fact that most biblical claims have no supporting evidence and those amenable to scientific investigation are shown to be made up fluff. That is ok for bronze age desert goat herders, but not for anybody with an educated mind.
Noah’s flood and Nephilim are most certainly in the category of ‘made up stories’ with well understood motives – it is marketing, baby! That certain religionists try to fob them off as real is simply delusional or insulting, depending on how precious you are.
Ken Ammi
Okay, you’re clearly just a bot, not a serious person, or someone whose literally been ruined by Atheism.
Besides all of the stuff you conveniently sidestepped, I noted, “Meanwhile, you refer to ‘supporting evidence’ but ignore that I noted, ‘Step one is for you to justify demanding proof (not evidence?)’” and you plow ahead as if nothing happened. You double, triple, or whatever you count is now of simply asserting, “no supporting evidence.”
Are you so very afraid of your own collapsed worldview that you literally refuse to deal with it?
I can’t blame you but recommend you get a new worldview since you clearly hate yours.
So, here we go again:
“most biblical claims have no supporting evidence”: so you admit that some do.
“have no supporting evidence”: which is you subjectively painting with a broad brush broom.
“no supporting evidence”: the providing of which is not a universal imperative on your worldview.
“amenable to scientific investigation”: an incoherent category error since we’re dealing in history, not scient.
“shown to be made up fluff”: which even if true, matters not on your worldview.
“bronze age desert goat herders”: genetic logical fallacy.
“not for anybody with an educated mind”: prejudicial and also chronological snobbery.
“the category of ‘made up stories’”: which matter not on your worldview even if true and also a positive affirmation you haven’t proved.
“motives – it is marketing”: incoherent.
“fob them off as real is simply delusional or insulting”: which is even more incoherent since what’s “real” is accidental on your worldview and there’s no universal imperative to adhere to it nor to be not be “delusional” and what you find subjectively “insulting” isn’t a standard.
Okay, are you getting the picture of how failed your worldview is that you can’t even write a cogent sentence that’s not saturated with fallacies?
Nick James
Oh Ken! You really are mainlining on the Kool-Aid! You have repeatedly spouted about things, but you, and your religion, has provided zero proof of anything you have claimed. (And no, getting a mention in the bible is not ‘proof’.) All you have is assertion and ‘belief’, which is pretty pathetic way to live a life. Sorry, but you are still not making any progress in getting your head out of this obsession.
Ken Ammi
Friend, you’re literally incapable of dealing with the issues or your uber fallacies so you’re employing the Atheist 101 tactic of attempting to distract from these facts by doubling, tripling, quadrupling, etc., etc., etc., on jumping to conclusions by making demands without a premise.
So, to simplify things, again, upon what premise, from your worldview (which is supposed to be the one true one—even though it implies that truth is accidental) do you demand proof (not evidence?)?
And, ironically, keep in mind that this has been about you making positive affirmations without proof.
Nick James
The existence of Nephilim and Noah are extraordinary claims, but I am not making it. From the tone of your comment, you support the idea. Therefore it falls on you to provide evidence to support it. I am merely positively stating that no factual proof for them has been found. The idea is only believed by people who regard the bible as explicitly accurate and who also have the gullibility rating of the average 7 year old.
Ken Ammi
So, you’re going to run away from baring the BoP by merely parroting yet another Atheist 101 talking point?
Let’s try this “The existence of Nephilim and Noah are extraordinary claims”: there is no standard of extraordinariness so this is just a way for Atheists to appeal to subjectivism (what else do Atheists do?).
Also, you didn’t close the loop, it’s not a complete thought, “The existence of Nephilim and Noah are extraordinary claims” and, so, therefore—what? You don’t bother saying.
You then commit a tu quoque logical fallacy (not that it matters on Atheism) since you made a positive affirmation you can’t prove but rather than learning your lesson, taking it back, and not making more positive affirmations you can’t prove, you just say, “it falls on you to provide evidence to support it.”
But note that you also jumped to that merely asserted conclusion without a premise and based on hidden assumptions since, on Atheism, it’s not in the least bit the case that anything falls of anyone to do anything.
You also imply we’re to base our views on “evidence” and then “proof” as another mere assertion.
Actually, the idea is believed by many people of many cultures based on their own history, myth, legend, scripture, etc.
You’re also clearly childishly prejudice since you positively assert (without proof) that it’s only believed by people who, “have the gullibility rating of the average 7 year old” but then again, that’s another merely emotive assertion.
You really need to stop parroting Atheist talking points and actually thing about what you’re asserting. A critical thinking consultant could catch theses things before you keep discrediting yourself by posting them so have someone who knows how to think systematically and consistently edit before you post. As it is, I keep performing this service for you post hoc and you seem to refuse to learn from it.
Nick James
Ken – I am so impressed! You have a new pet phrase: ‘yet another Atheist 101 talking point’. Well, not so new. I’ve seen you use it at least 3 times now on other threads. Did even you get fed up of ‘positive assertion’? Oh, not quite, you just used it again.
Bottom line, old son. is that YOU have zero evidence of any of this stuff. You simply repeat the same tired religious assertions. Now, if I were to repeatedly trot out entire paragraphs earnestly telling everybody that unicorns or My Little Pony were real, I would be asked for proof, laughed at and fingers pointed at me. You seem to think that because your topic is religious that you get a free pass to tell such tales with no proof other than an old religious marketing book. Sorry, it does not work like that. Consider yourself laughed at; even though I am too polite to point my finger.
Ken Ammi
Oddly, I got a notification of a reply from you but don’t see it herein. Thus, I’ll just reply thusly.
So, you are still running away from your incapability of backing your assertions and this time by appealing to how many times I used a phrase: your integrity has plummeted below zero, friend.
Let’s try it this way—again—you merely assert as a jump to a conclusion based on hidden assumption, “YOU have zero evidence” but haven’t yet told me, not matter how many times I ask, how your worldview provides you a premise for implying that presenting evidence is a universal imperative.
See, we are not anywhere even near the realm of, “because your topic is religious that you get a free pass” since you utterly refuse to take the very first step in getting us to the point of discussing that.
It’s very, very simple: justify your demand for evidence, on your worldview.
Nick James
No Ken, that only happens to you. That people keep ignoring you may be a sign of something. Look it up in your magic book.
Sure there are flood stories all over the world. Humanity builds communities right next to water. Rivers flood. Stories! No magic required.
What they do not do is flood higher than the highest mountain. That is Everest, now and in the “time of Noah”. There has been no world-wide genocide by a god that threw a hissy fit. It is just an old Sumerian story plagiarised by Hebrew scribes in 600 BC to support a shiny new Israel. The Christians swallowed this ‘creative history’ and included it in the bible. Talk about a superb BS exercise.
Ken Ammi
Friend, that’s literally incoherent: how could it only happen to me when I have witnessed him doing it time and time (and time and time) again and his Atheist comrades have as little integrity as he does so they don’t call him on it and actually attack those who do call him on it. Thus, you discredited yourself again.
You seem to comfort yourself by playing a game of imagining some unformed thought about, “Humanity builds communities right next to water. Rivers flood. Stories!” which ignores the commonalities in those records and how they are about more than river level floods.
Also, you speak anachronistically when you imagine that “highest mountain…is Everest” since Everest is not eternal and so it came to be at some time and need not have existed pre-flood.
Now, you seem to be quite keen on making half-thought based assertion, since you never come to conclusions, so I will ask: you assert, “There has been no world-wide genocide by a god that threw a hissy fit. It is just an old Sumerian story plagiarised by Hebrew scribes in 600 BC to support a shiny new Israel. The Christians swallowed this ‘creative history’ and included it in the bible. Talk about a superb BS exercise” but you don’t bother saying what of it even if such is the case?
What is your worldview’s premise for merely implying condemning such things?
Nick James
Ken – so nice to hear from you! Did you have a good holiday?
I take it you are consuming ‘social drugs’? Your first and second paragraphs make no sense.
Your creationist ignorance is showing. Everest was around at the time Noah was building his imaginary boat, although nobody around the Middle East would have been aware of it – just as they did not know the Americas and Australia had unique animals that needed rescuing.. Science knows this, and knows that plate tectonic movement has raised it up by about 300 ft since then. It has been rising for roughly 50 million years – some while after the dinosaurs were destroyed.
Your fourth paragraph is simply that you are not paying attention to what I wrote. Start from the idea that Noah never happened and try again.
Your fifth paragraph? I’ll put it down to poor proof reading by you.
Ken Ammi
Passive aggressive much?
Seems like you didn’t understand by first sentence due to your literal ignorance. See, you attempted to comment on something of which you are literally unaware. I am the one how is the witness. But, of course, on your worldview it doesn’t matter if I make sense or not, am accurate or not, etc. That’s a point you keep running away from—very, very quickly.
You also seem to be ignorant of the various ancient records of more than local river floods which is why you decided to merely assert, “make no sense.” But, of course, on your worldview it doesn’t matter if I make sense or not, am accurate or not, etc. That’s a point you keep running away from—very, very quickly.
I realize that you think that you can pinpoint when things happened even if you assert it was hundreds of thousands or miiiiiiiiillions of years ago but I’m too skeptical. What we now call Everest gives indication of once having been submerged.
But again, on your worldview there’s literally nothing wrong with, “ignorance…imaginary boat…they did not know,” etc. but you clearly despise your worldview so much that you don’t bother applying your worldview’s implications to your worldview.
Not that it matters on your worldview, but “Science knows” is a reification fallacy.
So, in my fourth paragraph I asked a question but you decide to run away. You “Start from the idea that Noah never happened” which is a positive affirmation without proof—that’s been an issue all along.
My fifth paragraph was also a question, away from which you also ran.
I can’t really blame you since you seem to realize that your worldview is a collapsed failure: which is why you abandon it every single time you reply.
That brought the discussion to and end as no more replies were forthcoming—well, except for a hit and turn comment by Wayne Fiddler
And another one who doesn’t understand Burden of proof.
Its not whoever makes any claim whatsoever has to be able to prove that claim. Its when one makes an extraordinary claim, one must provide evidence for such a thing.
The Nephilim for example, claiming those aren’t real is not extraordinary. There’s no evidence such a thing every existed, just an extraordinary claim from an old book with no evidence to back said claim. Absense of evidence where one would expect evidence is evidence of absense.
Literally all but one of your points your demanding proof for are of an unproven extraordinary claim the bible makes.
Nephilim existing- Unproven bible claim.
Them being the bad guys/monsters in the book- Literally what they are.
A spirit realm existing- Unproven Bible claim
Noah’s Flood never happened- Literal fact, China has historical records of the time, they were not underwater. Neither were several other groups from around the world (like Egypt).
Silly- Thats fair.
Nasty and Scary this god fellow is- Well, he commited genocide in the book on several occasions, so, I really don’t see how thats inaccurate. He’s wiped out humanity, sends people to be tortured eternally for not loving him enough. He is nasty and scary, and it blows my mind you think hes the Good guy of the story.
Zero Biological or Geological evidence to support any of it- Umm, the worldview that uses facts and data, not the one that treats a 2,000 year old book written by goat herders that thought Lightning meant a man in the sky was angry at them as literal gospel?
Ken Ammi
Friend, before I get to your list of Atheist 101 talking points du jour: please re-read the discussion.
Nick positively affirmed, “The Nephilim are just an imaginary…‘Noah’s flood’ never happened…” thus, since he made a positive affirmation, the BoP is on him.
So, post a comment telling him that he’s “And another one who doesn’t understand Burden of proof” or, remain as you are and prove that you’re absolute zero integrity.
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