Pastor Samuel Harris on How Tall Were the Giants in the Bible? Uncovering the Truth Behind Biblical Giants

Pastor Samuel Harris founder the Bible Queries site on which he posted the article How Tall Were the Giants in the Bible? Uncovering the Truth Behind Biblical Giants.

When it comes to, “the most intriguing and mysterious figures mentioned in the Bible, the giants immediately come to mind” and by the vague, generic, subjective, multi-usage and modern English word giants he means, “towering beings” which is also subjective so fortunately, the point of the article, as the title notes, is, “How tall were they, really?”

Now, since he continues by referencing Goliath and Nephilim we have to wonder about his usage of the key term and, straight away, he notes, “the term ‘giants’ is more than just a reference to physical size. The word often conjures up images of massive, towering figures, but in the context of the Bible, it can represent both literal and symbolic concepts.” Those are very important points. I can think of circa six meanings/definition and usages of the word and note that in the English Bibles which use the term, it never even once even hints at implying anything about height of any sort whatsoever: see my book Bible Encyclopedias and Dictionaries on Angels, Demons, Nephilim, and Giants: From 1851 to 2010.

Pastor Samuel Harris notes, “In biblical terms, the word ‘giants’ translates from several Hebrew words, most notably ‘Nephilim’ and ‘Rephaim.’” Technical notes: those aren’t translations but are renderings and it renders Nephilim in 2 verses or Repha/im in 98% of all others.

Now, when he goes on to say, “These terms are used to describe individuals or groups of people who were either of great physical stature or had significant power and influence. The most well-known of these are the Nephilim, mentioned in Genesis, and Goliath, who faced off against David” it’s tricky since we’ve no reliable physical description of Nephilim and Rephaim were just subjectively unusually tall on average (Deut 2)—and tall is just as vague, generic, subjective, multi-usage as giants, and massive, towering. And, they were tall subjective to the average Israelite male who was 5.0-5.3 ft. in those days.

See, the constant usage of the term giants keeps things too generic, people merely imagine to what they think it refers, people chase that English word around a Hebrew Bible and end up connecting dots that aren’t contextually connectable, and end up with fallacious tall-tales.

So, when Pastor Harris refers to, “literal giants” that’s either literally meaningless or merely tell us that he’s referring to literally being merely subjectively taller than average. Such is why a study such as he authored is important.

As for, “The Bible references giants in several places” the first up is, “The Nephilim (Genesis 6:4)” but that begs the question if by, “references giants” means references to subjectively unusually taller personages or to where that English word appears in the English Bibles which employ it.

Again, we’ve no reliable physical description of Nephilim and reading something about height into the word giants is a word-concept fallacy.

The next notable example he offers is, “Goliath (1 Samuel 17:4): Perhaps the most famous giant in the Bible…described as ‘six cubits and a span’” and importantly, “wasn’t just tall—he was a warrior.”

The last prime example is, “King Og of Bashan (Deuteronomy 3:11): Another giant” and yet, we’ve no physical description for him at all which is why Pastor Harris is forced to merely appeal to his bed, “a bed made of iron that measured over 13 feet long” about which he tells us, “This detail hints at his immense size and strength” but that is based on various mere assumptions. The bed was a ritual object, not something on which he slept—see my book The King, Og of Bashan, is Dead: The Man, the Myth, the Legend—of a Nephilim Giant?

So, if we’re fixating on height: that was only one example.

We’re then told about, “Cultural and Historical Context of Giants” regarding, “enormous beings” who might have, “symbolized something more than just physical size; they represented power, chaos, or the otherworldly. So, when the Bible mentions giants, it’s possible that these figures were intended to convey not just their literal size, but their symbolic importance as well.” Yet, again, when the English Bible mentions giants it never conveys anything about any size at all. And when the Hebrew Bible mentions what the English Bible has as giants it’s merely identifying people groups and not anything about height of any sort.

He then backs up to begin with that, “The term ‘Nephilim’ is often translated as ‘giants,’” which, again, isn’t a translation, “but it’s important to note that the exact meaning of the word is somewhat unclear” thought it’s generally agreed that it it’s the male plural of the root naphal which means fall/fallen/feller/to cause to fall, etc.

As for that, “Nephilim were either fallen angels or their offspring” they were offspring. As for, “with extraordinary physical…characteristics” again, we’ve no reliable indication of that. As Pastor Harris put it, “While Genesis doesn’t provide a specific height for the Nephilim, the reference to them as ‘heroes of old, men of renown’ implies they were both physically impressive and held a significant status in the ancient world. Their size and strength seem to have set them apart, creating an aura of awe and fear” which are presumptive arguments from silence: historically, many heroes of renown haven’t been taller than the subjective average.

We then go back to Goliath about which it’s refreshingly noted, “six cubits and a span…approximately 9 feet 9 inches tall…However, it’s worth noting that some ancient manuscripts, such as the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Septuagint” and I will add Flavius Josephus, “list Goliath’s height as four cubits and a span, which would be around 6 feet 9 inches” so that’s the preponderance of the earliest data since the taller option is from the Masoretic Text.

He then repeats his speculations about Og, “Og’s bed…suggests that Og himself must have been of enormous size” and admits, “although the exact height of Og is not specified in the text” well, not just the exact height but no height if provided.

He then comments on Anakim and does some vague writing at this point which is:

When the Israelite spies were sent to scout the land of Canaan, they reported:

We saw the Nephilim there (the descendants of Anak come from the Nephilim). We seemed like grasshoppers in our own eyes, and we looked the same to them. (Numbers 13:33, NIV)

This passage doesn’t give an exact measurement but conveys the sheer size of these giants compared to the Israelites. The phrase “we seemed like grasshoppers” is likely hyperbolic, emphasizing the overwhelming presence and size of the Anakim.

It wasn’t, “the Israelite spies” in general, but the 10 unfaithful, disloyal, unreliable ones who “reported” an evil report and were rebuked by God: there’s literally zero reason to believe them—they also contradicted Caleb, Joshua, Moses, God, and the rest of the whole entire Bible—see my post Chapter sample: On the Post Flood Nephilim Proposal.

Since God didn’t fail, didn’t miss a loophole, the flood wasn’t much of a waste, etc., etc., etc., then it’s literally impossible that there were ever any post-flood Nephilim in any way, shape, or form.

Thus, it’s an unreliable tall-tale that they, “saw the Nephilim there” and an unreliable tall-tale that, “the descendants of Anak come from the Nephilim” (which is missing from the LXX) and an unreliable very tall-tale that, “We seemed like grasshoppers in our own eyes, and we looked the same to them” which is why we’ve no reliable physical description of them so their size is a non-issue.

So, when it comes to answering Pastor Samuel Harris’ question, “should we take these descriptions of height and size literally” the answer is that we’re only told two specific heights: Goliath’s along with the range issue and an Egyptian, 2 Sam 23.

We then get vague references such as Saul being head and shoulders taller than the subjective average.

And we get clearly metaphorical statement such as correlations to cedars (Amos 9 telling us that Amorites were big and strong), and the unreliable tall-tale about correlation to grasshoppers.

Biblically, subjectively unusual height is about a close to an utterly non-issue as one can get.

He notes, “historical and archaeological records from various cultures…Skeletal remains and historical accounts have documented people who were well over 7 feet tall…” but those are vague assertions and not citations: and I’m very well aware of them since I’ve written about such in books such as Nephilim and Giants: Believe It or Not!: Ancient and Neo-Theo-Sci-Fi Tall Tales.

As for, “Figurative Interpretation: Symbolism and Hyperbole” he examples, “Take, for example, the report of the [10 unreliable] Israelite spies in Numbers 13:33. The [10 unreliable] spies describe themselves as ‘grasshoppers’ in comparison to the Anakim. This language might be intended to convey their fear and sense of inadequacy rather than to provide a precise measurement of height. The giants, in this sense, could symbolize the enormous challenges that lay ahead for the Israelites in conquering the Promised Land.”

And what were those challenges? Well, contextually the unfaithful, disloyal, unreliable guys were clearly intimidated since as itinerate tent dwellers they were faced with confronting six strong people groups living in fortified and very large cities. This then led to them making up a fear-mongering, scare-tactic, “Don’t go in the woods…” style tall-tale.

Pastor Harris then has a section titled, “Scholarly Perspectives: Diverse Interpretations” and here we go again with my (pseudo) spam since I will say, see my book The Scholarly Academic Nephilim and Giants: What do Scholarly Academics Say About Nephilim Giants?

Then, when it comes to, “My Reflections on Literal vs. Figurative Interpretation” he does, “find value in both approaches. The literal interpretation” which yields virtually nothing and “The figurative interpretation” which leads to sermonizing about defeating the giants in your life type of stuff. But hey, that’s me.

The way he put it is, “Personally, I find value in both approaches. The literal interpretation highlights the physical reality of the challenges faced by God’s people, reminding us that sometimes, the obstacles we face are very real and tangible. The figurative interpretation, on the other hand, encourages us to look beyond the physical and consider the deeper spiritual truths that these stories convey.”

The article then basically re-repeats most of what I’ve covered—“Giants as Symbols of Opposition…Giants as Representations of Evil and Chaos”—so I will jump to, “the Flood wiping out the Nephilim” well, yeah so if we’re to accept the evil report: just how did they get past the flood, past God?

Well, that is left as one of those gigantic mysteries—since it’s un-biblical and all post-flood Nephilologists are forced, by definition, to make up fantasy tall-tales about how it happened all of which imply that God failed, that He missed a loophole, that the flood was much of a waste, etc., etc., etc.

He also makes some interesting points about, “Giants in Extrabiblical Literature and Mythology…Gilgamesh, the hero of the epic, is often described as a giant of immense strength and stature…Greek mythology is also replete with stories of giants, most notably the Gigantes, a race of giants born from Gaia (the Earth),” etc.

I do have a concern about going cross-cultural due to once we fixate on giants it’s too easy to water everything down—such as by referring to giants—in order to mash everything together. There’s also the sociological aspect upon which Pastor Samuel Harris touched that I will explain as that if you’re going to tell a tall-tale then well, you need someone who’s tall. If you’re going to write about your victories, you might as well claim you were victorious over giants. If you have to admit defeat then you might as well claim that, after all, you were defeated by giants.

He also has a section on, “Giants in Apocryphal and Pseudepigraphal Texts” so, here I go again, see my books The Apocryphal Nephilim and Giants: Encountering Nephilim and Giants in Extra-Biblical Textsand In Consideration of the Book(s) of Enoch plus my article How Nephilim Absconded from the Tanakh and Invaded Folkloric Territory.

1 Enoch is Bible contradicting folklore from centuries, if not millennia, after the Torah and has Nephilim having been MILES tall which is great folklore but poor reality—Pastor Harris has a, “300 cubits (about 450 feet!)” reading but it’s 3,000 ells.

Having written some dozen Nephilology books as well as hundreds of articles, may being reviews and discussions, I’ll call this one fair enough and only in need of some technical tweaks in terms of specifics and consistency.

See my various books here.

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Zachary Garris’s “Knowing Scripture” on “Giants in the Land: A Biblical Theology of the Nephilim, Anakim, Rephaim (and Goliath)”

Zachary Garris founded a site called Knowing Scripture from which I will be reviewing the article Giants in the Land: A Biblical Theology of the Nephilim, Anakim, Rephaim (and Goliath). Garris is a pastor who holds a Master of Divinity from Reformed Theological Seminary (Jackson, Mississippi) and a Juris Doctor from Wayne State University Law School.

I previously posted My review of Zachary Garris’ review of Douglas Van Dorn’s book “Giants Sons of the Gods”.

Since Garris begins by noting, “Christians, including many pastors and scholars, tend to gloss over the references to giants in the Bible” we will have to see if he tells us to whom or what he is referring since giants is a vague, generic, subjective, multi-usage and modern English word.

Well, he wrote, “The first mention of giants in the Bible is the Nephilim in Genesis 6:1-4” but that was just after, “Israel initially refused to enter the land because of giants” so that will be a gigantic problem since he will have to elucidate just how it is that they, contextually specifically Nephilim, made it past the flood, past God.

He begins to elucidate section, “The Sons of God and Giant Nephilim (Genesis 6:1-4)” (incidentally, biblically contextually, “Giant Nephilim” means, “Nephilim Nephilim”) by noting, “‘sons of God’ were spirit beings…spirit beings/angels (Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7)” but there is no indication that Angels are spirits—and, incidentally, appealing to one wrongly translated English word will not change that. Angels are always described as looking like human males, performing physical actions, and without indication that such isn’t their ontology. See my book, What Does the Bible Say About Angels? A Styled Angelology.

I do agree that they were Angels and, in fact, the original, traditional, and majority view among the earliest Jewish and Christians commentators, starting in BC days, was the Angel view as I proved in my book, On the Genesis 6 Affair’s Sons of God: Angels or Not?: A Survey of Early Jewish and Christian Commentaries Including Notes on Giants and the Nephilim.

Ergo, I agree with Zachary Garris that the view that, “the mixing of the lines of Seth and Cain assumes that everyone in Seth’s line was godly and everyone in Cain’s line was wicked…is not something the text ever claims.” In fact, the Sethite view is a late-comer of a view based on myth and prejudice which only creates more problems than it solves (so, more than zero).

Having referred to Nephilim as giants, he then notes, “Genesis 6:4 never explicitly calls the Nephilim ‘giants.’” Yet, that is linguistically confusing since why would a Hebrew text refer to Nephilim by an English word that did not yet exist and biblically contextually, that means, “never explicitly calls the Nephilim ‘Nephilim’” so something is afoot—a big-foot?

So, we now come right down to it since Zachary Garris continues directly with:

However, the Nephilim have often been considered giants because of the description of the giants in the land as those who come from the Nephilim in Numbers 13:32-33.

Also, the Septuagint translates both the Hebrew נְּפִלִ֞ים (Nephilim) and גִּבֹּרִ֛ים (gibborim, “mighty men” or “men of renown”) in Genesis 6:4 as γίγαντες (gigantes, “giants”).[1]

(It may be that the Septuagint translated Nephilim as “giants” because of the account in Numbers 13, though some think Nephilim comes from the Aramaic word naphiyla for giant.[2])

Notes:

[1] The Septuagint also translates גִּבֹּרִ֛ים (gibborim) as γίγαντες (gigantes, “giants) in Ezekiel 32:21, 27, a passage that may describe giants and their place in Sheol after death. Nimrod was a גִּבֹּ֖ר (gibbor), which the Septuagint also translates as γίγας (“giant”) in Genesis 10:8-9.

[2] Michael Heiser, The Unseen Realm, 107.

So, by giants he actually means something uselessly generic about subjectively unusual height. This means that his usage does not agree with the usage of English Bibles wherein giants merely renders (does not even translate) Nephilim in 2 verses or Repha/im in 98% of all others and so never even hints at anything to do with any sort of height whatsoever.

Thus, the misuse of that word will haunt Garris’ entire article.

Perhaps, “Nephilim have often been considered” subjectively unusually tall, “because of the description of the” subjectively unusually tall personages, “in the land as those who come from the Nephilim in Numbers 13:32-33.” Yet, who described anyone as such? Well, that is based on one single sentence from an evil report by ten unreliable guys whom God rebuked. Since theirs is the only physical description we have of Nephilim then we have no reliable physical description of them and so their size is a non-issue.

You see, by, “the description” Garris was referring to the Num 13:32-33 evil report and that anyone post-flood was or, “come from the Nephilim” is just part of that tall-tale. Any such concept implies that God failed, that He missed a loophole, that the flood was much of a waste, etc., etc., etc., see my post Chapter sample: On the Post Flood Nephilim Proposal.

He missed something regarding how, “the Septuagint translates” or, renders actually, since it is Nephilim and gibborim but also Repha/im: and rendering three very different words with very different morphologies and very different meaning all by only one word was a terrible idea, see my linguistics book Bible Encyclopedias and Dictionaries on Angels, Demons, Nephilim, and Giants: From 1851 to 2010.

It is also not accurate to assert, “γίγαντες (gigantes, ‘giants’” since it means earth-born. Eze 32:21, 27 is just using the general descriptive term gibbor/might/mighty and the root naphal/fall/fallen, etc. Thus, “giants and their place…Nimrod was a גִּבֹּ֖ר (gibbor)…γίγας (‘giant’)” is misleading and based on his mistaken views of what the English and Hebrew and Greek mean: gigas or gigantes refers to a Greek false Earth goddess—with earth-born implying born of Gaia/Gaea—and not anything about any sort of height at all.

As for, “It may be that the Septuagint translated Nephilim as ‘giants’” well, it did not since giants is an English word, not a Greek one. But sure, it may be due to playing off of or erroneously accepting the fallacious, “account in Numbers 13.”

As for, “naphiyla for giant” well, that is when it becomes a battle of the experts since Dr. Heiser claimed that naphiyla means giant but the J. Edward Wright Endowed Professor of Judaic Studies (who is J. Edward Wright, Ph.D. himself, and who is the Director of the Arizona Center for Judaic Studies at the University of Arizona) notes, “The term traditionally translated as ‘giants’ in both the Greek Septuagint (γιγαντες) and now in English is נפילים nephilim, a term based on the root נפל npl meaning ‘fall.’ It has nothing to do with size” and specifies that this goes for both Hebrew and Aramaic as “The root npl in Aramaic also means fall and not giants.”[1]

Yet, even a battle of the experts may be much ado about not very much since when Heiser claims it means giant the logical question is to ask him, “What does giants mean?” Fortunately, he answered that for us, “I don’t think the biblical giants were taller than unusually tall people of modern times (between 7-9 feet).”[2]

At least Garris goes on to qualify that, “Whether descendants of the Nephilim were actually in the land of Canaan is uncertain, as the Israelite spies may have been exaggerating their account” about which I will say that it is quite certain since God didn’t fail, didn’t miss a loophole, the flood wasn’t much of a waste, etc., etc., etc. and it was more than an exaggeration, it was a straight up tall-tale that contradicted Moses, Caleb, Joshua, God, and the whole rest of the entire Bible.

Yet, he also wrote, “However, exaggeration is unlikely because Genesis 6:4 says the Nephilim were on the earth ‘in those days, and also afterward’ and the link between the Anakim and Nephilim in Numbers 13:33 seems to be an editorial comment (possibly referring back to Numbers 6:4). At minimum, the claim in Numbers 13:33 shows that the Israelites were aware that the Nephilim of old had a reputation of being giants.”

Note the missing piece of his assertion: he told us, “in those days, and also afterward” but did not get around to the key point, afterwards of when? Surely, he implies the flood but the flood is not even mentioned until a full 13 verses later—so he is cheating by reading ahead and then looping back—and the verse tells us exactly to what days it is referring.

It also cannot mean anything about the flood since the only post-flood reference to Nephilim is from the evil report.

Gen 6:4 states, “Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown.”

The question becomes: when were those days?

Well, Gen 6:1 told us, “When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them, the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose.”

The next question becomes: when was afterward?

Since it was after those days then it was simply after, “When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them…”

Thus, the began doing it then and they continued to do it but that’s all pre-flood.

As for, “the link between the Anakim and Nephilim” that is not only also from the evil report but only from non-LXX versions of that report since the LXX lacks any mention of Anakim there—and, it is also logically, bio-logically, and theo-logically impossible.

So, “At minimum, the claim in Numbers 13:33 shows that the Israelites were” told a tall-tale which continued or began de novo, a mere story, “that the Nephilim of old had a reputation of being giants”—keeping in mind that Garris is misusing that word.

He then wrote:

In the context of Genesis 6, God sent the flood to wipe out violent humans, including the Nephilim, seen in the language of “all flesh” (Genesis 6:12-13). God continued the human race through Noah, a new Adam, who was not tainted by Nephilim blood. Noah’s direct lineage is given all the way back to Adam (Genesis 5:1-32), and he is said to be “blameless in his generations” (Genesis 6:9), possibly referring to his pure line—notice the plural “generations” (דֹֽרֹתָ֑יו). In spite of the flood, giants eventually made a comeback and dwelt in the land of Canaan.

This is what I meant about God not failing, not missing a loophole, the flood not being much of a waste, etc. since, “God sent the flood to wipe out violent humans, including the Nephilim” and if, “God sent the flood to wipe out violent humans, including the Nephilim” then Nephilim did not make it past the flood in any way, shape, or form.

Yet, consider the utter damage that post-flood Nephilology (literally one single unreliable sentence) does to Garris’ theology proper since despite what he just affirmed about God’s intent and actions, “In spite of the flood” in spite of God Himself, “giants eventually made a comeback” so his concept of the flood was much of a waste and God must have missed a loophole that I hope Garris will elucidate—it will have to be an un-biblical made up one, by definition, but we should be told what it is nevertheless.

The subjection, “Nephilim and Anakim in the Land of Canaan (Numbers 13:21-33)” is much the same since there is literally nothing more to which he can appeal for post-flood Nephilim nor any (non-LXX) correlation to Anakim.

No wonder then that Zachary Garris notes, “Numbers 13 is the key passage on giants in the land of Canaan” since it is the only one: yet, keep in mind that by, “giants in the land” he actually means subjectively unusually tall personages in the land which is slippery enough to be meaninglessly useless—actually it is useful since it allows for making many assertions about giants since the (faulty) premise is that virtually anyone who is subjectively unusually tall is a Nephil (or at least hints that they are or might be).

Garris specifies, “Moses sent 12 Israelite spies…Caleb, one of the spies, urged Israel to go up and occupy the land, but the other spies (except Joshua) said they were not able…God even killed the 10 unfaithful spies.” Yet, he noted, “The spies lacked faith” and then, “what concerns us here is…Was their report accurate? If so, this would help explain why the spies were so fearful.” Yet, it is a combination. The original, reliable, report in Num 13 noted, “the people who dwell in the land are strong, and the cities are fortified and very large…we saw the descendants of Anak…Amalekites…Hittites, the Jebusites, and the Amorites…And the Canaanites.”

Thus, the unfaithful, disloyal, unreliable guys were clearly intimidated since as itinerate tent dwellers they were faced with confronting six strong people groups living in fortified and very large cities. This then led to them making up a fear-mongering, scare-tactic, “Don’t go in the woods…” style tall-tale. As Garris noted, “Moses never mentions the Anakim as coming from the Nephilim, this may be the part that the spies fabricated in order to support their case against entering the land.”

Oddly, Garris notes, “this exaggeration must be limited. This is because Moses confirms the spies’ account in Deuteronomy 9:1-2, where he says that Israel would cross the Jordan to ‘dispossess nations greater and mightier than you, cities great and fortified up to heaven, a people great and tall, the sons of the Anakim, whom you know, and of whom you have heard it said, ‘Who can stand before the sons of Anak?’ (cf. Deuteronomy 1:28; 2:10). The people in the land, particularly the Anakim, were in fact tall and mighty.”

Well, sure they were subjectively tall (meaning taller than the average Israelite male who was 5.0-5.3ft in those days) but he seems to have missed the key data point: Moses did not say one single word about Nephilim nor that Anakim were related to them when he related the Num 13 events. Moses was too practical, he was concerned about the real dangers on the ground such as the notorious Anakim and not some fantasy tall-tale about Nephilim.

But note what I noted, the (faulty) premise is that virtually anyone who is subjectively unusually tall is a Nephil (or at least hints that they are or might be). and Garris did just that, “The people in the land, particularly the Anakim, were in fact tall…”

As for the Anakim, he rightly notes, “They were descendants of a man name Anak” who was Arba’s son and there is zero indication Arba or Anak or anyone before Arba was related to Nephilim.

Garris has to admit, “Numbers 13:33 mentions that these sons of Anak ‘come from the Nephilim’ (which is the only explicit connection between the Anakim and Nephilim in Scripture)”: literally all post-flood Nephilology is based on one single sentence from the evil report.

Yet, he does on to argue, “three reasons for believing the statement in Numbers 13:33 is correct”:

Genesis 6:4 says the Nephilim were on the earth at a later time—“The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward.” The “afterward” is presumably after the flood. Numbers 13:33 is the only other mention of Nephilim in Scripture, so this would explain the comment in Genesis 6:4.

The spies’ claim to have seen the Nephilim in Numbers 13:33 is followed with what reads like an editorial comment that seeks to connect the reference of the “sons of Anak” in 13:28 with the reference to Nephilim in 13:33—“the sons of Anak, who come from the Nephilim.” In this case, the author of Numbers considered the spies’ report of the Nephilim accurate and then added his own explanation that the Anakim came from the Nephilim.

This connection between Anakim and the Nephilim in Numbers 13:33 is the only apparent explanation as to why some of the Canaanites were so tall. While some scholars suggest that these were only giants relative to the shorter Israelites (meaning six feet would be tall), Og’s bed and Goliath’s height suggest these were in fact genuine giants over nine feet tall (see below).

If the giants in the land came from the Nephilim, how did this happen when the Nephilim were wiped out in the flood? While some argue that the flood was only local, this would still be an unlikely explanation because the flood was intended to wipe out the Nephilim in Genesis 6. Thus there are two likely explanations: (1) The same event transpired later in history, as spirit beings again bred with women and produced more Nephilim; (2) Nephilim genes were passed down through Noah’s daughters-in-law. These wives of Ham, Shem, and Japheth were not descended from Noah and thus potentially had Nephilim genes in them.

I am unsure why he reiterated so much but let us review the parts we have not had to repeat too many times as of yet.

That “The ‘afterward’ is presumably after the flood” is just a presumption and a fallacious one and Num 13:33 is not the only explanation for the comment in Gen 6:4 since Gen 6:4, not just a fragment of it, is the only explanation—that plus theology proper.

Keep in mind that it was not generically, “The spies’…the spies’” but the ten unreliable ones who God rebuked—to death.

Do you see how Num 13:33 becomes a worldview-philosophy-hermeneutic? First, for some (literally God forsaken) reason, someone believes it and then they run around the Bible picking and choosing single verses or fragments of verses to misread, misinterpret, misunderstand, and misapply in order to conform it to the evil report. Garris did this with Gen 6:4 and now since, again, anyone who is subjectively unusually tall is a Nephil (or at least hints that they are or might be), so then, “Anakim and the Nephilim in Numbers 13:33 is the only apparent explanation as to why some of the Canaanites were so tall” and yet, what makes him merely assert that Nephilim were even just subjectively unusually tall? You guess it: the evil report—and the evil report plus his misuse of the word giants making him think that Gen 6:4 was saying something about the Nephilim’s height when it was not.

See, it all begins and ends with the evil report and asserting that giants in Gen 6:4 refers to height is not only linguistically unsupportable but is a word-concept fallacy.

There is literally zero indication of, “The same event transpired later in history” and that too implies that God failed to account for that loophole. There is literally zero indication of, “Nephilim genes were passed down through Noah’s daughters-in-law” and that too implies that God failed to account for that loophole.

See, he was forced to make up un-biblical stuff and the only thing it accomplished is to support an evil report by guys whom God rebuked and damaged theology proper—what a tragically high price to pay.

Now, he wrote, “connection between Anakim and the Nephilim in Numbers 13:33” exclusively, of course, “why some of the Canaanites were so tall…Og’s bed and Goliath’s height” but continued with a section titled with, “…Og of Bashan, One of the Last Rephaim”: indeed, he was a Repha, not a Nephil so then what happened to Garri’s theory?

I will re-write what he next wrote as per his misuse of the term giants, “Israel was afraid of the merely subjectively unusually tall people in the land of Canaan, and it would have to be a later generation that dealt with the merely subjectively unusually tall people under Joshua’s leadership. However, Israel still had to deal with a merely subjectively unusually tall person while in the in the wilderness, Og of Bashan. As Israel went up the way to Bashan, King Og came out against them for battle.” See, it is not so exciting when you keep in mind what he is actually saying.

Yet, the oddest thing about it is that he appeals to a man for whom we do not have a physical description, so this is an argument from silence and piling tall-tales atop tall-tales. The best, the only, thing that Garris can offer is to write, “his bed was a bed of iron. Is it not in Rabbah of the Ammonites? Nine cubits was its length, and four cubits its breadth, according to the common cubit (Deuteronomy 3:11)…Seeing that a cubit was about 18 inches, Og’s bed was about 13 feet 6 inches long. This suggests he was a giant.”

Well, it only suggests that if you are unfamiliar with the relevant data, base that on various mere assumptions, and are desperate to find giants. I know because I wrote the book The King, Og of Bashan, is Dead: The Man, the Myth, the Legend—of a Nephilim Giant? As it turns out, his bed was a ritual object, not something on which he slept.

Recall what I noted in that, “He missed something regarding how, ‘the Septuagint translates’…but also Rephaim” well, in this case he got around to noting, “Og was of the remnant of the Rephaim, which the LXX interestingly translates as ‘giants’ (γιγάντων)” which, of course, it did not: it did not use an English word and the Greek one is gigantes/earth-born.

Zachary Garris wrote, “Who were the Rephaim? They were likely the descendants of a giant named Rapha. Rapha (רָפָה) is mentioned six times in the Bible (2 Samuel 21:16, 18, 20, 22; 1 Chronicles 20:6, 8)” without any indication whatsoever that he was even merely subjectively unusually tall.

He then fixates on merely subjectively unusual height by promising us, “some interesting information about the Rephaim” which is merely that Rephaim were a.k.a. Zamzummim (or Zuzim) and that Emim and Anakim were Rephaim subgroups: like a clan of a tribe—oh, and that Rephaim were merely subjectively, “tall” on average. He focused a lot on Deut 2 but seems to have missed that even a text that tells us so much about Rephaim, by any other name, did not even hint at any such thing as them having anything whatsoever to do with Nephilim.

We then get more about, “giants” and, “γίγαντας, ‘giants’” and finally, “The Amorites may also have been giants. Amos 2:9-10 says, ‘the Amorite before them, whose height was like the height of the cedars,’ and Og was also an Amorite (Deuteronomy 3:8).” Let us begin with that the quote is not of 9-10 but only a fragment of 9. If, for whatever giants-obsessed reason, someone takes God, via Amos, telling us that Amorites were big and strong as implying some sort of one-to-one mathematical ratio-based calculation correlation between cedars and Amorites (what of the strength of oaks and Amorites?) then, by definition of logical extension, they must also assert that Amorites also had literal fruits and roots growing right out of their bodies.

That would be because, after all, 9-10 state, “Yet it was I who destroyed the Amorite before them, whose height was like the height of the cedars and who was as strong as the oaks; I destroyed his fruit above and his roots beneath. Also it was I who brought you up out of the land of Egypt and led you forty years in the wilderness, to possess the land of the Amorite.”

Keep in mind that the only reason to think that Nephilim were even merely subjectively unusually tall was the evil report. That Anakim (in non-LXX versions) being tall has something to do with Nephilim means that only by an unsupportable extension, all Rephaim were Nephilim since they were, on average, merely subjectively unusually tall so you can then even throw Og into the mix even though we do not have a physical description of him—and on and on goes how to concoct a tall-tale from literally zero reliable data: but wait, perhaps Goliath will save the day, stand by.

See, this is followed by, “Abraham…went and defeated Chedorlaomer—the merely subjectively unusually tall killer…Joshua’s…victories over the merely subjectively unusually tall in the land…Og was one of the Rephaim (merely assumed) merely subjectively unusually tall persons…”

He then gets into linguistics with that, “The Rephaim are also associated in the OT with Sheol, the place of the dead” but to cut to the chase, since the root word rapha ranges in meaning from healing/healer to dead, he opts for dead and reads the root word as a reference to the Rephaim people. It is also a case of incorporating Ancient Near East Pagan mythology into biblical theology since in Ugaritic texts when a king or hero died they were called king or hero but after the had been dead for some time they were referred to as Rephaim—see my article Dead Kings and Rephaim The Patrons of the Ugaritic Dynasty.[3]

Thus, a reference to the dead turns into that the Rephaim people groups, “are said to be inhabitants of Sheol” so now they are some sort of living dead—and, “dead giants.”

We then come to the subsection, “Joshua and Caleb Drive Out the Anakim (Joshua 11; 14–15)” which is about Anakim and not about Nephilim so Garris will have to force them to be Nephilim.

Garris writes, “Joshua and Caleb were the only two of the 12 spies who believed that Yahweh would give them victory over the giants in the land (Numbers 13:30; 14:6-9)” but this is giving into the false evil report narrative. The most one can say is that the original report referred to the people as, “strong” and even the first attempt at dissuasion by the ten agreed that the issue was that they were, “stronger” then the Israelites—even that is technically taking it up a notch from strong to stronger—but in the evil report they took it up another notch by asserting that, “all the people that we saw in it are of great height” (as vague, generic, subjective, and multi-usage as that is)—and, of course, they then took that up many more notches with their tall-tale about Nephilim.

So, why fixate on, “giants” when the reliably contextual issue was as itinerate tent dwellers they were faced with confronting six strong people groups living in fortified and very large cities? And note that we cannot even verify that, “all the people that we saw in it are of great height”—see my article Were “all the people” in Cannan “of great height”?

When Zachary Garris goes on to write the following, we know it has nothing to do with Nephilim and at times, not even anything to do with personages who were merely subjectively unusually tall, “Joshua and Caleb drove out those giants…Joshua cut off the Anakim and ‘devoted’ (herem) them to destruction (Joshua 11:21)…‘devote’ the Canaanites…the Canaanites included the giants…Anakim,” etc.

In my book What Does the Bible Say About Giants and Nephilim? A Styled Giantology and NephilologyI devoted (pun intended) a whole chapter to herem and there is zero indication that it ever had anything to do with Nephilim or anyone related to Nephilim—and both would be impossibilities.

We then come to he who may save the giants day with the subsection, “David Kills Goliath (1 Samuel 17)” wherein Garris quotes:

…Goliath of Gath, whose height was six cubits and a span. He had a helmet of bronze on his head, and he was armed with a coat of mail, and the weight of the coat was five thousand shekels of bronze. And he had bronze armor on his legs, and a javelin of bronze slung between his shoulders. The shaft of his spear was like a weaver’s beam, and his spear’s head weighed six hundred shekels of iron (1 Samuel 17:4-7).

Garris notes:

Moreover, Goliath is called a gibbor (גִּבּוֹר), a “mighty man,” in 1 Samuel 17:51, associating him with the gibborim-Nephilim of Genesis 6:4. (The ESV translates gibbor as “champion” in 1 Samuel 17:51, but this is a different Hebrew word than that for “champion” in 17:4.) David, of course, proved to be his own gibbor in defeating Goliath (1 Samuel 16:18).

Note the effects of fixating on Nephilim and the mindset of Nephilim equals subjectively unusual height as per the evil report ergo anyone who is of subjectively unusual height must be a Nephil (or at least hints that they are or might be)—especially only considering non-LXX versions which allow us to thrown Goliath into the mix: gibbor is, “associating him with the gibborim-Nephilim” but why not assert that gibbor is, “associating him with” God Himself who is referred as a gibbor in Isa 9?

In fact, it is not just that, “David, of course, proved to be his own gibbor” but that David had an elite force of gibborim since, again, that is a mere descriptor that informs us they were unusually mighty, not that they were Nephilim. They only way they were associated with Nephilim is very generically since both were mighty so then well, sure but that has nothing to do with biology and we will have to also say that Gideon is thusly associated with Nephilim and Boaz is thusly associated with Nephilim and God is thusly associated with Nephilim and yet, that is not the form of association that Garris seems to imply—much like he was not implying David was biologically associated with Nephilim by referring to him as a gibbor.

Garris went on to elucidate:

There has been much discussion over Goliath’s height. The Hebrew text says he was six cubits and a span tall. A cubit was approximately 18 inches and a span nine inches, making Goliath 9 feet 9 inches tall. Many scholars prefer the reading of the Septuagint and an early Hebrew manuscript from Qumran (Dead Sea Scrolls), both of which say that Goliath was only four cubits and a span, or about 6’9”. In general, we should prefer the Hebrew Masoretic Text, unless we have good reason to go with alternate readings. There are problems with the MT textual tradition of 1-2 Samuel, so there may be a good reason to favor the alternate readings.[Garris’ endnote, “See Daniel J. Hays, “Reconsidering the Height of Goliath,” JETS 48.4 (2005), 702–715, who discusses the textual issues and argues for the shorter height.”]

However, thinking 9’9” is too tall for a giant is not a good reason to reject the Hebrew text. We already saw that Og of Bashan had a bed that was over 13 feet long, which cannot be explained well if he were under seven feet tall. This should at least make us open to the idea of Goliath being closer to 10 feet tall. The four cubit and a span reading (6’9”) would make Goliath’s height less impressive, nine inches shorter than the five cubit (7’6”) Egyptian man killed by Benaiah, one of David’s mighty men (gibborim) (1 Chronicles 11:23-24).

The shorter height is actually from the LXX, the Dead Sea Scrolls and also Flavius Josephus so that is the preponderance of the earliest data.

I am unsure why it is asserted that, “In general, we should prefer the Hebrew Masoretic Text.”

That, “9’9” is too tall for a” merely subjectively unusually tall person may be due to the tallest people on record were not that tall and suffered physical problems. As for, “Og of Bashan had a bed that was over 13 feet long, which cannot be explained well if he were under seven feet tall” well, we already covered this and there are other explanations for it such as that he was an ancient king living a lavish lifestyle. Also, if you compared the bed on which I sleep to my height, you could subtract about one foot from my bed and get my height just about correct. Yet, you would also, wrongly, calculate that I am circa five time wider than I actually am.

Now, the comment about the, verifiably, tallest person in the Bible at, “five cubit (7’6”) Egyptian man killed by Benaiah” is interesting because many will opt for the taller Masoretic range for Goliath due to the description of the equipment: as Garris puts it, “This armor weighed over 125 pounds, implying he was massive.”

Yet, he had a guy assisting with the equipment. Also, you can search for strongman or weightlifting competition vids and see guys who are around 6ft lifting 1,000 lbs. And, regular guy Benaiah took a spear like a weaver’s beam, just like Goliath’s, that Egyptian and successfully wielded it against him in hand-to-hand combat (2 Sam 23).

At this point, Zachary Garris does something rather odd when he goes on about that:

Everywhere the term קַשְׂקַשִּׂ֖ים (qasqasim) is used in the OT, it means “scales” (Leviticus 11:9-10, 12; Deuteronomy 14:9-10; Ezekiel 29:4). The ESV only makes one exception, as it translates the word as “coat of mail” here in 1 Samuel 17:5. Though this translation is understandable because chain mail would resemble scales, it obscures an important connection with the serpent (and possibly Dagon).

Scale armor ramps up the significance, as it connects Goliath with the serpent himself. Goliath was the seed of the serpent, and David was of the seed of the woman. Whether Goliath was the biological offspring of the serpent (through the Nephilim) or merely the spiritual offspring, there is a connection with Genesis 3:15. David killed Goliath with a stone to the head, and then he cut off Goliath’s head (1 Samuel 17:48-51). David, the seed of the woman, crushed the head of the seed of the serpent. Thus David’s defeat of Goliath is ultimately a picture of Christ conquering the devil.

The scale armor may also connect Goliath with the Philistine god Dagon, who was possibly a god of the sea. Goliath had cursed David “by his gods,” but in the end it was Goliath who was cursed (1 Samuel 17:43). Like his god Dagon, Goliath fell facedown and his head was cut off (1 Samuel 17:49-51; cf. 5:3-4). Israel’s first king, Saul, fought a serpent in his first battle against Nahash (Hebrew “serpent”), king of the Ammonites, and here David faced his own serpent. David passed the test by defeating the giant serpent and cutting off his head. David was better than Saul, the tall man who feared the Philistine giant (1 Samuel 17:11).

This is reminiscent of asserting that all things reptilian/snake/serpent are Satanic since it requires levels of abstraction to read, “the serpent (and possibly Dagon)…serpent himself…seed of the serpent…offspring of the serpent (through the Nephilim)…seed of the serpent…the Philistine god Dagon…a serpent…the giant serpent” into how a piece of equipment was put together.

The next subsection is titled, “David and His Men Finish Off the Giants (2 Samuel 21; 1 Chronicles 20)” and, of course, contains nothing about Nephilim and only some things about some people who on average were merely subjectively unusually tall, “killed four other giants…descendants of the giants…descendants of the giants…a man of great stature…descended from the giants…descended from the giants…these giants…the giant…the giant…giant.”

At this point, Garris puts a pin into the giants balloon by elucidating that those giants, “are described as Rapha (רָפָה), which the ESV translates as ‘giants’” which means that when all of those people were referred to as giants, in some English Bibles, nothing whatsoever was even being implied about their height at all but they were merely being identified as being of the Rephaim—who were on average were merely subjectively unusually tall (not that that has anything to do with anything).

Oddly, he goes on to write, “The description of Rapha is related to the word for Rephaim (רְפָאִ֛ים). This connection is made explicit in the use of the plural Rephaim (רְפָאִ֛ים)” well, sure: Rapha is a root word and is a singular word while Rephaim is a male plural word.

We next come to the, “Conclusion—Giants Today” wherein we get a reiteration of the damage that fallacious Nephilology does to theology proper with, “Nephilim in Genesis 6:4, who were wiped out by the flood. However, the Nephilim are linked with the later Anakim and Rephaim.”

He then notes, “the land of Canaan…giant Anakim…Anakim were part of the giant group known as the Rephaim…Moses defeated the giant Og…Joshua and Caleb…drove out the giant Anakim…Goliath” none of which has anything to do with Nephilim, not reliably anyhow since his only way to weave his tall-tale is to make Num 13:33 his premise.

Likewise, when he continues thusly, “giant Goliath…dreaded Anakim…considered Rephaim…if the Anakim were descended from the Nephilim (as Numbers 13:33 claims) and the Nephilim were the children of fallen angels and women (Genesis 6:4), then this would make Goliath the biological offspring of the serpent (Genesis 3:15)”—he merely asserts a correlation between Gen 3 and Gen 6—“Goliath’s connection to the Nephilim is strengthened by his description as a gibbor…Goliath wore serpent-like ‘scale armor’…seed of the serpent, the giant gibborim-Nephilim-Anakim-Rephaim warrior named Goliath” which combines solid and flaccid data points strung together illogically, ill-bio-logically, ill-theo-logically and ill-linguistically for that matter.

Overall, we saw an attempt at an all-encompassing narrative regarding certain factors in the biblical text and yet, there was too much vagary, stretches, missteps, and other pitfalls along the way.

Endnotes:

[1] Private communique, July 2019

[2] Heiser, https://www.moreunseenrealm.com/ch25

[3] https://truefreethinker.com/dead-kings-and-rephaim-the-patrons-of-the-ugaritic-dynasty

See my various books here.

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TJ Steadman on the fallen son of God-Angel-Watcher Azazel and the book of Enoch

Hereinafter is a consideration of claims made by TJ Steadman within his book Answers to Giant Questions.
You can find all of my articles regarding TJ Steadman here.

He wrote:

…the text of 1 Enoch 10:6-12 reveals that Azazel was held chiefly responsible for the corruption of the whole world and that all sin should be ascribed to him.
As his punishment, the angel Raphael was commanded to take Azazel, bind him and throw him in a pit (literally an opening) in the desert, burying him under sharp rocks, where he must await the final judgment in darkness.

Indeed, such is that is revealed in a pseudepigraphical text from millennia after the Torah was written and centuries after the Tanakh as a whole was written—and a text that contradicts the Bible so much that I wrote a whole chapter about that issue in my book In Consideration of the Book(s) of Enoch.

In any case, there are not biblical Angels named Azazel or Raphael.
Yet, there is a reason, to which we shall get, why Azazel is correlated to “a pit (literally an opening) in the desert.”

TJ Steadman further writes:

…now we can identify the language of salvation and judgment in the Flood narrative. And having delved into the story of Azazel, the chief proponent of the spread of depravity that led to the Flood, we will find an odd connection to the 150 days that the waters prevailed over the earth.
The Nephilim, who ravaged and destroyed the world, died during the initial 40-day period of rain, and their mortal bodies perished. Their spirits lived on, but they found no habitation.

If that sounds cryptic, it is so because it would require a lot of context, various lengthy quotations, to lay everything out. Thus, let us focus on my contextual focus.

The text of 1 Enoch aka Ethiopic Enoch is an amplification of the Genesis 6 affair, as I term it, which, among other details, rather than referring to the “sons of God” in general, mentions various of them by name—and calls them “Watchers” (which helps us date the text to the era of pseudepigrapha (roughly 300 BC to 300 AD with this one dating on the BC side of the scale since fragments of it were found among the Dead Sea Scrolls).

That Nephilim “spirits lived on, but they found no habitation” is a statement based also on the Enoch text as well as Jubilees which is another pseudepigraphical text, both of which claim that dead Nephilim became demons.

Granted, physical/material calamities do not cause the death of spirits but that does not mean that they become demons or, as TJ Steadman’s theo-sci-fi theory has it, that they possessed humans via Nimrod’s occult practices at the Tower of Babel and came to be called Rephaim who are Nephilim 2.0.

TJ Steadman also writes:

There were no living bodies to inhabit, and since God Himself had sealed up Noah’s ark, they could not gain access there (Revelation 3:7 “what He shuts, no one can open, and what He opens, no one can shut”).
They were forced to change from being the spirits of fleshly creatures into something else – disembodied spirits, detached from physical boundaries.
They became something different from what they had been previously – forced to adapt, they had regenerated into a new form, stripped of its former power. Again, this is supported by the text of 1 Enoch.

Sure, that is “supported by the text of 1 Enoch” but not by the Bible.
It is a simple fact that the Second Temple Era (516 BC-70 AD), particularly the era of the pseudepigrapha was an era of well, we know not what exactly. Were the texts produced during those times frauds, hoaxes, historical fiction, did the writers think they were real prophets (during the silent period between the testaments) or what?

What we do know is that it was an era of wildly vivid speculation, of texts that purported to expand upon points about which the Bible is brief, etc.

TJ Steadman also wrote:

The fallen angel Azazel was identified with a goat in the atonement ritual, upon which the sins of the people were cast. This goat was effectively cursed with the burden of sin.
The Jewish rabbis had a tradition that connected the curse of sin with the bearing of offspring (see God’s pronouncement in Genesis 3:14-16), and they believed that the curse had varying effects on different kinds of animals, in terms of how long each would endure pregnancy.
They mention that for an animal such as a goat (“small clean cattle” according to the rabbis), the gestation period for bearing offspring is 150 days, a fact that bears out in reality.

Now, let us take this slowly since “The fallen angel Azazel was identified with a goat in the atonement ritual, upon which the sins of the people were cast” is a very brief statement.

We may say that Azazel was thusly identified but not “The fallen angel Azazel.”

He is mixing pseudepigrapha and the tradition of “Jewish rabbis,” which is another hint at how late-dated this stuff about “The fallen angel Azazel” is—since there is no Rabbinate in the Torah nor Tanakh as a whole.

By the way, I quoted “Jewish rabbis” since that term is a pet-peeve of mine—which is actually a common term so I am not solely directing this at TJ Steadman—since “Jewish rabbis” as opposed to whom, Goyim (Gentile) rabbis?

In any case, I am unsure what the Azazel issue has to do with “the curse of sin with the bearing of offspring” of Gens 3:14-16 (wherein there is no “curse of sin with the bearing of offspring” but about Eve’s pain in childbirth).

Let us bottom line this and get to the “reason, to which we shall get, why Azazel is correlated to ‘a pit (literally an opening) in the desert.’”

My book What Does the Bible Say About Various Paranormal Entities? A Styled Paranormology contains a chapter titled “Is Azazel a Fallen Angel or a Goat?” so I will direct readers interested in the minutia to that book.
The bottom line is that Leviticus 16:8, 10 state, “Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat…But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.”

Did you notice all of the stuff about a fallen Angel? No? Well, “goats” is sa`iyr and “scapegoat” is `aza’zel.
They are both good ol’ goats, “two goats,” but one is meant to be taken “into the wilderness.”

Moreover (vss. 21-22, 26):

Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:
And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness…
And he that let go the goat for the scapegoat shall wash his clothes, and bathe his flesh in water, and afterward come into the camp.

Thus, the goat is not being take to be given to Azazel rather, azazel is the (scape) goat.

Besides, if a fallen Angel named Azazel is buried under rocks, where he must await the final judgment in darkness then he is not receiving a goat: as a sin offering nor for a BBQ.

It is fairly obvious to me that what happened is that the Bible states that which it does. Centuries nay, millennia later folklore told a tall tale about how a goat for (form some odd reason) given to a fallen Angel.

Yet, moreover, since azazel refers to the scapegoat then the folklore took that term and concept and invented a story about a fallen Angel actually names Azazel about whom, note carefully, we are told that “all sin should be ascribed to him” so that he is the scape-Watcher.

Such stuff is actually fairy simple to suss out. This is much like what I wrote in that same book about Lilith whom folklore has as Adam’s first wife who turned into a demoness who steals away human babies.

In the Bible lilith is a reference to an owl and I can see how such folklore would come about from observing an animal who hunts at night, which stealthily swoops down upon prey, and carries it away.

See my various books here.

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TJ Steadman on Rephaim as healers, Nephilim 2.0, and evil spirits who empower kings

Commencing a review of more of TJ Steadman’s views on Rephaim form his book Answers to Giant Question.

You can find all of my articles regarding TJ Steadman here.
Here are some of TJ Steadman’s claims about Rephaim in general, “The clans of the Rephaim are listed as: Rephaims, Emims, Horims, Zamzummims, Anakims, Horims, Avims and Caphtorims. All of these were Repahim. All were giants…the armies of the Rephaim, Zuzim, Emim, Horites, Amalekites and Amorites” I will note that it is quoted sic. due to listing Rephaims as being one of the “clans of the Rephaim” which is just circular and since he listed Horims twice in a simple error or repetition.

He notes that Rephaim were:

Those are people who became transformed by the powers of darkness into inhuman beings. They were normal people created in God’s image before that happened. What becomes of them?
The Rephaim chose to change themselves into the giants they became.
Therefore, the glorification they sought before men was the only “glory” they would ever receive. That fleeting aggrandizement would prove to fall far short of the eternal glory awaiting the children of God in their imputed righteousness.
Having deliberately deformed and defiled themselves, they can no longer bear the image of the holy God. They have cut themselves off from the line of Adam; they have removed themselves from the family of Noah; they have been scattered from Abraham’s people and have denied the throne of David. The Rephaim are unredeemable by virtue of having “disrobed” themselves of humanity.

Theologians tend to speak in terms of God’s perfect will vs. God’s permissive will. Thus, Nephilim were created “outside of God’s express will,” not His perfect will but His permissive will: which permits sin even whilst condemning it.

There is zero biblical evidence that Rephaim are what he claims they are. Biblically they are good ol’ fashioned human beings, some of whom were subjectively tall: such as the Anakim subgroup of Rephaim. For why he thinks what he wrote, see my article TJ Steadman on the rise and fall and rise of Nimrod aka Enmerkar, Giant, Nephil, Repha, Assyrian, Rahab, Leviathan.

In the part of his book I am quoting, he claim “Rephaim chose to change themselves into the giants” but in another part he claims, “Nimrod found a way to become a giant, a fate with which he had planned to infect all of humanity,” which is mere theo-sci-fi and that Nimrod exercised the “power to invoke the spirits of the dead Nephilim giants from the Flood, the Anuna-gods…They were the Rephaim” so where never human, and claims that Nimrod “brought the Rephaim into existence by summoning a power from the great deep.”
The last statement in the quote preaches good, as some say, but is a faulty conclusion based on a faulty premise.

TJ Steadman writes:

From Deuteronomy we know that the Anakims (sons of Anak) were Rephaim giants (along with the Emims, but more on that later), so we now see the descendants of Anak referred to as both Nephilim and Rephaim. How are the two names connected?
…the definition of Nephilim is best described as simply “Giants.” Rephaim does not only mean “Giants,” but there is a very strong allusion to the spirits of the dead (“spirits; shades; ghosts; the dead”). Literally, the Rephaim warriors were men who possessed the features and the living spirits of the dead Nephilim.
For this reason, the term Nephilim alone does not suffice to describe the post-Flood giants and is used only to make the connection apparent between them. This combination of Nephilim spirits in Anakim bodies produces a kind of duality common to all the diverse giant tribes.

The term “Rephaim giants” only causes confusion, especially since TJ Steadman uses the term “giants” to mean many things and leaves us to guess to what or whom he is referring at any given time. Biblically, “Rephaim giants” means “Rephaim Rephaim” and if he means “Rephaim of some generically unusual height” then no such thing is ever stated about Rephaim as a whole but only of certain Rephaim such as Anakim who are a Rephaim subgroup.

As for where we see Anakim being “referred to as both Nephilim and Rephaim” the reply is that they are not connected and the one and only time when Anakim are referred to as such is within Num 13:33 rebuked “evil report” which had it that, as the KJV has it, “there we saw the giants [Nephilim], the sons of Anak, which come of the giants [Nephilim]” which is a bit awkward. Some of the renderings seem to imply that “giants [Nephilim]” are “the sons of Anak” but then that Anakim “come of the giants [Nephilim]” which is circular. Thus, it is understood that the claim was that “we saw the giants [Nephilim]” and that “the sons of Anak, which come of the giants [Nephilim]” so that they are somehow related.

Yet, they are not related since Nephilim did not make it past the flood and Anakim come from the man name Anak.
Now, he referred to “Rephaim giants” and that “the definition of Nephilim is best described as simply ‘Giants’” which is incoherent since it begs the question: how could it be best described as simply “Giants” since we are not told what “Giants” means.

Moreover, “Giants” cannot be the “best described” definition of “Nephilim” since “Nephilim” does not mean nor imply “Giants” is any language.

I know, I know, some of you are yelling, “But, but, but Heiser!!!”

If from the Hebrew root naphal then Nephilim refers to fall, fallen, to cause to fall, etc.
When Nephilim is rendered to Greek in the Septuagint/LXX, the term gigantes is used which merely means “earth-born” (yet, the LXX also renders gibborim and also Rephaim as gigantes which only causes confusion).

I know, I know, some of you are yelling, “But, but, but Heiser!!!”

If from the Aramaic root naphiyla then well, Dr. Michael Heiser claims it means “giants” but the J. Edward Wright Endowed Professor of Judaic Studies states it (who is J. Edward Wright, Ph.D. himself, and who is the Director of the Arizona Center for Judaic Studies at the University of Arizona) “The term traditionally translated as ‘giants’ in both the Greek Septuagint (γιγαντες) and now in English is נפילים nephilim, a term based on the root נפל npl meaning ‘fall.’ It has nothing to do with size” and specifies that this goes for both Hebrew and Aramaic as “The root npl in Aramaic also means fall and not giants.”[1]

Now, this may just be a battle of the qualified academics, and I will leave the experts to it. Yet, note that Heiser telling us that it means “giants” only begs the question of what “giants” means. Since we have no reliable physical description of Nephilim then we cannot claim to know they were unusually tall nor to claim that we can know they were unusually tall based on the definition of a root word in Aramaic since then we commit the word-concept fallacy of claiming that we can determine the concept from the usage of a word.

Example, since I (at six ft. even in modern day North America) have been called a “giant” many times, including many times by my wife, then you must conclude that I am unusually tall but I am really not.

Heiser’s main problem is not that he is vague and comes up against Wright’s claims but that he thinks that Nephilim really were unusually tall based on simply picking up Num 13:33 uncritically and running with it.

Two more issues before moving on:
It is a fact that Heiser, rightly, claims that no one in the Bible, including “giants,” were taller than right around 8 ft so, so much for the theo-sci-fi-tall-tales of those pop-researchers who use and misuse his research. I would opt for no taller than 8 ft but even less would still be unusually tall to the average Israelite male who in those days was 5.0-5.3 ft. (so women were even shorter, on average).

In all of his papers, books, interviews, videos, etc. Heiser has consistently failed to interact with the narrative of Num 13—and since that is the second of only two Nephilim verses then that omission is a gigantic one.

In all he has produced he has merely devoted one paragraph size footnote on it and it is merely a generically dismissive assertion of a statement.

See my book The Scholarly Academic Nephilim and Giants wherein I feature Heiser as well as various articles on my site plus Review of Amy Richter and Michael Heiser on four Enochian Watcher related women in Jesus’ genealogy.

TJ Steadman claimed, “Rephaim does not only mean ‘Giants’” yet, does not only mean and actually does not mean that at all. Think about it, he has stated that “Nephilim” or naphal or naphiyla or npl means “giant” and also that Rephaim or repha/rapha or rph means “giant” and two very different words rarely mean the very same thing, au fond, etymologically.

What he does is to take the root word repha/rapha and apply its various meanings to one thing. That very complicated root refers to concepts are varied as healing and dead and is also used of a people group but that does not mean any and all definitions of a root need be or even can be applied to every and any usage.

Now, in our modern day it is very simple for anyone to look up the terms Nephilim and Rephaim in a biblical dictionary, encyclopedia, lexicographical, or various other resources and read that those words mean “giant.”
Yet, you must not leave it at that but see how those resources define “giant.”

And, then see how they treat Num 13:33’s “evil report” since they will most likely actually believe it and will then use that rebuked assertion to define Nephilim and Rephaim.
Thus, it is an unscholarly viciously circle—yet, as my book The Scholarly Academic Nephilim and Giants proves, a lot of scholars actually do just what Heiser does, they pick up a rebuked “evil report,” actually believe it, and run with it.

Thus, just because some of the dead are referred to by the term repha/rapha, that does not mean that the Rephaim people-group were shades/ghosts/spirits of the dead nor that they “possessed the features and the living spirits of the dead Nephilim” which is a biblically incoherent assertion.

Thus, it is not for these reasons that “the term Nephilim alone does not suffice to describe the post-Flood giants” but because there is zero biblical correlation between “the term Nephilim” and whatever he means by “post-Flood giants.”

Yet, you can surely see why he is making such statements: he wants to first claim that Nephilim did not survive the flood but that they live on in spirit for as demons (because he actually believes pseudopigraphical folklore from millennia after the Torah was written) and then also claim that Nephilim returned physically in the guise of Rephaim—whom Nimrod allegedly manufactured via occult means at the Tower of Babel—who are Nephilim 2.0. And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the very definition of an unbiblical theo-sci-fi-tall-tale.

Thus, he can affirm that only eight people and some animals survived the flood and/but that they did survive but only in spirit form (which of course they did since physical calamities do not affect spirits—which does not mean they became demons) and/but that they did return in physical form as Rephaim.

As for that a “combination of Nephilim spirits in Anakim bodies produces a kind of duality common to all the diverse giant tribes,” this is confused.

Firstly, he claimed that Rephaim are Nephilim 2.0 and then narrows that to that there are “Nephilim spirits in Anakim bodies” and Anakim are a Rephaim subgroup.

Yet, even since he actually believes the rebuked “evil report,” he can only get from it that the Anakim subgroup are related to Nephilim (not in the LXX, however) but not that all Rephaim are.

Such is why he must invent the theo-sci-fi tall tale about Nimrod’s occult powers to create Nephilim 2.0 which are conveniently no longer called Nephilim.

TJ Steadman further wrote:

It appears that the Rephaim came from the Amorites, since they were located within Amorite territory and have no evidence of lineage that shows any sign of external origins. Supporting this is the text of Genesis 15:16 “But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.”
This…paints a clear picture that what the Amorites were doing was that they were actually becoming the Rephaim.
As we know, Nimrod found a way to become a giant, a fate with which he had planned to infect all of humanity at Babel. That corruption was evidently passed on to the Amorites, who then began to give rise to the Rephaim, forming tribes of their own and taking possession of the Promised Land in advance of Abraham’s descendants.

Later in the book, he writes, “Rephaim – a mysterious group that have no lineage or historical origin to speak of in Scripture. The Rephaim seem to have just appeared out of the very ground.”

I am unsure how feasible it is to conclude or speculate that one people group came from another due to being from the same territory but let us go with it.

Now, interpreting this in accordance to TJ Steadman’s theo-sci-fi, “Rephaim came from the Amorites” and note that “the generations of the sons of Noah” include that he begat Ham and that “the sons of Ham” included Canaan and that “Canaan begat Sidon his firstborn, and Heth, and the Jebusite, and the Amorite” (see Gen 10).

Thus, Amorites did come from Cannan, himself actually, who came from Noah (and you can trace Noah’s genealogy back to Adam, of course).

So, how did Noah’s descendants become shades/ghosts/spirits of the dead, as TJ Steadman describes Rephaim? Well, they did not, of course, which is why be concocted an occult tale about Nimrod which must mean that Amorites were the unfortunate group that somehow ended up being pinpointed by Nimrod for transformation into Rephaim—the supposed demon-Nephilim spirit possessed ex-humans.

That is why he asserts “Amorites were…actually becoming the Rephaim.”

In stating, “Nimrod found a way to become a giant” we run into the problems of how he writes since we have to guess to what he is referring by “giant” and, in this case, it means a packaged deal: he thinks that Nimrod, by occult means, 1) became a “giant,” meaning became taller, 2) became a “giant,” meaning became a Repha, 3) became a “giant,” meaning becoming a Repha by being possessed by Nephilim spirits, and 4) became a “giant,” meaning became mighty.
Actually, 4 is the one and only thing the Bible, contextually, tells us about him is “Cush begat Nimrod: he began to be a mighty one in the earth. He was a mighty hunter before the LORD: wherefore it is said, Even as Nimrod the mighty hunter before the LORD.”

Now, since “mighty” is translating “gibbor” and Nephilim were referred to as “gibborim” then TJ Steadman thinks that there is a correlation but the only correlation is that they were both mighty: and the same term is used of Angels, of David’s soldiers, of Boaz, of God, etc.

Overall, sure, Amorites are one of the people groups that when about “forming tribes of their own and taking possession of the Promised Land in advance of Abraham’s descendants” but that has nothing to do with becoming occultically manufactured Nephilim 2.0 called Rephaim.

TJ Steadman further writes:

Rephaims: a tribal name for a race of giant men associated with the spirits of the dead pre-Flood Nephilim. The term appears only twice in the KJV, and both times it refers to specific tribes going by the name of Rephaims. As most other Bible versions do not use the double plural “Rephaims,” we will simply use “Rephaim” to refer to the giant tribes. Your version may have “Rephaim” or even “Rephaites.”

As we have seen, that definition of “Rephaims” is contrived, confused, and unsupported and equally so if we swap it for Rephaims.

He and I actually have a lot in common which is part of why I am writing articles of the sharpening iron with iron variety—yet, I have come to note that when we set out to sharpen iron with iron, someone tends to get cut.

For example, he refers to the term “Rephaims” as being a “double plural”—since the “im” ending is the Hebrew (male) plural and the “s” ending is the English plural—which he wrote in his 2020 book and in my 2019 book What Does the Bible Say About Giants and Nephilim? A Styled Giantology and Nephilology I wrote, “the KJV translates as a form of double plural.”

As far as I know, he did not know that I existed mid to late 2020 when our debate took place so it was just a case of common sense on both our parts.

Now, as for Rephaites/Rephaims as “the giant tribes,” biblically that only means Rephaim tribes with no implication of unusual height.

TJ Steadman noted:

Psalm 88:10 “Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee?”
The first use of “the dead” here is muwth as we have seen elsewhere, referring to the spirits of those who have died. But the second is rephaim, meaning “the departed spirits.” This is the same as the description in Job 26:5.
Now we can see something of the character of the dead people in question. According to this verse, the rhetorical line of questioning implies that they are in denial and they refuse to honor God.
These are therefore characterized as evil spirits, and they are associated with the dead. But how is it that they are referred to as “departed?”
For the Israelites, when a person died their spirit was believed to reside in Sheol, the realm of the dead, which was cosmologically linked with the earth in which the body was buried. The spirit then resided in the same place as the body.
However, a departed spirit is able to leave Sheol. This idea relates closely to that ascribed to the Ugaritic r’pum (Rephaim) who were believed to be able to rise from ‘arts (the earth as the dwelling place of the dead, similar to the way Hebrew Sheol is sometimes interchangeable with ‘erets) to dwell on the earth. Hence the rhetorical “shall the dead rise to praise thee?” The implication is that the spirit in question may rise, but it was never going to.

We should wonder if we should read such distinctions in to different words for what, after all, even in English we may call by various terms such as the dead, deceased, passed away, etc.

Yet, perhaps there is something to it.

Considering TJ Steadman’s views on Rephaim, let us narrow down the linguistic some more and then drill down to the Ugaritic context.

He rightly notes:

It is worth remembering that not every occurrence of the term ‘rapha’ indicates that we are looking at the spirits of the Nephilim, although connotatively there is an association…the term ‘rapha’ is used to connect them with the opposition to God and Israel that they wrought upon the earth when they live as Rephaim. However, the actual Rephaim spirits are not only present in the underworld but roam the earth disembodied.

Here are some of the repha/rapha roots (plural):
H7495 is used for healing and physicians (related to H7499 rephu’ah that is used for medicine).
H7496 is used for dead/deceased.
H7497 is used when referring to descendants of, valley of, or land of Rephaim.
H7498 is used of a particular person mentioned in 1 Chronicles 8 vss. 2 and 37.

In The Lexham Bible Dictionary, Heiser wrote, “The biblical Rephaim are never cast as ‘healers’ in context” and “some texts clearly suggest that the Rephaim are warrior kings.”
He also notes, “Isaiah 14:9 is particularly interesting in this respect, as it describes Sheol awaiting the repha’im, a term set in parallel to ‘the leaders (literally, ‘goats’) of the earth’ who were ‘kings of the nations.’”

So, Rephaim were not necessarily healers but I can tell you who is a repha healer, “I am the LORD that healeth thee” which reads YHVH Repha (Exodus 15:26).

In my article Dead Kings and Rephaim: The Patrons of the Ugaritic Dynasty, I quoted Baruch Levine and Jean-Michel de Tarragon’s Journal of the American Oriental Society article “Dead Kings and Rephaim: The Patrons of the Ugaritic Dynasty” wherein they note that within a text known as KTU 1.161—which is “The written record of the sacred celebration [in honor] of the Patrons”—“Rephaim, and departed, historic kings” are referenced separately thus, “the historic kings are not among the most ancient Rephaim.”

They conclude, “our text compels us to conclude that the Rephaim are long departed kings (and heroes) who dwell in the netherworld…the Rephaim of our text are royal ancestors…Kings and heroes do, ultimately, become Rephaim…the Rephaim and the recently departed kings.”
Thus, these two categories of dead are actually one in the same but at different stages.

Is this concept that to which the Psalm and Job were appealing? Perhaps, perhaps not. Yet, it is at least worth considering in terms of literary context and historical context.
In such a case, this would not be a case of “evil spirits…associated with the dead” but different stages of death—different lengths of time that they have been dead.

Back to TJ Steadman’s point about “evil spirits” who could “leave Sheol…able to rise…to dwell on the earth…the spirit in question may rise” so that “actual Rephaim spirits are not only present in the underworld but roam the earth disembodied” because they are actually Nephilim 2.0 spirits.

He additionally wrote:

Psalm 88 and its use of “rephaim” as “the spirits of the dead who dwell in the underworld.” But in the Greek…the use of “rephaim” as physicians or healers would indicate the idea that the LXX writers believed the dead could, in fact, be raised or brought back form the underworld:
Psalm 87:11 (NETS) “Surely, you shall not work wonders for the dead? Or will physicians rise up, and they acknowledge you?”…
Observe another use of Rephaim: Job 26:5 “Dead things are formed from under the waters, and the inhabitants thereof.” The LXX makes the connection even clearer, using the word “Giants” instead of “dead things.”

Now, the one and only biblical indication that any such thing could occur is 1 Samuel 28’s reference to the medium of Endor.

Therein, God has turned away from King Saul and Saul orders his servants “Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit,” one is found who lives in Endor.

“Saul disguised himself” and traveled to her, asking her to “divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up.” Yet, she replies, “Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die?”

He assures her “there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing.” Saul asks her to “bring up…Samuel” and “when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.”

Saul asks, “what sawest thou?” to which she replies, “I saw gods [Elohim] ascending out of the earth.”

Now, what was this all about? It is difficult to be certain since it is a unique event and does not provide many details not a commentary.

But let us begin with that it was indeed, a unique event. Does it mean that mediums could regularly do this or did she shout because it was just a parlor trick scam but this time it actually happened and it freaked her out?
Perhaps this was a unique event that God allowed in order to make a point.

Yet, perhaps she yelled because, apparently, Samuel said something about Saul calling him—since she yells and “Why hast thou deceived me?” and instantly knows, “thou art Saul.”
I would opt of the unique, God allowed, case only because it is indeed unique and we are told in texts such as many in Ecclesiastes that the dead know nothing, etc. within the context of what is going on upon the Earth, under the Sun.

I actually proposed a false dichotomy: it could also be that it was parlor trick scam but this time it actually happened and Samuel referenced Saul which freaked her out.

It seems to me that when mediums, by any other name such as channelers, etc., claim to be speaking to the spirits of people’s loved ones, they are actually speaking to demons who were around those families and so can related some accurate info sometimes—along with 99% of what the mediums/channelers do being a cold reading scam (made all the more easy with modern day tech such as people making their lives open books online).

TJ Steadman writes that a Ugarit] “‘the Rephaim Texts,’ contain rituals and incantations for summoning the spirts of the Rephaim” but just because Pagans claim the ability to do something, does not, of course, mean they were able to actually do it.

As for “The LXX makes the connection even clearer, using the word ‘Giants’ instead of ‘dead things.’” The exact opposite is the case, the LXX made things more confusing by rendering rapha in the Job text as “gigantes” (no, not “Giants,” of course). It is confusion, to personages such as TJ Steadman who suffer from that which I term gigorexia nervosa because the LXX also renders (no, not even translates) “Nephilim” as “gigantes” as well—and “gibborim” as “gigantes” as well—which is incoherent.

TJ Steadman wrote, “king Arad was guilty of divination by means of the Rephaim spirits” which is something I cannot seem to verify nor even find a vague reference.

In any case, continuing with TJ Steadman’s claims about Rephaim. He writes of “Rap`iu of Bashan (Canaanite Bathan) looks more like ‘the one who is joined of the serpent.’”
Rap`iu refers to Rephaim.

I would imagine that since Bashan actually means fruitful and refers to a district east of the Jordan known for its fertility, and that is not sexy enough for theo-sci-fi, he opts for an alternate rendering and/or transliteration in order to claim that it not only denotes serpent but that it refers to “the one who is joined of the serpent” all because tan, or than as he has to have it here, can refer to what which is variously termed dragon, sea/river monster, venomous snake/serpents, etc. in the form of the word tanniyn.

Yet, this is still all very myopic and selective since, for example, in Rabbinic Judaism the sage of the gemara (those who comment upon the Mishna) are called the Tannaim with the Aramaic teni referring to repeating and so is a term indicative of teaching or learning by repetition.

TJ Steadman writes that an event:

…recorded in the Cuthaean Legend is the creation of an army of strange hybrid creatures. These beings are described as partridge-bodied, raven-faced humans…they are known as the Umman-manda…This bears comparison to the Biblical Rephaim giants.

How “partridge-bodied, raven-faced humans…bears comparison to the Biblical Rephaim giants” is certainly as mysterious as it is incoherent and unfounded.
Even how “strange hybrid creatures…bears comparison to the Biblical Rephaim giants” is certainly as mysterious as it is incoherent and unfounded.

He also claims:

Isaiah 26 has much to say about the Rephaim. Firstly, the use in verses 13-14 refers to the Rephaim as lords (or, kings), which supports the idea that the ancient kings of the world were empowered by the Rephaim, like Nimrod, Og, Sihon, Amalek/Agag, Arba, Anak and many others.

Just because Rephaim, who ruled their own tribes and lands were “lords (or, kings)” has nothing whatsoever to do with that “ancient kings of the world were empowered by the Rephaim.” The former is biblically and historically verifiable, the latter is theo-sci-fi.

I do agree that ancient, and modern, kings (by any other name) were and are empowered but it is not by Rephaim spirits, see my article The Apocalypse of the Hidden Hand: The Bible’s teaching on the spiritual sovereign behind the human sovereign.

TJ Steadman writes:

As Lucifer’s humiliation continues in this passage [Isaiah 14:9-10], we see more allusions to the Nephilim, the mighty men of old, men of renown.

The Isaiah text states, “Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?”

Neither Nephilim nor the root naphal appear in those verses. He does go on to quote Isaiah 14:20-25 but Nephilim nor the root naphal also does not appear therein. If I had to guess, I would say that he read the root word rapha in v. 9 (dead) and (mis) interpreted as per his theo-sci-fi to mean Nephilim 2.0.

See my various books here.

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Perry Stone on the Mystery of Giants, Fallen Angels and Evil Spirits

Undergoing review is a four-part video by Perry Stone that is titled Mystery of Giants, Fallen Angels and Evil Spirits within the videos themselves.[1]

He seeks to elucidate, “how that fallen Angels came into the daughters of men and produced a race of giants and how upon the death of those giants they became the evil spirits that the New Testament talks about.”

We already have two issues:

1) The key questions are:

What’s the usage of the vague, generic, subjective, multi-usage and modern English word “giants” in English Bibles?

What’s your usage of the vague, generic, subjective, multi-usage and modern English word “giants”?

Do those two usages agree?

2) That demons are the spirits of dead giants is just folklore from centuries, if not millennia, after the Torah. For a biblical view, please see my article, Demons Ex Machina: What are Demons?

Perry Stone then seems to mash together millennia of time by stating:

In the beginning of time, we understand from reading this prophetic scripture and reading the words of the prophets, Ezekiel chapter 28 verse 14, that there was an anointed Cherubim and that anointed Cherubim was Satan. We know that in Ezekiel 28 verse 17 that this Angel, this great Angel fell because of pride and because of his beauty. We know according to Luke 10:18 that Lucifer, or Satan, was cast out of heaven.

We also know by Revelation chapter 12 verses 1 through 4 that when Satan fell from heaven he took one-third of the Angels of God with him: these are called the fallen Angels. So, we know by studying the Word of God that is an event which literally happened in biblical history.

He mashed together the English singular, “an” with the Hebrew male plural, “im” by referring to, “Cherubim” such that it should have accurately been, “an anointed Cherub…that Cherub.”

He also committed a category error since he correctly identified the Cherub but then switched to, “this Angel, this great Angel” be he is a Cherub, not an Angel.

There is a tricky bit here in that, generally, falling and being cast out are different things: the Cherub fell as per the Gen 3 timeline but Angles fell as per the Gen 6 timeline so it is inaccurate to assert, “when Satan fell from heaven he took one-third of the Angels of God with him”: being cast out is a post-Jesus ascension event for them both so that has apparently not happened yet.

Perry Stone then reckons, “if we go from the fall of Adam, in the Book of Genesis chapter 3, to the time of Noah in Genesis chapter 6, you have about sixteen hundred and fifty eight years or so that has passed.”

He then quotes Gen 6:1-4 thusly:

It came to pass when men began to multiply on the face of the earth and daughters were born unto them, that the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair and they took them wives of all which they chose.

And the Lord said my spirit shall not always strive with man for that he is also flesh yet his days shall be 120 years.

And there were giants in the earth in those days and also after that, when the sons of God came into the daughters of men and they bear the same and they bear them sons that the same were mighty men which were of old men of renown.

For the time being, he notes, “the phrase sons of God…refers to angels of God and we’ll elaborate on that a little bit later.” The original, traditional, and majority view among the earliest Jewish and Christians commentators, starting in BC days, was the Angel view as I proved in my book, On the Genesis 6 Affair’s Sons of God: Angels or Not? A Survey of Early Jewish and Christian Commentaries Including Notes on Giants and the Nephilim.[2]

He notes, “there were a race of giants in the earth in the Old Testament time”: well, but, “Old Testament time” spans millennia so we will have to see if he gets specific about to whom/what refers by, “giants” and what time span—especially when he follows that up with, “it took the sons of God coming into the daughters of men to produce this race of giants.”

He then claims, “the seed of the serpent, the seed of Satan were the giants: please keep that in mind the seed of the serpent, Genesis 3:15, were the race of giants…the Bible plainly teaches that in the Old Testament time these giants existed: very large men, a very huge stature, some 12-14 [ft. tall] some maybe even been 18 ft. tall.”
Well, I suppose the only way that the Gen 6, “giant” could be, “seed of the serpent, the seed of Satan” is purely symbolic since he, being a Cherub, was not physically involved in the Gen 6 affair (as I term it), so he had no actual physical seed of his own.

At this point, his claim that the Gen 6, “giants” were, “very large…very huge…12-14 [ft. tall]…18 ft. tall” is a mere assertion—and it always will be since the Bible does not say a single word about such heights for anyone, ever.
He then jumps from Gen to, “Numbers chapter 13 verse 33, I’m going to give you seven references, there’s actually more than this in the Old Testament, seven references that speaks of giants”: before moving on, recall that he has not told us to what or whom he was referring yet, we got the idea that he thinks it meaning something vaguely generic about subjectively unusual height. Thus, the answer to key question three is, “No” since that has nothing to do with the English Bible’s usage. And that is because, it merely renders (does not even translate) Nephilim in 2 verses or Repha/im in 98% of all others and so never even hints at anything to do with any sort of height whatsoever.

He continues thusly:

…in the promised land back in the time of Moses, here’s what it says, Numbers 13, “and there we saw the Giants, the sons of Anak which were of the Giants, and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers and so we were in their sight.

Deuteronomy chapter 2, “the Emims dwell therein in pass, a people great and many and tall as the Anakims and also were accounted giants as the Anakim, but the Moabites call them Emims.

Deuteronomy chapter 2, “that is also accounted a land of giants, giants dwelt therein in old time and the Ammonites call them Zamzummim, a people great…”

Deuteronomy chapter 3 says, “for only Og king of Bashan remaineth of the remnant of the giants. Behold his bedstead was a bedstead of iron, is it not in Rabbah of the children of Ammon? Nine cubits was the length thereof and four cubits the breadth thereof, after the cubit of a man…”

Bed may have been eighteen feet long…

Deuteronomy chapter three, “and the rest of Gilead and all Bashan being the kingdom of Og and this is that great giant king that existed in the Old Testament time…Bashan which was called the land of the giants.

So, in Moses’ time, the land of Bashan was called the land of the giants because there were so many giants…

Joshua chapter 12, “Og king of Bashan which was of the remnant of the giants…”

Joshua chapter 15, “…the Valley of Hinnom westward, which is at the end of the valley of the giants…”

So, folks, if we go to the Old Testament…we discover that this these giants were literally all over the promised land…

Now, ponder how impressive that might sound to his in-church audience due to the way he speaks to them genetically and prepped them to accept his vagary versus how I have prepped you to hear what he just said.

Let us review:

It is stunning that he appeals to a chapter and verse in Num but does not bother mentioning at least two key issues:

1) he was exclusively appealing to an, “evil report” by 10 unreliable guys whom God rebuked.

2) he was only appealing to non-LXX versions on that verse sine the LXX lacks a mention on Anakim in that verse.

Now, that was about Nephilim and such is where he got the mistaken notion what they were, “very large…very huge” but since that is an unreliable report by unreliable guys then we have no reliable physical description of Nephilim—which means that their height a non-issue and which means that 100% of pop-Nephilology is debunked.

He also did not bother telling his audience that the rest of the texts were about Rephaim, not about Nephilim: Nephilim were strictly pre-flood hybrids, Rephaim were strictly post-flood humans, and there’s zero correlation between them.

Deut 2 merely told us that Rephaim were generally and generically, “tall” and that is just as vague, generic, subjective, and multi-usage as the term, “giants.” Moreover, that is subjective to the average Israelite male who was 5.0-5.3 ft. in those days.

So, Rephaim were a.k.a. Zamzummim and Emim and Anakim were like clans of that tribe.

As for Og well, he was a Repha and we have no physical description of him. Moreover, to merely assume we can calculate his height base on his bed is based on numerous mere assumptions: in fact, indications are that it was a ritual object, not something on which he slept—see my book The King, Og of Bashan, is Dead: The Man, the Myth, the Legend—of a Nephilim Giant?

It seems that Perry Stone merely imagined to what the word giant referred, then chased that English word and his imagination about it around a Hebrew Bible, watered it all down, and mashed together the texts in which it appears, regardless of context. He just took texts out of context to make pretexts for prooftexts.

Let us re-read the key portion on those texts for what they actually say, “the Emims…great and many and” generically and subjectively, “tall as the Anakims and also were accounted” Rephaim, “accounted a land of” Rephaim, “only Og king of Bashan remaineth of the remnant of the” Rephaim, “Bashan which was called the land of the” Rephaim, “land of the” Rephaim, “valley of the” Rephaim.”

So, folks, if we go to the Old Testament what we actually discover that this these generally, generically, subjectively tall Rephaim were literally all over the promised land so, what of it? It is apparently not exciting enough for some to actually read what those texts actually say.

And they are not even exciting enough when Perry Stone tall-tales them since he went on to invent, “I’ve often preached this: that the giants in the Old Testament time actually possessed the gates of the Holy Land, they possessed the gates of Israel, all the entrances into the Promised Land. There was a race of giants that were there.”

Interestingly, he goes on to state, “valley of Rephaim or the valley of giants” so he could have taught accurately but appears to have chosen to be vague.

But, if that was not exciting enough, “they were the seed of a serpent and what they were used for was to try to control the gates leading into the Promised Land and also to try to hinder God’s people we know that the children of Israel would not even possess the Promised Land” for which there is double-zero indication.

He then again relies on being vague—or, I am assuming that since he appears to know better but perhaps he is just not well enough studied on these issues to speak consistently accurately on them—in asserting, “the Bible says they saw the sons of Anak there, this was a giant and they were very fearful at their size and they said we look like grasshoppers to these guys they’re so large, they’re so huge…”

Re-write, “the Bible says” that within an, “evil report” that, “they” 10 unreliable guys merely asserted that they, “saw the sons of Anak” who were related to Nephilim (which is impossible) only when reading non-LXX versions, “there, this was a giant” of a tall-tale, “and they” merely asserted, “very fearful at their size and they said we look like grasshoppers to these guys they’re so large, they’re so huge…” and God rebuked them, to death.

Since he is being generic, he then jumps back in time a few centuries to Gen 6, “the promised land…literally the seed of a serpent, or the giants, hindered people all the way back in the time of before the flood of Noah…a result of the fallen Angels and the giants that existed back in that time prior to the flood, and there were giants in the earth according to Genesis chapter 6 both before the flood and after the flood.”

Now, that “according to Genesis chapter 6 both before the flood and after the flood” is one of them most beloved imagination-based fantasies amongst pop-Nephilologists. Not only is it not the case that Gen 6 states any such thing, that would imply that God failed, that He missed a loophole, that the flood was much of a waste, etc., etc., etc.

The flood is not even mentioned for the very first time until a full 13 verses later—so it is cheating to read ahead and then loop back to assert that a verse that states nothing of it states something of it.

The only post-flood reference to Nephilim is from one single sentence and that is from the evil report.

God did not fail, He didn’t miss a loophole, the flood wasn’t much of a waste, etc.

Gen 6:4 states, “Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown.”

The question becomes: when were those days?

Well, Gen 6:1 told us, “When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them, the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose.”

The next question becomes: when was afterward?

Since it was after those days then it was simply after, “When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them…”

Thus, the began doing it then and they continued to do it but that’s all pre-flood.

As he had stated before, he now reiterates, “those giants came into existence through fallen Angels having intercourse with the daughters of men” but that is a category error since, again, that is only true of Nephilim and they did not make it past the flood in any way, shape, or form. It is not true of Rephaim—by any other name. Yet, he got his audience thinking in terms of giants, giants, giants, which equals tall and offspring of Angles and humans which is multitudinously fallacious.

Perry Stone then notes, “Josephus in book 5 chapter 2 tells you that there was a race of giants whose countenances were so large and their bodies were so large and their, their voices, his implication is when they would speak it would even hurt your ears” yet, he did not bother telling us of whom Josephus spoke nor how he, who lived millennia after the Torah, knows such info (besides relying on folklore). He did not mention that Josephus was not an anatomist so would not know if those bones were dinosaur, whale, pachyderm, etc.

He then goes back to the assertion, “early in the book of Genesis and Abraham’s time these giants surrounded the promised land, in Genesis chapter 14. This is the time of Abraham, verse 5, it mentions a king that smote the Rephaim” which means that it is irrelevant to Nephilology, by definition, and it is another category error.

He even stated, “Rephaim is a Hebrew word for giants” but that’s tantamount to saying that it is a Hebrew word for ______________ (blank) since giants is a flaccid designator, a usus loquendi, so that it is meaningless without context. So, when he says, “literally giants” that literally means nothing.

He then falls into the non sequitur of merely assuming and asserting that large things must have been built for and by large people, “ruins of gigantic proportions…the suggestion here is that it would take a race of very large men.”

He then notes, “there’s a real interesting story connecting the fallen Angels to Mount Hermon” well, sure, the, “story” in 1 Enoch which is Bible contradicting folklore from centuries, if not millennia, after the Torah (see my book, In Consideration of the Book(s) of Enoch). And it is likely that the author(s) of 1 Enoch chose that mount since during the time of the writing of that text it was revered by Pagans.

Perry Stone goes on to note, “Goliath was six cubits and a span in height” and since the normative (high) estimation of his height as per a standard 18 inch cubit was not exciting enough, he takes it up a few more notches, “Now, if a cubit was 25 inches this is amazing, and a span is about 10 inches then that means that

Goliath was 13 foot 4 inches tall. Now, some estimate 11 feet, some say 12 feet, some say 13 feet: probably at the most he’s 13 feet tall according to the Dake’s Bible, the Dake’s Annotated Bible page 310.”

I was not aware that we were to go by thus saith Dake’s but the fact is Perry neglected to mention some very important things to his audience: the Masoretic text has him at just shy of 10 ft. Yet, the earlier LXX and the earlier Dead Sea Scrolls and the earlier Flavius Josephus all have him at just shy of 7 ft. (compared to the average Israelite male who was, you may recall, 5.0-5.3 ft. in those days) so that’s the preponderance of the earliest data.

But he went on to ague, “Goliath in 1st Samuel chapter 17, Goliath’s armor, listen to this, was 294 pounds total…his spear head alone weighed 23 pounds and the shield bearer, he had a shield bear, in other words he didn’t carry his own shield, he had somebody carrying a shield before him,” etc.

Indeed, he had a guy assisting with the equipment. Stone neglects to tell his audience that regular guy Benaiah took a spear like a weaver’s beam, just like Goliath’s, from a 7.5 ft. Egyptian and successfully wielded it against him in hand-to-hand combat (2 Sam 23). Also, you can search for strongman or weightlifting competition vids and see guys who are around 6 ft. lifting 1,000 lbs.

Yet, Perry Stone even focuses on that, “if anything gives a picture of what of how big Goliath really was…the spear was always bigger than the man, if Goliath was 13 feet tall,” etc. so: plump up his height even above the normative higher range, then you can plump up his spear, then you can neglect what I just noted about Benaiah, and you got yourself a tall-tale that is even more exiting that usual.

Speaking of pluming up a notch or more: he stated, “the average Jew is 5 foot 10 inches tall” but that is adding 7 inches to the higher end of the range. Yet, I wonder is by the qualifying present tense, “is” he literally means now-a-days rather than within the context of millennia ago.

He actually speaks for a long time about megalithic sites, the many cultures that have tall-tales about, “giants,” etc., etc., etc. all of which is irrelevant.

He then loops back to King Og and back to thus saith, “Dake’s notes”: at least this time, he stated, “depends on if a cubit is 18 inches or 25 inches.”

Then, he speak for a long time about flood records from ancient cultures around the world. While the flood is relevant to Nephilology since it gives us a time after which they never again existed, the scope of the flood is irrelevant to Nephilology since they either did not make it past the flood because it was global or because they lived in the flooded region: either way, they did not make it past the flood in any way, shape, or form.

At this point, Perry Stone merely asserts, “in Genesis chapter 6, 1 through 4, ‘there were giants on the earth before the flood of Noah and after the flood of Noah.” He cited it but could not quote it because it states no such thing: it does not say a single word about the flood and, as already noted, the flood is not even mentioned for the very first time until a full 13 verses later.

He then argues against the Sethite view. That refers to a late-comer of a view based on myth, prejudice, and which only creates more problems than it solves (so, more than zero)—which claims that the Gen 6, “sons of God” were, get this, an entire lineage of descendants of Seth who were so utterly holy, righteous, and devoted to God that they were not holy, righteous, and devoted to God since they were such terrible sinners that their sin served as the premise for the flood—go figure—and that the, “daughters of men” were an entire lineage of un-holy, un-righteous, and un-devoted to God descendants of Cain.

Apparently, there were not enough attractive female Sethies for the Sethite males nor enough attractive male Cainites for the Cainite females.

Perry Stone then asserts, “the third of the angels in Revelation 12 that fell with Satan that were cast out to the earth are different from the Angels we’re talking about” within the Gen 6 affair’s context, “because those angels that fell with Satan became the principalities the powers the rulers of the darkness of this world the wicked spirits in heavenly places.”

I have no idea whence he got such very specific ideas. Biblically, there is only a one-time fall/sin of Angels and the Gen 6 affair was it. One of the issues is that, “fell with Satan” is mashing together two categorically and chronologically differing events. Again, Satan, the Cherub, fell as per the Gen 3 timeline but Angles fell as per the Gen 6 timeline and it would seem that it is their demon/spirits who became principalities, powers, etc.

So, via the fact-free assertion of an early fall of Satan and Angels, Stone has to then make up a story about, “there’s a group of fallen Angels that remain with Satan but there’s a group of fallen Angels that came down before the flood of Noah and after the flood of Noah”—and so, he also invented a story about a post-flood coming to Earth of fallen Angels for which, of course, there is zero indication and which also implies that God failed, that He missed a loophole Stone figured out, that the flood was much of a waste, etc., etc., etc.

His assertion is, “before the flood they simply came down to teach men righteousness and, of course, at the time of the flood God took them. So, another group of, now this is in [Rabbinic] Jewish history: we can assume that they have some knowledge of this handed down by tradition, 200 of them came down on Mount

Hermon…” So, by, “Jewish history” he is referring to the folklore in 1 Enoch. Yet, not even that folklore has a post-flood fall on Angels to Earth nor physical post-flood Nephilim.

Perry Stone also asserts, “we don’t know exactly when they were taken off of the Earth and so therefore, what happened was the race of giants was totally annihilated and totally destroyed in the time of David” for which there is zero indication for either of those mere assertions (since contextually, by giants he is referring to Nephilim).

Now, I am not much of an eschatologist at all but I can note something about his statement, “the fallen Angels that we’re talking about here that are bound in chains of darkness are not necessarily those that fell with Satan, Revelation 12, those that fell with Satan are called, ‘Satan and his Angels,’ and they are active during the tribulation period, these that are bound in Tartarus, are bound unto the judgment of the great day or, to the day of judgment, and those that are bound in Tartarus at this present point are those who came into the daughters of men and produced the race of giants.”

Again, the assertion that they, “fell with” is inaccurate and it all seems to breakdown thusly: Satan fell, he then cast them so they fell, they mated with humans, they were incarcerated, they will be released (Rev 9), they will wreak havoc on Earth, they will fight and lose a war in heaven, they will be cast down, they will be judged.

Perry Stone then makes a series of mere assertions by inserting an un-biblical man-made tradition into what he is reading in God’s Word by first asking, “How can Angels take upon themselves the form of men and how can they have physical relations with the daughters of men…can Angels take upon themselves different forms?” and following with, “The answer is: yes. Psalms 104, ‘for Angels are spirit’…Hebrews 1:14, ‘Angels are ministering spirits’…Hebrews chapter 13 verse 2 it says, ‘be not forgetful to entertain strangers for we’re by some have entertained Angels unaware’ because an Angel is a spirit being, it has the capability of taking on itself a form.”

Now, ask yourself if, “has the capability of taking on itself a form” was even implied in those texts or whether, perhaps, Stone is missing a key data point? Nowhere in the whole entire Bible does it even hint at that Angels have the capability of taking on a form.

Two main issues with which to deal:

1) He merely reads on single modern English word, “spirits,” then reads about their physical appearance, and then make up a story about how to mash the two together. Yet, this is a simple case of reading one single mistranslated English word.

The reason that circa 44 English versions[3] rightly have, “winds” in that Psalm rather than, “spirits” is not because the translator flipped a coin but is because the Hebrew ruach can be translated as either spirit(s) or wind/breath and the Psalm’s entire context consist of correlations to natural phenomena so it demands a translation of winds rather than spirits.

The Hebrews text is quoting and then playing off of the Psalm so it took, in order to be consistent, must translate as winds—and the Greek pneuma can also be translated as either spirit(s) or wind/breath.

Note also that merely reading spirits and concluding an ontologically disembodied entity is committing a word-concept fallacy.

2) Merely reading spirits and concluding an ontologically disembodied entity also means disregarding that Angels are always described as looking like human males, performing physical actions, and without indication that such isn’t their ontology (see my book, What Does the Bible Say About Angels? A Styled Angelology).

This refers to their actual description, and not just one word.

So, again, what Perry did is to read one word and read descriptions and insert an un-biblical concept between them rather than concluding that such is just how they look, ontologically, and that reading one single mis-translated word does not change the facts.

So, when he does on to stated the following, note that the missing data point is still missing and he is just reading into the texts (classic eisegesis), “we also know from Hebrews 13 that they can actually take upon

themselves the form of human beings……there were Angels that came into Abraham’s tent in Genesis chapter 18 and the men thought these were Angels, these Angels were actually men and they looked like men, they didn’t look like Angels with glowing in, white with wings, they look like men.”

I suppose that we could say that Angels can be, “glowing” when exhibiting their un-fallen bodies (and not disguising themselves are regular humans) but there is zero indication that Angels have wings. Besides, he first asserts that their disembodied spirits but then presumes to tell us how to, “look like Angels” means glowing, being white (or glowing white?) and having winds but the entire point of being sprits, proper, would be that they have no from by definition.

Likewise with, “Jacob wrestled a man…it was an Angel…Old Testament time, these Angels of God were taking on the appearances of men” and then we are back to, “in the Dake’s Bible” and he goes on and on and on and back to Psalm 104, and on and on.

He eventually ends up in, “Zechariah chapter 5…women and yet they have wings” yet, “they’re not called Angels” since they are not Angels: those winged women were exclusively part of a wholly symbolic visionary experience which included, “a flying scroll” symbolizing a, “curse” and a, “basket” symbolizing, “iniquity” and, “a woman” symbolizing, “Wickedness” and, “two women…They had wings like the wings of a stork” symbolic of motion towards, “land of Shinar,” etc.

Perry Stone then comes to, “the bottom line as to why Satan tried to corrupt mankind by bringing in a race of giants are you ready for this? I believe the giants were the seed of the serpent mentioned in Genesis chapter 3 verse 15 their purpose was to prevent the coming of the Messiah by corrupting man’s lineage and making it impossible for the Messiah to be born.”

Let us apply some logic to Stone’s ill-logic and ill-biologic: “Satan tried to corrupt mankind by bringing in a race of” Nephilim so God sent the flood to be rid of them but God failed since there were post-flood Nephilim so the danger of the Messiah not being born remained—and God had to rely on humans to get the job done for Him which He couldn’t manage by Himself.

As for, “the seed of the serpent” well, as I elucidated at great length in my five volume set of books Cain As Serpent Seed of Satan: that seed denotes those who commit ungodly actions—so the great news is that they can repent. Some assert that since Eve’s seed is biologically physical then so must Satan’s but even if we call Nephilim his seed, by extension, then there is not indication he had any physical involvement in the Gen 6 affair but only acted as a styled push in the wrong direction for Angels since he, “cast them to the earth” (Rev 12).

It seems that his lecture series could have been condensed to one single session since he tends to go in circles by touching upon a subject and returning to it time and again—and again, as we have already seen. Thus, he goes back to Goliath and to, “unclean spirits.”

He goes on to assert, “fallen Angels came down on top of Mount Hermon” which he’s importing into the Bible from 1 Enoch.

He notes, “in the Old Testament…we find a word Rephaim now, rapha is a common word for giant” which begs the question as to what giant means and is also inaccurate since that root word ranges in meaning from healing to death but not what Stone thinks is meant by giants: and if you look up a source that says that then you need to ask the right questions such as: why is that being asserted and what is being meant by giants—which is what I did in my book Bible Encyclopedias and Dictionaries on Angels, Demons, Nephilim, and Giants: From 1851 to 2010.

He goes on to touch upon some of this by noting, “in the Hebrew Bible is found where our English Bible uses the word dead…Rephaim is a name of one of the giants” which is telling us that merely one of the usages is something vague about subjectively unusual height—and we are back to how useless that term giants is since he really should have stated, “Rephaim is a name of one of the Rephaim” but being that accurate would expose that he is going in redundant circles.

Therefrom, he merely reads any instance of the root rapha as a reference to the 100% human people group, the Rephaim. This is a typical pop-researcher’s move which results in wild tall-tales about Rephaim being some sort of walking dead giants.

We will conclude at this point since he just goes in ever tighter circles about Goliath and, “race of giants” and, “seed of Satan, the natural seed being the giants, the supernatural seed being the evil spirit…fallen Angels but there’s another group of fallen Angels that took upon themselves flesh…giants died their offspring becomes the evil spirits this is I call this the trail of a serpent, I call this the seed of a serpent,” etc., etc., etc.

Thus, overall, we see how an engaging teacher who talks fast and fast-talks can sound very impressive but under inspection, is teaching a lot of un-biblical assertions.

Notes:

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjaTmWbjs2M

[2] https://www.amazon.com/stores/author/B071NW4F4W/allbooks

[3] https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Psalm%20104%3A4

See my various books here.

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L.A. Marzulli on Nephilim in Sodom and Gomorrah

On Facebook/Meta, L.A. Marzulli posted a video which serves as a perfect example of the astonishing power that pop-Nephilologists have over their un-discerning fans.

A certain Alice McComas commented

WOW! I didn’t know that there were Nephilim in Sodom and Gomorrah. That’s a new one on me. Yes, it’s all about the seed war. I learn from you whenever I find you. (Skywatch, Prophecy Watchers, etc.)

Keep up the good work, L.A. . . . and thank you.

I, True Freethinker, replied

Alice McComas You didn’t know that there were Nephilim in Sodom and Gomorrah because there weren’t: LA sells un-biblical tall-tales to Christians for a living.

Alice McComas

L.A. Marzulli has been studying giants for a long, long time. I think he would know, and I don’t think he would lie.

True Freethinker

For me it’s very simple: LA claimed that there were Nephilim in Sodom and Gomorrah can you verify that there were or ask him whence he got that idea, please?

Alice McComas

Dear True, it’s not all that important to me. If you want to know where he got his info, contact him yourself, okay?

True Freethinker

I know where he got it: he just made it up. Now, rather than being a Berean and double checking his assertions, you merely accepted them, “WOW! I didn’t know that there were Nephilim in Sodom and Gomorrah. That’s a new one on me…I learn from you whenever I find you. . . and thank you.” And after posting on the WORLD WIDE web about and and being asked about it, you ungracefully dismiss me with a, “it’s not all that important to me.”

Alice McComas

That’s because it’s NOT that important to me, and neither is what you believe or think. I’m just trying to mind my own business and live in peace. I’m done. Bye.

True Freethinker

But you’re the one posting on the WORLD WIDE web so if you don’t want people all over the planet reading what you say about something about which you’re not interested and then chancing they might reply to do then a best practice is to not post on the WORLD WIDE web–especially not to support un-biblical tall-tales.

Alice McComas

I wasn’t going to ever reply to you again, as I assumed you were going to keep up your argument. But I’ve changed my mind. I’m just going to tell you this. I don’t comment on Facebook to get into arguments with anyone. I refuse to. I don’t care how much you want me to argue with you about a fact or not, I’m not going to do it. So please take your argument or debate somewhere else or don’t do it at all to anyone. Leave me out of it. I hate it when people want to argue and debate. I come on here to socialize or to learn, and that’s all. Goodbye, please!!!

True Freethinker

Well, if there’s one thing I have learned is that when we seek to sharpen iron with iron, someone tends to get cut. You asserted, I requested your backing, you realized you don’t have any, you got angry.

Shalom!

Alice McComas

Guess what? I’m going to let you have the last word. I don’t like people that argue I think they’re Superior. I’ll just let you go on thinking that. Bye.

Alice McComas followed up by posting again

Changed my mind. I was just trying to remember what started all of your crap. It was all because I was believing what L.A. Marzulli said about Nephalim.

Good grief!!!! Some people just want to argue over anything and everything! You are one of those. I am so done with you, so done. Go ahead and have the last word come I’m fine with that. Done.

True Freethinker

Why do you think that people that argue (as you do) are superior?

Indeed, LA sells the un-biblical tall-tale that Nephilim were very, very tall and lived post-flood but those aren’t biblical teachings—and that’s just naming two of his made up stories.

Shalom!

Alice McComas

People, if True Thinker texts [we weren’t texting, we were on the vid’s comments section] you, don’t answer him. He’ll just keep going on and on arguing with you . . . else on here, but you just won’t leave me alone. Other people should be warned.

True Freethinker

My experience is that encouraging people to rely on censorship based on a poisoning the well fallacy doesn’t work. A best practice is to, instead, familiarize yourself with the issues about which you’re posting on the WORLD WIDE web and also don’t believe someone who says that something that’s not in the Bible is true just because they say so.

Alice McComas

Dear True, it’s so funny that you’re accusing me of arguing when you are the one who started the whole thing. And then you kept it up when I wanted to stop. You are an extreme case of the pot calling the kettle black. You are hypocrite.

I will disagree with you on one thing though, and one thing only. The Bible says that they were Giants before the flood and after. After wondering in the wilderness for 40 years, under Joshua’s leadership, Israel went into the promised Land and had to fight Giants. A good example was David fighting Goliath. (Nephilim are the spirits of dead Giants.). Are you going to say that’s not true too? I am so tired of you. So much more than tired. Please leave me alone from now on.

There’s nothing I can do to help you. I don’t think anybody can. And I know you can’t help me, so don’t even try. Let there be an end of this. It’s sickening.

True Freethinker

FYI: when you just write “Dear True” there’s no way to FB to know that they need to notify me of the comment: I just happened to notice it. So, maybe stop posing comments to me in three subthreads and maintain one line of communication.

As for “you’re accusing me of arguing” actually, you brought up arguing, I merely asked, “Why do you think that people that argue (as you do) are superior?” and you’re also projecting, contradicting and being hypocritical since you’ve been arguing all along: it’s just that I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that—and never did Paul when he confronted Peter.

Actually, “you are the one who started the whole thing” when you merely took the word of it from LA about something that’s not only not biblically told to us: it’s actually impossible. So, why do you believe him?

As for, “kept it up when I wanted to stop”: you could have and still can stop any time so it’s really you who kept it up.

Now you say, “The Bible says that they were Giants before the flood and after” but please quote and cite where it says that since I’m unaware of any version in any langue that states any such thing.

But first, keep in mind that, just like LA, you’re using the vague, generic, subjective, multi-usage and modern English word “giants” without defining it. So, the key questions are:

What’s the usage of the vague, generic, subjective, multi-usage and modern English word “giants” in English Bibles?
What’s your usage of the vague, generic, subjective, multi-usage and modern English word “giants”?
Do those two usages agree?

Now, when you refer to “Giants before the flood” you’re referring to Nephilim but when you’re referring to “Giants…after” you’re referring to Rephaim—with the single exception of one single sentence from an “evil report” by unreliable guys whom God rebuked who just made up a tall-tale (one sentence upon which LA builds his entire Nephilology, his entire “ministry”) so that proves that LA was wrong and you shouldn’t believe him.

See, those key questions are key since without those answers I can’t know what you mean by, “Joshua’s leadership, Israel went into the promised Land and had to fight Giants.”

But when you example Goliath: he was a Repha.

When you assert, “Nephilim are the spirits of dead Giants” I really can’t understand unless you define your terms especially since, again, pre-flood “Giants” were Nephilim.

So, rather than letting your emotions bother you so much when confronted with issues that you brought up but can’t handle discussing, either ignore LA and do your own homework or don’t reply anymore since you’re ruining your witness more and more each time you reply in an ungraceful and worldly manner.

And remember that you are the one who started two new subthreads to take pop-shots at me even while claiming you’re done.

Well, I assume it’s easier to listen to a vid by LA and figure that if thus saith LA then I believe it and, by golly, that settles it—even if there’s no other indication in all of human history that what he merely asserted is a fact. 

See my various books here—this includes the one in which I featured LA, Nephilim and Giants as per Pop-Researchers: A Comprehensive Consideration of the claims of I.D.E. Thomas, Chuck Missler, Dante Fortson, Derek Gilbert, Brian Godawa, Patrick Heron, Thomas Horn, Ken Johnson, L.A. Marzulli, Josh Peck, CK Quarterman, Steve Quayle, Rob Skiba, Gary Wayne, Jim Wilhelmsen, et al.

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A plea: I have to pay for server usage and have made all content on this website free and always will. I support my family on one income and do research, writing, videos, etc. as a hobby.

If you can even spare $1.00 as a donation, please do so: it may not seem like much but if each person reading this would do so, even every now and then, it would add up and really, really help out.

Here is my donate/paypal page.

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TJ Steadman on the rise and fall and rise of Nimrod aka Enmerkar, Giant, Nephil, Repha, Assyrian, Rahab, Leviathan

You can find all of my articles regarding TJ Steadman here.

When it comes to Nirmod, TJ Steadman commits the same error as most, if not all, of the people I featured in my book Nephilim and Giants as per Pop-Researchers and that is to claim that since Nephilim are referred to as gibborim in pre-flood days (the only days in which they existed) and Nimrod is described as having become a gibbor post-flood then he, somehow, became a Nephil.

As noted in my article “TJ Steadman claims ‘gibbowr can have other meanings besides ‘giant,’” he claims that gibbor can mean giant—with what he means by giant being a different issue (he means many things by it and leaves it to his readers to guess what he means at any given time).

Referring to a stone monster, as per Hurrian/Hittite mythology, TJ Steadman writes, “Ullikummi is referred to as a giant. Nimrod is called a ‘mighty one’ or ‘gibbowr,’ a term previously used in Scripture only to describe giants” pause: Note that when it comes to Ullikummi he is using giants to mean something vague about unusual height but when it comes to Scripture he means Nephilim (and since we have no reliable physical description of them, we cannot rightly claim they were even one inch taller than average).

As a side note: I am taking “a term previously used in Scripture only to describe giants” to refer back to Gen 6:4 since he knows very well that gibbor is used to describe non-giants (again, whatever that means) such as Boaz, David, his soldiers, Angels, God, etc.

Thus, at this point, the correlation between Ullikummi the giant and Nimrod the mighty one/gibbowr is well, no correlation at all.

TJ Steadman goes on to write, “Ullikummi is so tall; he reaches from the depths of the underworld right up to heaven. Nimrod wasn’t that big, but something else was…Nimrod’s tower of Babel! The connection is obvious. Where the Hittite giant is made of stone, Babel is made of another impervious material – bricks. The poetic nature of the text allows the writer to combine these ideas seamlessly.”

I would agree that “Nimrod wasn’t that big” for two reasons: there is no reason to imagine he was taller than average and we have no physical description of him (so “imagine” is all that anyone could do when it comes to his height).

Then again, we have no measurement of the Tower of Babel either, not any reason to think that its foundations were from the depths of the underworld.

When it comes to Nimrod, TJ Steadman makes another claim that is like unto claims made by many people I featured in my book Nephilim and Giants as per Pop-Researchers and that is to claim that Nimrod was aka many names/terms/titles and some go onto concoct elaborate eschatological scenarios therefrom—such as that Nimrod will be the “anti-Christ,” etc.

For example, TJ Steadman writes the following about Ezekiel 31:3-9 (see my article The Apocalypse of the Hidden Hand), “The passage was intended by Ezekiel to compare the proud Egyptian Pharaoh and his people the Egyptians to ‘The Assyrian’ or Nimrod and his people, the Assyrians” so that Nimrod is aka The Assyrian—there is much more to come on this point.

He adds that “What the prophecy also does is explain to us more about the source of Nimrod’s power” and that “This passage may reaffirm Nimrod’s giant physical stature with the metaphor of a cedar tree, but more likely it is a reference to his dominion as a king.”

So, the height of a cedar is Nimrod’s height “but more likely it is a reference to his dominion as a king.” Now, of course, if this “may reaffirm” Nimrod’s “giant physical stature” that means it has already been affirmed but, pray tell, where?

First, however, he is quite right about the metaphor and goes on to note that “In Biblical and other literature, kings are often likened to trees; specifically…‘cedars of Lebanon’ and the ‘oaks of Bashan,’” etc.
Such is the case, for example, in Amos 2:9 wherein the Amorites are referred to as being strong as oaks. Now, who even imagines that this implies conducting a one-to-one ratio based mathematical calculation between a person’s strength and that of an oak? Hopefully, no one: it is a mere metaphor for that they were strong.

Now, it also states that their “height was like the height of the cedars” and yes, in my aforementioned book I get into how many “giant” obsessed people do actually claim this was literal so they will measure cedars and tell us that is how tall Amorites were yet, these are mere metaphors for that they were big and strong.

TJ Steadman claims that “the tree of Ezekiel 31 is the great ‘cosmic tree,’” unsure what he is quoting there, “found in ancient cosmology” which seems to be what he was quoting there, “as the connection point between the realms of heaven, earth and underworld” so that “This was Nimrod’s representation of himself as the channel by which man had access to divine power.”

Now, whether or not we can correlate a Tower the stated purpose of which was to “make a name for ourselves” must be or can be interpreted via other ANE literature, we have no indication that Nimrod channeled divine power.

He specifies that “this metaphor, Nimrod, his great tower, and the cosmic tree” are about “a king drawing power from the underworld.”
To buttress this, he refers us to “Daniel 4 and its description of Nebuchadnezzar’s dream” about a tree but it states nothing about channeling divine power from the underworld or anywhere else—TJ Steadman seems to read such a concept from trees deriving sustenance from the ground via roots.

In any case, this is what we are contextually told about Nimrod, “Cush begat Nimrod: he began to be a mighty one in the earth. He was a mighty hunter before the LORD: wherefore it is said, Even as Nimrod the mighty hunter before the LORD. And the beginning of his kingdom was Babel, and Erech, and Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar” (Gen 10:8-10).

Thus, biblically, Nimrod was a regular guy, a hunter, who became mighty—period.

Yet, TJ Steadman has it that “The Biblical text says that Nimrod ‘began’ to be a mighty one. The Hebrew phrase chagal is used. This word is rendered ‘began’ many times” fair enough, “What Nimrod did specifically when he ‘began’ to be a mighty one is not revealed in detail (by the grace of God, thankfully!)” but he does not stop at this fact but goes on to argue that “but we can reasonably deduce a few things about what happened” because “The actual term used here for ‘mighty one’ is gibbowr (from which we get gibborim [masculine plural], the same term first used in Genesis 6:4 to describe the Nephilim, among its other uses in Scripture)” at which point we may reply “So what?”

He continues directly with “It is used three times in the Genesis 10 passage in reference to Nimrod; typically, in Hebrew thought such insistent repetition is intended to indicate the extreme or superlative nature of the condition. The term denotes strength, power, influence, tyranny, dominance and the like” indeed, such as in telling us the record of a regular guy who became might, established kingdoms, etc. which is quite a feat on its own.

Yet, for some that is not enough for some people.

TJ Steadman goes on to write, “It is also used to refer to giants. The Septuagint prefers that rendering here.” Now, an ongoing problem with TJ Steadman’s authorship is that at this point we know not if by “giants” he means something unusual about height, if so does he mean inches taller than average or feet or entire body lengths and if so how many more or any given one or does he mean Nephilim or Rephaim or what?
Well, I am emphasizing that as a general concern. I realize he is referring to Nephilim in this case (even though it is best to not refer to them as giants for more than one reason).

So, gibbor is used to refer to Nephilim and Nimrod so, what of it? They are both being referred to as mighty, so what? TJ Steadman is noting that they are both referred to as gigantes or gigas but again, so what?
In fact, this is a good time to example why rendering more than one word with only one word is problematic. The LXX render Nephilim and also gibborim and also Rephaim all as gigantes/gigas which only causes problems. For example, Gen 6:4 notes that Nephilim became gibborim, Nephilim became mighty, so that LXX has it that Gigantes became gigantes which is nonsensical, circular, and one does not need to become something that one is already.

In any case, to TJ Steadman, that Nimrod “began to be a mighty one in the earth. He was a mighty hunter before the LORD…the mighty hunter before the LORD” means that there is a “strong implication of the text is that Nimrod had initiated something that made him both corrupted and defiled; an abomination of sorts, and also very powerful” so that someone who did that which he did “before the LORD…before the LORD” was actually “corrupted and defiled; an abomination,” go figure.

Granted, I am granting that any one of us can do thing before the LORD, as in His name, pleasing to Him, etc. and end up botching things up—such as creating a Tower that the LORD then destroys. But the issue is to be very careful about what we are told, what we are not told, and what we make of such.

TJ Steadman notes “the Septuagint says three times that he became a giant, it would be reasonable to conclude that by some means he had become physically changed and that this was not simply political or persuasive power.”

Yet, this is utterly folly and why he really needs to exorcise the term giant from his vocabulary. In no way, shape, form or linguistic-etymological gymnastics is anyone including the LXX telling us that he became a “giant.”

TJ Steadman thinks that Nephilim or naphal/napiyla means giant and also that gibborim or gabar can mean giant. Now, he cannot claim that Nimrod became a giant because he is called a Nephil since he is not and he also cannot claim, at least not outright or exclusively, that Nimrod became a giant because he is called a gibbor since he has admitted that it does not always mean giant—and, in fact, it never once means any such thing.

TJ Steadman seeks to buttress his claims by appealing to an apocryphal text from circa the 3rd-4th AD centuries which is millennia after the Torah was written, “One example of a tradition regarding Nimrod’s transformation is Pseudo-Clement’s Homilies (9.4), in which Nimrod is associated with some dark magic, he is called a giant, and he is also given the name Zoroaster, father of the cult of Zoroastrianism. This is associated with a worship of fire, which according to other traditions…was a rite that Nimrod practiced.”

Well, there is a reason that the text is known as “Pseudo” since it consists of such incoherence.

Zoroastrian tradition dates him to 628 BC which is millennia after Nimrod died.

Pseudo has it that of “Of this [Noe’s] family there was born in due time a certain one, who took up with magical practices, by name Nebrod, who chose, giant-like, to devise things in opposition to God. Him the Greeks have called Zoroaster. He, after the deluge, being ambitious of sovereignty, and being a great magician, by magical arts compelled the world-guiding star of the wicked one who now rules, to the bestowal of the sovereignty as a gift from him…the magician Nebrod, being destroyed by this lightning falling on earth from heaven, for this circumstance had his name changed to Zoroaster, on account of the living stream of the star being poured upon him.”

Thus, they “buried the remains of his body, and honoured his burial-place with a temple among the Persians, where the descent of the fire occurred, and worshipped him as a god. By this example also, others there bury those who die by lightning as beloved of God.”

TJ Steadman also points out “Incidentally, fire (literally ‘burning’) comes from the same Hebrew word used to describe a venomous snake (‘saraph’). In this way, a venomous insect or scorpion’s sting might also be considered to ‘burn’ (for reasons we shall consider in a later chapter).” But what same Hebrew word? No such thing is stated about Nimrod in the Hebrew Bible and Pseudo was not written in Hebrew.

TJ Steadman also tells us:

Contact with the Nephilim is implied by the fact of the similar language in use (gibbowr from Genesis 6:4) and the change in body size that the Septuagint makes clear in the translation “giant.”
This explains the Sumerian tradition of the Apkallu – Nimrod had used divination to contact one of the ancient spirits from before the Flood. Nimrod’s (Emnerkar’s) use of divination is mentioned in the ancient text of the Cuthaean Legend, and a tradition of his coming into contact with the corpse of an ancient person is preserved in a version of Enmerkar and Adapa.
According to various Ancient Near Eastern (ANE) traditions, the coronation of kings was associated with rituals whereby the ancient gods were summoned to guide and empower the new king and to impart the wisdom of the great kings from before the Flood. Nimrod had probably “begun to be a mighty one” by this means and used his considerable power and influence to motivate his subjects to commence construction.

I realize that we are covering the same ground time and again but I am attempting to get the data from the horse’s mouth—since when I do not do so, I end up coming across as a horse’s well, opposite end. TJ Steadman covering the same or similar ground time and again as his book progresses and I am simply being as fair as I can be in variously quoting him.

Now, how can Nimrod have had “Contact with the Nephilim” since he accepts that “At the end of the Flood narrative…the Nephilim have all died.” It is because he buys into the folkloric notion from millennia after the Torah was written that asserts that demons are Nephilim spirits (for my biblical argument as to the identification of demons, see my article Demons Ex Machina: What are Demons?).

His claim is that it is because of the term gibbowr and something not found anywhere in the entire Bible, “the change in body size.” Well, if he had contact with Nephilim (in any form) then so did Boaz, David, his soldiers, Angels, God, etc. for reasons noted earlier. Also already reviewed is that the LXX’s reference to Nimrod as “giant” is a non-issue since that does not state nor even imply anything about height: the LXX has the Nephilim as “earth-born” (gigantes/gigas) and so also Nimrod.

I will focus on TJ Steadman’s claims about Apkallu in another article. For now, note that there is no such thing as “the” singular “Sumerian tradition” singular “of the Apkallu” but various ones, which makes it difficult, if not impossible, to correlate Apkallu with Nimrod or Nephilim or sons of God.

Somehow, TJ Steadman now has Nimrod having “used divination to contact one of the ancient spirits from before the Flood” dead Nephilim due to Pagan legends into which he is reading references to Nimrod—by any other name.

In fact, note that he is claiming that Nimrod was aka The Assyrian and also aka Emnerkar. Yet, he will go on to refer to “The Assyrian, the entity that empowered Nimrod.” Yet also, “It appears that the Amorite kings, beginning with Nimrod, were associated somehow with Leviathan.”
He also wrote in terms of that “the spirit of Nimrod, also known as ‘the Assyrian’ or ‘Rahab’” and “Enmerkar, the man the Bible calls Nimrod…the Sumerian King List including Enmerkar (Nimrod)…” (http://giantanswers.com/blog/master-of-chaos and http://giantanswers.com/blog/the-apkallu).

Also, “Ezekiel 31, where the prophet uses this imagery to denounce the Pharaoh of the day. Ezekiel compares the Pharaoh to an ancient ruler who embodied the nature of the world tree – a man who controlled the world of his day by harnessing a dark power from the Great Deep. Ezekiel calls him ‘The Assyrian.’ The writer of Genesis calls him that too – after he calls him ‘Nimrod’” (http://giantanswers.com/blog/the-cosmic-tree).

Thus, Nimrod is aka Emnerkar and the Assyrian but that really refers to a spirit that is also aka Rahab and has something to do with Leviathan.
In addition, to read an actually functioning form of apotheosis into ANE traditions and that this must apply to Nimrod is as far a stretch as it sounds.

TJ Steadman throws this into the speculative mix, “Nimrod was called a hunter. Some say he merely hunted animals, some that he hunted men. There was even a rabbinical tradition that he hunted the Nephilim and fallen angels!”

He also writes, “Nimrod was a man when he became a giant, and he was not born that way…references to Nimrod as a gibbowr or ‘giant’ indicates supernatural interaction” (emphasis in original).

As aforementioned, biblically, Nimrod was a regular man when he became mighty, and he was not born that way since he was first a regular guy. By now we are well aware that writing in terms of “gibbowr or ‘giant’” is unsubstantiated and cannot be unsubstantiated—in any language—so that a conclusion of “supernatural interaction” is a faulty one based on a faulty premise.

Earlier, I noted that TJ Steadman had written “gibbowr can have other meanings besides ‘giant,’ and Boaz [Ruth 2:1] was certainly not a giant! Gibbowr is the same term applied to Nimrod. So, we are reminded of the problem that the Messiah must deal with – the legacy of the giants.’” I reviewed the first portion time and again and as for the last portion: the Bible knows of no such thing anywhere in any way, shape, or form.
TJ Steadman also claims, “Nimrod put the sons of God into himself and his followers” which is wholly made-up stuff.

He writes, “as far back as Moses, it was foretold that the vengeance of God would come upon the faithless by means of the ‘venom… laid up in store… among My treasures’ – the power that Nimrod had discovered that transformed him into a gibbowr and made him a giant!” which we know very well by now is faulty on various levels—and in various languages.

He claims, “Nimrod was able to connect to a fallen son of God in order to bring about the Rephaim, essentially bringing the Nephilim back to life.” So, he not only had “Contact with the Nephilim” who were dead (and gone) but with a, singular, fallen son of God/Angel so that Rephaim are the return of Nephilim.

Now, biblically, Nephilim are strictly pre-flood hybrids, Rephaim are strictly post-flood humans (Rephaim as a people group, with the root rapha also referring to healing, to death, etc. which is another issue).
There is no biblical indication whatsoever that Rephaim are anything but 100% human (even if, again, the root rapha has other usages—which, actually, TJ Steadman compounds).

But that is not all, TJ Steadman further claims that “Having found some means by which he was able to transform himself into a giant…his plan to overthrow God by transforming the whole world into giants” about which I think I need not reply since it is merely the stuff of theo-sci-fi.

TJ Steadman wrote the following of Gen 4:26 “to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD”:

On the face of it, this looks like the origin of prayer or praise. Unfortunately, our English Bibles do us a disservice here. The problem lies in the word “began.”
The Hebrew is chalal. We will spend a lot more time on this word later in the book, but for now, it will serve us to be aware that it means more than just “started to do something.”
There are all kinds of bad connotations associated with it, indicating that it was the start of something that defiled or profaned the people involved in it. This was not praying to Yahweh or praising Yahweh.
It was more like “men profaning and defiling Yahweh’s name, possibly by applying it to themselves.” Incidentally, Enos means, “man.”

His point in claiming this is so as to tie it to Nimrod because Gen 10:8 states, “And Cush begat Nimrod: he began” chalal “to be a mighty one in the earth” so he wants to read this as a negative thing.
He also wrote of this issue thusly, “Genesis 4:26, indicating when ‘men [Sethites] began to call upon the name of the Yahweh,’ they were actually profaning His name (possibly calling themselves by His name), and the same word is used again in the account of the Nephilim, in Genesis 6:1.”

Now, that it is employed “in the account of the Nephilim” is generic since, sure, it is in the account but how so?

“And it came to pass, when men began” chalal “to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them…” and there is nothing wrong with this. In fact, this is what God had commanded Adam and Eve and thus, humanity. Also, that is just about what humanity was, rightly, doing after which comes a reference to son of God and then Nephilim.
Yet, it matters not since there is nothing inherently negative about chalal. For example:
Gen 9:20 “And Noah [chalal] to be an husbandman,” nothing wrong with that.
Deu 2:24 “Rise ye up, take your journey, and pass over the river Arnon: behold, I have given into thine hand Sihon the Amorite, king of Heshbon, and his land: [chalal] to possess it, and contend with him in battle” which is what God commanded.
Deu 3:24 “O Lord GOD, thou hast [chalal] to shew thy servant thy greatness, and thy mighty hand: for what God is there in heaven or in earth, that can do according to thy works, and according to thy might?” which is a good thing.
Deu 16:9 “Seven weeks shalt thou number unto thee: [chalal] to number the seven weeks from such time as thou [chalal] to put the sickle to the corn” again, non-issue.
Jos 3:7 “And the LORD said unto Joshua, This day will I [chalal] to magnify thee in the sight of all Israel, that they may know that, as I was with Moses, so I will be with thee” which is another good thing.
Thus, just because a word can sometimes be used in a negative context, does not mean it must always be understood that way—and this is true of any language since context ultimately determines meaning.

TJ Steadman also referred to “the original giants after the Flood (Nimrod being the first of this kind).”

Also, “Nimrod found a way to become a giant, a fate with which he had planned to infect all of humanity at Babel.”

Also, “ancient kings of the world were empowered by the Rephaim, like Nimrod, Og, Sihon, Amalek/Agag, Arba, Anak and many others.”
In an article titled “Master of Chaos” (http://giantanswers.com/blog/master-of-chaos), TJ Steadman wrote, “The religions and political structures of the world were not invented by Nimrod. They came from the fallen sons of God – known to the Mesopotamians as the Anunnaki” whom he also refers to as “Anunnaki/Igigu” and claims that “Anunnaki and the Igigu serve as ministers to the gods, the Apkallu” (http://giantanswers.com/blog/the-apkallu).

He continued thusly, “And once Nimrod had drawn on their power to invoke the spirits of the dead Nephilim giants from the Flood, the Anuna-gods had an army that would do their bidding. They were the Rephaim, and they enforced the enslavement of humanity to the new gods of the ancient world.”

He also refers to Nimrod as “the first giant of the post-Flood world” who “brought the Rephaim into existence by summoning a power from the great deep” (http://giantanswers.com/blog/the-cosmic-tree).
He continues by referring to the Tower of Babel as “the birthplace of the post-Flood giants” and that Nimrod “was little more than a tool in the hands of a greater, darker power. The Leviathan” to whom/which he also refers to as “Leviathan (or Lotan)” (http://giantanswers.com/blog/dancing-with-the-stars).

He also wrote, “The astrology of the ancient world strengthens the Biblical position of Ezekiel 31 that Nimrod the mighty hunter, the giant, pursued the ancient pre-Flood spirits, becoming joined with one of them; one associated with the Light-bringer, Satan” (http://giantanswers.com/blog/dancing-with-the-stars).

See my various books here.

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The Classic Theology site presents THE NEPHILIM! A Word Study and History of Interpretation

Vincent, “a pastor, monk enthusiast, and a giant theology nerd,” posted the article THE NEPHILIM! A Word Study and History of Interpretation which begins by asking, “Be there giants?”

He informs us that, “2 Timothy 3:16 famously says that all scripture is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness…So let’s pick out a really weird verse and see what God has to say in it!”

He then quotes:

Genesis 6:1-8

6 When human beings began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of humans were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. 3 Then the Lord said, “My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal; their days will be a hundred and twenty years.”

4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

5 The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. 6 The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. 7 So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.”8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord.

He notes that, “To make heads or tails of this passage, we have to be able to identify 3 different groups: the sons of God, the daughters of man, and the Nephilim.”

He notes, “sons of God or ‘bene haelohim’…appears two other times in the Bible (Job 1:6 and Job 2:1) and in each instance it clearly means ‘angels.’”

I would add Job 38:7 wherein it’s even clearer that the bene ha Elohim are non-human—FYI: the LXX has Angeloi, the plural of Angelos. Also, we could look to texts such as Psalm 82 which employs the similar term ben Elyon.

Vincent notes that since, “Genesis and Job weren’t written at the same time…It could mean something like ‘men who follow God’ or ‘men who are like God,’ (aka godly men).” Yet, that would mean that men who follow God/who are like God/godly men didn’t really follow God, weren’t like God, and weren’t Godly since they were such terrible sinners that their sin served as the premise for the flood—and what was their sin anyhow?

He also notes the generic nature of the term Elohim since it, “can mean ‘God’…could mean ‘king’…could mean ‘angel’…could easily mean ‘sons of kings’ or ‘sons of warlords.’” And yet, since it’s juxtaposed with, “‘daughters of humans’ (a phrase uncommon in Scripture and more clearly rendered ‘daughters of man’ in Hebrew): then that’s part of why the original, traditional, and majority view among the earliest Jewish and Christians commentators, starting in BC days, was the Angel view” as I proved in my book, On the Genesis 6 Affair’s Sons of God: Angels or Not? A Survey of Early Jewish and Christian Commentaries Including Notes on Giants and the Nephilim.

Also, Jude and 2 Peter 2 combined refer to a sin of Angels, place that sin to pre-flood days and correlate it to sexual sin which occurred after the Angels, “left their first estate,” after which they were incarcerated, and there’s only a one-time fall/sin of Angels in the Bible.

Of Nephilim, he notes, “The literal translation from the Hebrew is ‘the fallen ones’” and in stating, “It appears in two other places in the Bible” besides Gen 6:4, he ends up misrepresenting Num 13 since he notes that it appears, “when the Hebrew spies look over at Canaan to see if it is safe to inhabit and they see nephilim (usually rendered ‘giants’ in English) and again in Ezekiel 32 to describe warriors that have fallen on the battlefield.”

There are 12 spies and two reports in Num 13, he generically referred to them all, “the spies” but it was the 10 unreliable ones who in their, “evil report” merely asserted, “they see nephilim” but that’s literally impossible since that was post-flood—and, BTW, God rebuked them, to death: see my post Chapter sample: On the Post Flood Nephilim Proposal.

As for, “usually rendered ‘giants’” that’s actually a very on point qualifying technical term since most refer to that as a translation but it’s not.

That actually begs these key questions:

What’s the usage of the vague, generic, subjective, multi-usage and modern English word “giants” in English Bibles?

What’s Vincent’s usage of the vague, generic, subjective, multi-usage and modern English word “giants”?

Do those two usages agree?

For now, I will say that he seems to understand that it’s merely rendering words: Nephilim, in this case, which he identified as meaning, “the fallen ones.”

As for, “in Ezekiel 32” well, that’s really just the usage of the root word naphal so it’s referring to fallen, dead, warriors, v. :27, “And they do not lie with the mighty, the fallen [naphal] from among the uncircumcised, who went down to Sheol with their weapons of war, whose swords were laid under their heads, and whose iniquities are upon their bones; for the terror of the mighty men was in the land of the living.”

Back to the key questions, Vicent rightly notes, “The giants idea might seem out of left field, given the English translation, but an ancient Greek manuscript grants us a little insight.  The Septuagint (a Greek translation of the Old Testament from the 3rd century BC) has Nephilim translated as ‘gigantes’ or giants” yet, we need a bit more technicality.

The Septuagint/LXX, “has Nephilim” and gibbor/im and Repha/im all rendered, not, “translated”—come on Vincent, you were going so well ;o)—as gigantes which means earth-born. Also, “‘gigantes’ or giants” only begs the question: what does giants mean. Rendering three very different words with very different meanings with only one word was a terrible idea. The English Bibles that follow the LXX by swapping gigantes for giants have lead to undiscerning English readers to chase an English flaccid designator, a usus loquendi, around a Hebrew Bible without discerning that—and here’s the answer to the first key question—it merely renders Nephilim in 2 verses or Rephaim in 98% of all others (and so, BTW, never even hints at anything to do with any sort of height whatsoever)—English versions don’t render gibbor/im as giants so that’s at least one giant step forward in cleaning up the LXX’s mess.

To make the next point succinct, Vincent notes, “The oldest interpretation I could find was from the Book of Enoch.  This little apocryphal book (book that didn’t make it into the Bible) was probably written between 200 and 300 BC.  And obviously Enoch didn’t write it” indeed, 1 Enoch is Bible contradicting folklore from centuries, if not millennia, after the Torah, see my book, In Consideration of the Book(s) of Enoch. Yet, it correctly identified the sons of God as Angles, which it terms Watchers since that’s the Second Temple Era term for Malakim/Angels.

Vincent then notes, “we’ve got the angels and giants theory on the table” just ignore the English term giants and read it as Nephilim, and, “How does mainstream Judaism react in the coming years?  They don’t seem to care for it much…a majority of rabbinic writings that emerge tend to favor readings that cast the sons of God as tyrants and the Nephilim as powerful warriors.  These readings gain more and more momentum over time.”

Well, that’s a bit of a tricky statement since we’ve no much mainstream, Rabbinic mind you, Judaism literature until the codification of the Talmudim circa 300-500 BC and, again, the majority was still the Angel view granting some early Targumim and Midrashim.

He notes that while early Christians took the Angel view, “After about the year 300, the angel/giant theory seems to take a nosedive” and there’s a reason for that and that reasons’ name is Augustine (of Hippo who lived 354-430 BC (give up this “C.E.” stuff Vincent, it’s just an anti-Christian MO).

Augustine was massively influential and while his views on this issue where actually quite nuanced, see my book’s chapter about him, I put him on my psychologist armchair and determined why he went against centuries worth of a majority view. He converted from the Gnostic Manichean sect, Augustine sought to be rid of all Manichean influences upon him thus, since Mani held to the Angel view, Augustine wouldn’t.

For some odd reason, Vincent asserted, “Jesus said specifically in Mark 12 that Angels have no interest in procreation.” Yet, I’m unsure how he got that from, “they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.” I suppose we could say that, as Jesus was so careful to qualify: loyal, “angels in heaven” have no such interest but those who did, “left their first estate” in order to do so, as Jude put it, which is why they’re considered sinners.

On Vincent’s view, “what happened to the giants, because if you render that word ‘giants’ to resolve their appearance in Numbers, you need them to survive a world-ending flood that the Bible deliberately says they would not have survived.” Indeed, and that alone debunks 100% of pop-Nephilology.

Yes, he goes on to opine, “The whole interpretation is just incredibly bizarre and doesn’t make logical or narrative sense. So theologians started speaking out against it.”

Yet, that’s much ado about nothing since the biblical doctrine is clear: they didn’t survive and didn’t return in any way, shape, or form. Yet, centuries post-flood 10 unreliable guys just made a up an evil report tall-tale about seeing them and were rebuked my God. End of biblical story.

It really is that simple and is why there’s literally zero post-flood reference to living Nephilim from anywhere except one single sentence in that unreliable evil report.

Vincent then does what seems to me to be much ado about nothing about that Seth looked like Adam more than his other kids, “Seth is born to Adam ‘in his image and likeness.’  Genesis 1:26 previously established that Adam was made in God’s image and likeness.  To some interpreters, this was a symbolic passing of the torch.  Seth inherited his godliness from his father.”

From there, he asserts, “There became two types of people on the Earth: the children of Seth, and the children of Cain.  These two branches seem to be symbolic, more than biological” which is rather odd since Sethies are of the lineage of Seth by definition and Cainites of Cain.

Perhaps he knows the utter weakness of the Sethite view and so does what Sethite view holders don’t actually tend to do which is to water down what it was to be a Sethite and Cainite: they were biological bloodline lineages.

Yet, by doing that he can go on to claim, “The devout and the worldly…people of faith decide to compromise” but the issue is that it becomes to vague and generic so you can feel free to call someone bio-born in Seth’s genealogy a Cainite but Vicent’s whole point was to point back to the genealogies in Gen 5 and yet, only to go on to ignore them: he began this train of thought thusly, “Christians looked back at what happened previously in Genesis and tried to think about how this puzzle piece fit.  Genesis 5 is highly interested in genealogies.”

We finally come to Vincent elucidating, “What do I believe?” a section wherein he oddly writes, “I’d rather be wrong with the likes of Augustine, Aquinas, Luther, and Calvin than right with anybody else”: such as with the Bible and the original, traditional, and majority view among the earliest Jewish and Christians commentators, starting in BC days?

To him, the late-comer of a view based on myth, prejudice and which only creates more problems than it solves (so, more than zero) is, “the most well-represented in Christian tradition, but it just makes sense.  It’s logical.  It fits the Biblical narrative leading from genealogy to flood, and it addresses a constant theme in the Bible: don’t compromise your faith to fit into this world more comfortably.”

See my various books here.

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TJ Steadman claims “Giants = Giants”

It makes sense to commonsensically point out that “Giants = Giants,” right?

He asks, “Were the Nephilim giants invented by ancient Israelites, or are there other reliable sources that back up the Biblical claims?” which, as my regular readers well, know must primarily be answered with a question: what does he mean by the undefined, subjective, generic, and vague English word “giants”?

He references, “the Septuagint, or LXX, translated in the 3rd – 2nd centuries BC” and notes that “today’s Bible (if you have one that actually translates the words instead of employing transliteration) preserves the same meaning that the Greeks of that day understood. When they said ‘giants,’ they meant it the same way we moderns understand it – Very Big People.” So now, note carefully, we got TJ Steadman’s definition of “giants” (even if the term “Very Big” is as subjective as “giants”) but we do not have the LXX’s definition.

He further notes, “That translation in the LXX achieves more than just to inform us that the Anakim were tall by association with the Rephaim (translated ‘gigantes’ in the Greek). Because the same Greek is used to translate the earlier 6th century BC Aramaic ‘Naphilin’ (plural form of Naphila, which means ‘giant’) which was preserved in the Hebrew Bible as ‘Nephilim.’”

One reason that pop-researchers are successful is that it is very simple to write such succinct statements and it is a lot more boring and time consuming to write and read analyses of such.

The Bible, in any version, tells us that Anakim were “tall” (even if the term “tall” is as subjective as “Very Big” and “giants”). Yet, we know they were “tall” contextual to the average Israelite male who in those days was 5.0-5.3 ft.

TJ Steadman thinks that “Anakim were tall by association with the Rephaim,” Anakim were a Rephaim subgroup, yet because the word “Rephaim” is “translated ‘gigantes’” but that is not a translation, it is a rendering.

This is also a case of the word-concept fallacy whereby we are supposed to think that they were whatever gigantes/giants/very big means because such is how the name of the people is rendered.
Living in modern day North America, I have been called a giant many, many, many times and I am only 6 ft. even.

Consider that the LXX also renders “Nephilim” as gigantes and also “gibborim” as gigantes. This proves that Rephaim was not being translated as gigantes since neither the etymology or morphology of words as different as Nephilim, Rephaim, and gibborim cannot all be translated with the single word gigantes.

Also, gigantes implies nothing about unusual height since it merely means “earth-born.” Thus, etymologically the English word “giant” also does not imply anything about unusual height even if later usage implies as much.

Now, he claims, “the same Greek is used to translate the earlier 6th century BC Aramaic ‘Naphilin’” he is doing so because Dr. Michael Heiser, graduate of the University of Pennsylvania (M.A., Ancient History) and the University of Wisconsin- Madison (M.A., Ph.D., Hebrew Bible and Semitic Studies) and Scholar-in-Residence at Logos Bible Software, claims that “Naphila [generally transliterated a naphiyla], which means ‘giant’” by which Heiser means not taller than 8 ft. or so.

et, this is a style battle of the credentialed experts since J. Edward Wright, who is the J. Edward Wright Endowed Professor of Judaic Studies and Director of the Arizona Center for Judaic Studies at the University of Arizona notes, “The term traditionally translated as ‘giants’ in both the Greek Septuagint (γιγαντες) and now in English is נפילים nephilim, a term based on the root נפל npl meaning ‘fall.’ It has nothing to do with size” and specifies that this goes for both Hebrew and Aramaic as “The root npl in Aramaic also means fall and not giants” (Private communique, July 2019).

Yet, the bottom line is that pop-researchers such as TJ Steadman suffer from Gigorexia Nervosa: an obsession with seeking “giants” and inventing them when they are nowhere to be seen.

In any case, his argument is if (and that is a big IF) the word “Nephilim” derives from the Aramaic naphiyla rather than the Hebrew naphal: fallen, to fall, etc.

You can find all of my articles regarding TJ Steadman here, including out debate.

See my various books here.

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A plea: I have to pay for server usage and have made all content on this website free and always will. I support my family on one income and do research, writing, videos, etc. as a hobby.

If you can even spare $1.00 as a donation, please do so: it may not seem like much but if each person reading this would do so, even every now and then, it would add up and really, really help out.

Here is my donate/paypal page.

You can comment here and/or on my Twitter/X page, on my Facebook page, or any of my other social network sites all which are available here.