From Ben Watkins’s diary Why I Am an Atheist

Undergoing review is Ben Watkins: Why I Am an Atheist. I had a discussion with Ben—see here—and found that he’s one of those philosopher types who has lost the ability to understand simple concepts. For example, I used the term “accident” and it took him circa half an hour to understand what I mean—even though I defined what I meat upfront, a half hour previous.

But, by golly, he sounded good since I would make a statement and, in reply, he’d launch into a mini-lecture—which made the discussion virtually impossible.

In any case, and just in case anyone is impressed by the way he sounds, we’re about to find out that he cannot help but fail for various reasons including that he’s chosen a worldview that fails before it even begins and even if true, contains the seeds to reject that it’s true—since, on that worldview truth is accidental, as is our ability to discern it, there’s no universal imperative to adhere to it, nor to demand/expect others to adhere to it which, well, collapses the whole thing right then and there.

What’s most interesting is that he wrote the article to be published on a Christian website so we’d have to imagine that he sought to pull out the big guns, his best of the best arguments but, alas, all we get are emotive assertions.

One of his first sentences is that, that, “Some people are atheists” begs the question, “what reasons are there to think this claim is true?” which means his philosophy isn’t deep enough, he’s beginning in step 2 (or even more down the line) rather than with one.

Ben Watkins variously defines Atheism as, “the denial or rejection of all gods” and “Historically, the ordinary sense of atheism has been understood to mean the belief there are no gods” and another denomination which takes the watered down definition of, “lack the belief or are absent a belief there is at least one god” as Ben put it.

Now, Ben Watkins self-identifies thusly, “I’m an atheist in the stronger, belief-implying sense” meaning he positively affirms God’s non-existence (or, the non-existence of any/all gods) so let’s see if he proves it, his, “reasons to believe there are no gods” as he put it.

Ben notes he, “grew up in a Christian home and regularly attended worship services. Though I was never a particularly devout believer.” In his mid-twenties he “began to seriously reflect on the question of god’s existence. Who is more likely to be getting things right? Theists or atheists?” but did you catch the step skipping this time? He refers to getting things right without bother to state why such is even an issue—you’ll note that he constantly begs, borrows, and steals from the biblical worldview in order to attack it which means he’s attacking his own foundations, his hidden assumption of a biblical worldview foundation to which he’s forced to resort since Atheism offer him none.

Ben Watkins notes, “One of them must be right because they are exhaustive and mutually exclusive possibilities” but, again, he doesn’t bother telling us what of it, so what? Moreover, he has us wonder, “Whose opinions are based on better reasons and evidence?” which merely asserts that we ought to base our views on reasons and evidence without bother to tell us how or why, on his worldview: this is misosophy. Fascinatingly, he asks, “who is merely rationalizing their beliefs?” without bothering to tell us how or why that’s even a question: what does it matter if accidentally existing apes rationalize false views in an existence wherein there’s no universal imperative for accidentally existing apes to not rationalize false views?

Ben notes that he reduced his views from “never a particularly devout believer” to “at least a minimal theist or theist in a broad sense” and specifically, “a perfect being monotheist or theist in a narrow sense…one maximally perfect disembodied mind always worthy of our worship.”

He says that back then, he found his religious beliefs, “challenged by the incredulity of New Atheists like Christopher Hitchens” and, ironically, incredulity is all Hitchens had to offer. Ben Watkins quotes Hitchens so I imagine he handpicked the best of the best Hitchens had to offer, especially since he notes, “This sort of challenge resonated with me because for years I had struggled to make sense of what I read in the Bible”:

“In order to be a Christian, you have to believe that for 98,000 years, our species suffered and died, most of its children dying in childbirth, most other people having a life expectancy of about 25 years, dying of their teeth. Famine, struggle, bitterness, war, suffering, misery, all of that for 98,000 years.

Heaven watches this with complete indifference. And then 2000 years ago, thinks ‘That’s enough of that. It’s time to intervene,’ and the best way to do this would be by condemning someone to a human sacrifice somewhere in the less literate parts of the Middle East.

Don’t let’s appeal to the Chinese, for example, where people can read and study evidence and have a civilization. Let’s go to the desert and have another revelation there. This is nonsense. It can’t be believed by a thinking person.”

Well, that may be nice and emotive but it’s no challenge, it’s a list of merely jumped to assertions.

Christopher Hitches did not bother telling us, ever, what’s wrong with any of those things, on his worldview. So what if accidentally existing apes believe those things, are okay with them, etc.

Moreover, on Atheism “suffered and died…Famine, struggle, bitterness, war, suffering, misery” can either be said to have no objective, universal, significance or are actually good since they rid us of the weak and assisted human evolution. Evil, pain, and suffering are some of the very best reasons for rejecting Atheism.

That “Heaven watches this with complete indifference” is also a jumped to conclusion without an argument and is also contradicted by, for example, 1,001 points made in the Bible. Thus, it wasn’t “2000 years ago” that “It’s time to intervene.” He also merely emotively asserts something about “a human sacrifice” and some rant about “less literate parts of the Middle East”: this is merely incoherent.

He also bad mouthed the Middle East when, for example, at the time of Jesus the Tanakh was available in at least three languages.

And the artificial icing on the bleached white flour cake is his mere emotivism, “This is nonsense” and what Hitchens subjectively considered nonsense is not a standard. Moreover, perhaps we can grant that, “It can’t be believed by a thinking person” but since he mischaracterized the view then perhaps we can say that no thinking person would believe that, no one does believe that, no thinking person should conceive of that much less be challenged by it.

Ben Watkins also notes, “Documentaries like The Atheism Tapes shook my Christian theism to its core” which denotes that his level of discernment was hardly registering a heart beat.

Typically, he merely asked, “How much were my religious beliefs in tension with my scientific and ethical beliefs?” without bothering to note how that’s even an issue.

Ben focuses on that, “Miracle events are a suspension of or intervention in the laws of nature. By laws of nature I mean the causal regularities or principles we have confidently established by our best methods of science,” pause: on his worldview laws of nature are accidental, as are their casualness and regularities or principles and that we have confidently established just means some accidentally existing apes observed accidents and the byproducts of accidents and accidentally learned to communicate those observations.

He notes, “Miracle events are in tension with science,” which is a mere assertion, but doesn’t bother telling us what the problem is even if there’s such a tension.

He notes, “Eyewitness testimony and oral traditions are prone to error, exaggeration, and deception” but, you guessed it, didn’t bother telling us what’s wrong error, exaggeration, and deception in an existence wherein there’s no universal imperative to not adhere to error, exaggeration, and deception.

Moreover, he seemed to imply that “Miracle events are” based on, “Eyewitness testimony and oral traditions” which “are prone to error, exaggeration, and deception” but he seems to begin with the conclusion that “Miracle events are” mere fictional tales based on “error, exaggeration, and deception” and so are to be considered to be “error, exaggeration, and deception” so that he’s arguing in a circle—note that circularity is any sort of problem, on Atheism.

This is getting very tedious but I must emphasize how his entire article is 99% substance-free emotive assertion to which he jumped (and based on hidden assumptions), he wrote, “evidence for any familiar miracle event is weaker than the evidence for our best scientific theories” but he didn’t provide a premise, nor an argument, but merely an asserted conclusion.

Now, he did attempt a logical syllogism which is:

1. “evidence for any familiar miracle event is weaker than the evidence for our best scientific theories.”

2. “Familiar miracle events conflict with the implications of our best scientific theories” which is basically a paraphrase of 1.

3. “We should have more confidence in claims we have better evidence for” note his mere demand “We should” so that this one utterly fails since his worldview offers him no such should: he’s merely expressing a subjective personal preference du jour based on hidden assumptions.

And the therefore:

4. “We should have higher confidence in the implications of our scientific theories than we have in any familiar miracle event” which fails for the same reasons as 3.

Thus, his syllogism utterly fails.

He merely asserts, yet again (and again), “We have more reason to believe the universe is a causally closed system working in accordance with non-intentional, natural laws than we do to believe the causal order is intentionally suspended from the outside” which we need to unpack (he has a gift for very tightly packaging numerous fallacies into compact statements):

“We have more reason to believe” not no reason given by Ben Watkins to adhere to what for which we have more (which he didn’t quantify) reasons nor any reason, for that matter.

That “the universe is a causally closed system” is interesting since by noting that “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth” and then ceased from His creative work (see Gen chaps 1-2) we have a prediction of laws of thermodynamics—and a prediction of that the universe is a time (beginning), space (heavens), and matter (earth) continuum.

He asserts, “non-intentional, natural laws” which means he agrees with me that on Atheism, they’re accidental—also, note that Atheists reject a personal omnipresent, omnipotent administrator of the universe but believe in impersonal omnipresent, omnipotent administrators of the universe (which is part of how and why Atheism is Paganism: nature worshipping).

He affirms that “we,” to whomever we refers, “do to believe the causal order is intentionally suspended from the outside” which means that he’s rejecting miracles by definition, conceptually, not based on evidence in any given case.

Note his qualifying terms, “miracle events probably do not happen. In other words, dead people probably do not come back to life, people are probably not born of virgins, and water probably cannot spontaneously turn into wine.” Thus, he’s admitting these might, could happen—and, he doesn’t bother telling us what would be wrong with believing things such as these even if they probably don’t occur, or are proved 100% to not occur.

He seems to have not considered the implications of his worldview and/or never incorporated the implications of his worldview to your worldview—good thing for him that being consistent isn’t a universal imperative on Atheism: which is why Atheist are only ever consistently inconsistent.

Speaking of implications, he concludes his assertions about miracles by noting, “those claims will always have to compete with the confidence we currently have in our scientific theories and their implications.” Now, this means miracle claims will always have to compete with the confidence (a compound Latin term meaning with faith) we currently (as in tentatively) have meaning that tomorrow, miracles might be verified—as, of course, many already have.

Note another impotent demand of his, “we have to,” apparently because thus saith Ben, “ask ourselves” whether “the laws of nature been suspended…or has some other mistake been made which does not conflict with our best scientific theories” he suggests, “The latter is more plausible” without providing any stats nor bothering to tell us why we “have to” opt for one over the other.

We now come to a subsection titled, “Ethics and the Bible” and I hope he understands the technical difference between morals and ethics—we shall see.

For the first time in the article, he here refers to the “New atheists” of which Christopher Hitchens was one of the Four Horsemen (actually, Four My Little Ponies) and the true brilliance of the New Atheist movement is that they were very, very successful in encouraging Atheists to just be emotive, jump to asserted conclusions, make demands, be childish, and run away: Atheist tactics 101.

The first paragraph in this subsection has Ben already moving the goalpost from ethics to morality (good thing for him that moving the goalpost isn’t an issue on Atheism) as he refers to, “events and actions described in the Bible were in tension with my most basic moral intuitions” intuitions which, by the way, are accidental on Atheism and which there’s no universal imperative to follow. See what I noted up front about how Atheism “contains the seeds to reject that it’s true”?

Ben Watkins subjectively states, “I could not make any moral sense of how a wholly good and perfectly loving being could kill all but a handful of human and non-human creatures.”

Two issues, at least, that about which Ben subjectively “could not make any moral sense” isn’t a standard. And even to Atheists it makes perfect “moral sense”: allow me to elucidate.

See, on a technical level morality, morals, refers to the mores which are mere descriptions of whatever people happen to be doing thus, morality is, by definition, subjective, tentative, situational, intrinsic, etc.

On a technical level ethics refers to the ethos which are mere prescriptions of what people should, ought to be doing thus, ethics are, by definition, absolute, universal, objective, extrinsic, etc.—note that some term this universal morals or objective morals or absolute morals, etc.

Another issue is that there’s a difference between killing and murder: killing is ethical such as in cases of self-defense but murder is the taking of innocent lives.

Thus, God never murders but does kill and there’s nothing unethical about killing. Keep in mind that Atheists demand that morality evolved (yes, they will generally stated in the past tense: it evolved as if it has stopped) which disqualifies them from ever condemning anything since what’s moral today may be immoral tomorrow and visa versa.

Thus, they disqualify themselves from condemning any past action since, after all, that was the morality back then. Such is why I noted that “And even to Atheists it makes perfect ‘moral sense’” since they note that our moral sense is tentative—and I, technically, agree.

Ben Watkins then gets into issues that could take us down the free will route, “If such a world was not worth preserving, then why was it worth creating in the first place?” Well, “such a world” is technically not what God created since the chronological context of the flood is post-fall and is thus, not technically the same as God originally created.

In this subsection, Ben offers zero argumentation (does he ever?) but merely asks rhetorical questions.

Speaking of free will: to bottom line this issue let’s grant that everything can ultimately be laid at God’s feet since He’s either at fault for allowing free will or for not allowing it.

Yet, the issue for Atheists is that they condemn a being in whom they supposedly disbelieve and also have no premise upon which to condemn in the first place so can only make jumped to emotive assertions which are just expressions of their subjective personal preferences (based on hidden assumptions).

Ben then asks about how God could “command soldiers to slaughter men, women, and children while taking others for slaves.” Now, one could go on and on about these issues or one could begin by noting that Ben’s objection to these (and no, he doesn’t bother qualifying the blanket and emotive term slaves) is, “I believe the slaughter of innocent men, women, and children, and the ownership of other persons morally objectionable.”

Did you catch his modus operandi? It’s pure subjectivism, “I believe…morally objectionable” yet, you guessed it, what which Ben believes and finds objectionable are not standards. Keep in mind that this was supposed to be about why he’s an Atheist so why does he 100% fail to argue in favor of Atheism such as telling us how he can condemn such things via an Atheist premise? Because he can’t since Atheism is that much of a failure.

He ends the subsection by merely declaring “Any being with this character and having performed these actions could not possibly be wholly good and perfectly loving” but he didn’t bother telling us how nor why: just take Ben’s word for it, apparently.

Thus, the article is merely an exercise of Ben sharing his feelings at the level of a “My Dear Diary, today I feel…”

He moves the goalpost again in the next subsection by referring to how as per original sin, “finite beings are (somehow?) ethically blameworthy for Adam and Eve abusing their free will.”

At lease we learn that he holds to free will which seems to contradict Atheism: how are accidentally existing apes free when their accidental neural bio-chemistry is supposed to be predetermined by accidental laws of themodynamics?

Ben Watkins declares, “it does not make any ethical sense” but, you know it, that which subjectively does or does not make ethical sense to him is not a standard.

Now, perhaps we would need to get into meta-ethics in order to deal with emotive objection that, “we could somehow be responsible for actions we did not perform” but I’ll just note that it’s an issue of linear time, chronology, cause and effect, etc. on the level of, for example, suffering the effects of a bomb we personally did not detonate.

This subsection is also just a list of rhetorical questions thus, Ben has nothing substantive to argue but is merely emoting, again.

Ben Watkins is also merely subjectively asserting when he declares, “Vicarious Redemption” to “not make any ethical sense.”

He referred to “The notion Jesus can somehow bear the responsibility of our sin by willingly being crucified and resurrected” for which some people would be grateful rather than complaining.

He also merely asserts, “If we are genuinely responsible for our actions, then someone else cannot absolve us of that responsibility” yet, the two are not mutually exclusive so he merely posed a false dichotomy (not that there’s anything wrong with that on Atheism): we are genuinely responsible for our actions but the price to pay for them is so high that someone absolved us, not of that responsibility but of the penalty.

He concludes that subsection with two parting question—again leaving us with nothing but “My Dear Diary…”

He then comments on h, e, double hokey sticks.

In typical well within the box Atheist group-think talking-point du jour form, he asks, “Why does God’s justice demand eternal punishment for finite transgressions?” which is incoherent since in the history of humanity no one has ever even proposed that the amount of time it took to commit the crime determines the amount of time the punishment would last: can you imagine? “Your honor, it took one second for the Defendant to shoot that innocent cashier to death, so you can only sentence the Defendant to one second of prison time!”

After some rhetorical questions (are there such things as rhetorical answer?), he notes, “The Bible describes a god causing, condoning, or commanding immoral acts and attitudes” which is incoherent since it technically means God violates human mores du jour. But, of course, he’s not arguing that (he hardly bothers arguing anything, actually), his problem is that the only reply he can consistently offer is that has decided to subjectively not personally like it—period.

He claims he used to believe that “the god of the Bible cannot be immoral” and that “The Bible is a divinely inspired and generally reliable account” but that “The Bible describes a god” committing “immoral acts.”

Thus, “I could not keep all of these beliefs because they formed an inconsistent triad. If I accepted any two propositions, then I could deduce the falsity of the third. I had to give up at least one” but “had to” based on what? He doesn’t bother saying, he just rants.

He decided to believe, “The Bible is not a divinely inspired nor generally reliable account of the acts of the god of the Bible, because Christian theism is false” apparently because Ben said so oh, and, “Perhaps someone like Hitchens was right.”

He also concluded, “Christians were making some mistake when they accepted the Bible as a divinely inspired and generally reliable” but again (and again and again) he doesn’t bother telling us what would be wrong with that on his then newly found worldview. See, actually applying his newly found worldview would mean that such a complaint is discredited.

He pondered, “Perhaps these are merely historically contingent stories invented by superstitious humans as a byproduct of other cognitive mechanisms with survival advantages e.g. agency detection.” See what I mean? Even, or especially, if the Bible’s contents are the results of superstitions that would mean they were a styled Darwinian survival mechanism, the referenced “survival advantages”—and Atheist seeking to get people to reject them are damaging theists’ ability to survive. If they were a byproduct of cognitive mechanisms then they’re the accidental byproduct of the accidental laws of thermodynamics within an existence wherein there’s no universal imperative to reject the accidental byproduct of the accidental laws of thermodynamics and perhaps no possibility to reject them—even though Ben Watkins has merely asserted free will.

He refers to “competing religious beliefs” (such as Atheism) in terms of that he had pondered, “perhaps some other theistic tradition is closer to the truth e.g. Islam or Hinduism.” Now, we could go into discussing Islam and Hinduism but staying focused on Ben, note that his concern was which got “closer to the truth” while on his worldview truth is accidental, as is our ability to discern it, there’s no universal imperative to adhere to it, not to demand/expect others to adhere to it. Thus, even this was an exercise tantamount to which ice cream flavor he prefers.

He then gets into, “Widespread Religious Disagreement” even when some Atheists positively affirm God’s non-existence while others think they’re wrong for claiming to know something they can’t prove, etc., etc., etc. (and they have many, many disagreements about all sort of issues).

He noted, “I have always believed,” still?, “the best evidences for particular religious beliefs must be first-person experiences like revelations…immediate religious experiences” thus, since “I have not had any cogent religious experiences, and this fact deeply worried me.” In other words, he invented a pseudo-standard, failed to meet it, and it concerned him. While “first-person experiences like revelations” may be nice, they’re not required.

He then exposes his faulty anthropology (and faulty theology: note that all Atheists are theologians—terrible ones but theologians nevertheless) as he merely claims that, “a perfect creator with a common purpose for us” would give us a, “shared revelation of that purpose…Such an intersubjective experience would invite widespread consensus…But that is not the case.” In other words, he invented a pseudo-standard, does not find it to be the case, and so concluded the Bible isn’t reliable, God doesn’t exist, etc.

Interestingly, “Not everyone has theistic religious experiences, and most subjects of religious experience disagree about the fundamental nature, content, and significance of religious experiences” but he doesn’t bother telling us how that’s any sort of problem on his worldview.

Yet, that the case is that either God gives us all a, “shared revelation” or “everyone…disagree” is a false dichotomy since, especially applying Ben’s assertion of free will, God could give us such a revelation and people could still choose to disagree—see, he keeps failing to think consistently, he doesn’t bother applying his worldview to his worldview: he asserts something when it’s convenient and ignores it when it’s convenient.

In fact, such is the case since “he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, that they should seek God, and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us” (Acts 17:26-27) yet, “the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil” (John 3:19).

Ben Watkins states, “We can call this the problem of inconsistent revelations. These inconsistent and competing religious beliefs could not all be true. Most of them must be false. If that’s the case, then we know most people through time have, in fact, systematically deceived themselves or have been misled by some distorting influence when it comes to their religious beliefs.”

Well said, people can claim that 2+2= an infinity of numbers but only those who reply =4 are correct. Yet, on Atheism it’s not the case that “most people through time have, in fact, systematically deceived themselves…” but all of them have: 100%, since Atheists think they’ve found the one real truth (accidental as it is, on their worldview).

He also pulls another Atheist talking point in claiming, “religious beliefs [are] geographically and temporally predictable” which is a genetic logical fallacy (not that it matters on Atheism) and in the face of him being raised in a majority Christian country, by a Christian family, and yet not being a Christian: he seems to be the privileged sort who can go beyond the confines of his geography—even on a worldview according to which it matters not if religious beliefs are geographically influenced nor the rejection of them.

He refers to, “these facts” on a worldview according to which, you know it, facts are accidental, as is our ability—and you know the rest.

He then demands, “Any true religious framework,” on a worldview according to—you know the rest—“would  play an integral role in the external understanding of ourselves, our place in the world, and the life we ought to live.”

Well, any cogent worldview would have to, for example, explain key features of the world and humanity such as beauty and terror, love and hate, etc. and the Bible does that: the world and humans were created good but underwent a fall—and can be redeemed. This us unlike Atheism which implies that the world and humanity came from nothing, by nothing, to nothing, for nothing.

As for how “we ought to live” well, this is where the ethos comes in as evidence by that all people everywhere and at all times have agreed on certain basic principles and have to fight very hard, including with themselves, to violate them: one thing that seems to separate us from the animals (besides fashion faux pas) is our ability to justify our actions (viably or not).

In any case, he notes, “there is no such religious consensus” with which come the usual problems for him.

He then merely asserts, “In fact,” yeah accidental fact (if fact is what it even is), “the most widespread consensuses in science and ethics are secular” which seems to have been slightly misstated but seems to be an argumentum ad populum (not that there’s anything wrong with that—you know the rest).

But he claims that such is the case since “They make no reference to religious traditions nor do they make any use of theistic assumptions” which is fallacious since the scientific method is premised on biblical theology—even when Ben refers to “secular sciences”—and secular ethics violates the technical definition of ethics since the ethos is a reflection of God’s nature or is that nature itself.

Since he’s ranting, he jumps to another mere assertion, “God’s perfect goodness is a reason to believe theists would live significantly more moral lives than non-theists, because worshiping God would be a source of moral strength not available to non-theists.”

This is fallacious on at least two levels. Again, his anthropology is faulty since “God’s perfect goodness” may still fail to be reflected in the actions of “theists” (a broad-brush-broom painting term that’s not very helpful) may still (free will, right?) choose to not “live significantly more moral lives.” As for, “a source of moral strength not available to non-theists,” such is not the Biblical view which has God putting His laws in the hearts of us all, not just theists.

He again moves the goalpost from ethics to that, “Moral intuitions vary dramatically on important moral issues such as war, abortion, the death penalty, religious violence etc.” Such as, we must note, that on Atheism there’s nothing wrong with war, abortion, the death penalty, religious violence etc. even if individual Atheists subjectively decide to personally like or personally dislike some of them—which amounts to accidental apes accidentally being able to express subjective interpretations of accidental byproducts of neural chemistry, which is as impotent as it sounds.

He refers to, “the problem of moral disagreement” which is not a problem on Atheism and is also in keeping with the technical definition of morality which implies that there will be disagreements, by definition.

Now, we get a view of why I complained about the generic nature of the term theists in that Ben Watkins asserts, “if we assume theism is true, then it seems as if God has inconsistently or inaccurately revealed what He wants us to believe and how He expects us to act” but while all religions and Atheism contains some truths (based on what some would term general revelation, God’s laws in our hearts, etc.) the specific revelation is within the Bible—not within generic theism.

Ben hits one of Atheism’s nails on the head—only being off by a bit—in noting, “if atheism is true, then there is no disembodied mind who cares about the content of our religious beliefs nor the moral worth of characters and acts. Widespread disagreement about the nature and significance of experiences which do not correspond to a shared objective reality is not surprising if atheism is true. I concluded facts about widespread religious disagreement count in favor of atheism and against theism.”

I said, only being off by a bit because indeed, if so-then yet, if so then it’s a non-issue since Atheism provides no premise upon which to even make that into any sort of issue.

By the way, that “there is no disembodied mind who cares…” is one of Atheism’s consoling delusions. Also, as we have seen, “Widespread disagreement about the nature and significance of experiences which do not correspond to a shared objective reality is not surprising if” biblical theology is true. Thus, his conclusion that this scores a point for Atheism is a non-sequitur (not that non-sequiturs matter on Atheism, of course).

He then comments on “Special Creation and Biological Evolution” regarding, “if God might not exist, then where could we have come from?” and we come to the Atheist view that nature created us, accidentally, which is where Atheism’s Paganism comes into play, “although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things” (Romans 1:21-23).

Ben notes, “according to biological evolution, complex and conscious life forms are the gradually modified descendants of relatively simple life forms.” For one, “according to biological evolution” is a reification fallacy (not that it matters…) since biological evolution is not a person, not a being, has no mind, no volition, makes no statements, etc. Rather, he meant according to evolutionary biologists. Also, that there’s ever been any such a thing as even a “relatively simple life forms” is a myth as one single simple cell is vastly (and purposefully) complex. Ben’s just promulgating the accidental just happened of the gaps.

Ben asserts, “Human beings and all other life on Earth are the products of the long, inefficient, and inevitably cruel history of the universe since the big bang” see what I meant about Atheism making pain and suffering even worse—and also good—he even specifies, “Our experiences of pain and those of other non-human animals are systematically connected to the biological goals of survival and reproduction.”

He then decides that “We…descended from bacteria over billions of years of natural selection” which is embarrassingly outdated in terms of scientific knowledge: this is just Atheistic story telling at its worse. He’s genuinely asserting that natural selection turned some bacteria into humans and left some bacteria as is.

He then asks, “Why would a wholly good and infinitely resourceful God choose to create humans through such a long, inefficient, and inevitably cruel means?” the answer to which is that since his premise is fault there’s no reason to reply to his question. He, again, invented a scenario and expects us to play in his fantasy league.

He then pulls a stat from some uncited source and claims, “99.98% of all species which have ever lived are now extinct because all living beings are in savage competition with one another for limited resources.” Indeed, such is the case in our -post-fall world. Since he utterly misses dealing with what the Bible actually states, he rants about, “survival is the exception and extinction is the rule. If…a creator god who used biological evolution as a means to create, then we would infer an indifferent god, a tinkering god, or perhaps a malevolent god” but, again, he’s just making up fantasy scenarios, is then playing by his own rules, and comes to faulty conclusions.

Thus, he demands that, “Something like biological evolution must be true if atheism is true” which assisted in his conversion to Atheism since “I concluded facts about biological evolution counted in favor of atheism and against theism” so he faulty concluded based on accidental (pseudo) facts based on vague notions about biological evolution which have something to do with God not existing—or something.

He has a subsection on “The Problem of Evil” which is about “the inevitably cruel process of biological evolution” which supposedly, “points us towards perhaps the most serious challenge facing perfect being monotheism.”

Ironically, he notes, “Some people even suffer so horrendously they lose themselves entirely. They come to believe their lives are, on the whole, not worth living” the consistent Atheistic view of which would be: one less accidentally existing ape turning into a different form of matter.

Since Ben is either not interested in accurately representing the views he seeks to critique or is much too ignorant of them to accurately represent them, he makes the same points I’ve touched upon above such as “Why would a perfect being create a world full of so much seemly random evil…?”

Now, note also that when Atheists reject God due to evil, pain, and suffering nothing changes: there’s still evil, pain, and suffering (even if they become good) and now they don’t even have God to blame anymore.

Ben Watkins poses another syllogism that runs thusly:

“(A) An all-powerful God has the ability to prevent or eliminate all pointless evil,

and

(B) A wholly good God would be maximally motivated to prevent or eliminate pointless evils.

Therefore,

(C) Perfect being monotheism implies a God-created world would contain no pointless evil,

So it must be the case either,

(D) There has never been any pointless evil, and all seemingly pointless evil is illusory.

Or

(E) There has been at least one pointless evil. Most evil seems pointless because it is pointless.”

Let us review:

“(A) An all-powerful God has the ability to prevent or eliminate all pointless evil,

and

(B) A wholly good God would be maximally motivated to prevent or eliminate pointless evils.”

Again, Ben is either being dishonest or is expressing ignorance since the biblical view is precisely that “A wholly good God” is, not just “would be,” “maximally motivated to prevent” and also, “eliminate pointless evils”: He does one and will do the other. This gets into the free will issues again but God prevents and allows it, He prevents by stepping in on occasion and by giving us His ethos and will ultimately eliminate it by redeeming it.

“Therefore,

(C) Perfect being monotheism implies a God-created world would contain no pointless evil,”

But it underwent a fall.

That “(D) There has never been any pointless evil, and all seemingly pointless evil is illusory” may be the case in terms of what philosophers call soul building.

Now, Ben subjectively declares, “I found (D) implausible” because some evils “seem” subjectively y to him “pointlessly evil” because “we,” by which he means I, “have no reason to believe them necessary for achieving any greater good or preventing some evil equally bad or worse” which is another mere assertion” based on either claiming he’s omniscient or based on the limited currently available data.

He notes, “(E) is just what you would expect given the non-intentional process of biological evolution, the indifferent laws of nature, and finite creatures with limited altruism” about which I say: welcome to the terrible world of Atheism.

Within subsection, “The Problem of Divine Hiddenness” he wrote, “this lack of belief or absence of belief was not the result of emotional or behavioral opposition towards God” which is fascinating since emotion seems to be the one and only reason (excuse) he had expressed.

In his role as a theologian, he asserts, “A wholly good and loving God would create a world of finite persons such that anyone could enter into relationship with Him simply by trying” and, guess what, biblical theology would have it that a wholly good and loving God did create a world of finite persons such that anyone could enter into relationship with Him simply by trying—though trying may be a problematic term for some but keep in mind that Acts 17 statement I quoted above.

He then notes, “all non-theists must be resisting God in some way” about which I will redirect you to the Romans 1 quote above which also applies to, “If God is always open to relationship, then every finite person believes God exists unless they are somehow resisting such a belief.”

Ben then claims, “Former theists like myself were already in a relationship with God” but that’s no so biblically, “They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us” (1 John 2:19).

Subsection, “The Physical Dependence of Minds” has Ben Watkins noting that he, “became convinced it is much more likely perfect being monotheists have been making some mistake. All their claims about God are false” on a worldview according to which there’s nothing wrong with being mistaken nor holding to false views.

This subsection comes down to, “Some injuries to the brain make it impossible for a person to have any mental states at all…destroy various mental capacities” so that we, supposedly have, “reason to believe all mental activity probably has a physical basis in embodied brains.”

This is tantamount to demanding that if you take a baseball bat to a computer’s hardware so that it ceases to function, then that proves there’s no such thing as software.

Thus, in typical fashion, he faultily, “concluded facts about the apparent physical dependence of minds counted in favor of atheism and against theism.” Thus, he chose to believe that his accidentally constructed brain with all of its accidental neural chemistry resulted in accurate views of reality within an existence wherein there’s no universal imperative for an accidentally existing ape to adhere to accurate views of reality.

We finally come to the conclusion of Ben Watkins emotive rants wherein he just reiterates his various fallacies and admits, “Admittedly, I did not give a serious consideration of the arguments for theism here” since he began with a conclusion, “This piece is written under the assumption there are no successful cases for theism to be made.” The part with a convenient mia culpa, “Any adequate defense of atheism would need to address the leading arguments for theism which I cannot do here” but cannot do why? He doesn’t bother telling us.

Yet, this was about why he is an Atheist and, again, he appears to be an Atheist do to some or another combination of ignorance, vague generalizations in terms of Atheist talking point story telling, and fallacious illogic.

See my various books here.

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How Post-Flood Nephilim Believers Call Evil Good and Good Evil

Of all of the Bible’s Nephilim texts—all of two verses, not even texts actually—Num 13:32-33 is the mother of them all since without it, no one would even imagine concluding post-flood Nephilim from the Bible.

The common tactic of post-flood Nephilim believers is to pick up one single un-contextual verse, 13:33, run with it and turn it into a worldview-philosophy-hermeneutic.

The narrative in Num 13 relates two post-reconnoitering of the land of Canaan reports: the first (the original one) is accepted as is and the second is specified to have been an evil report, the speakers of which were rebuked by God Himself.

Every indication—from the narrative as well as the rest of the whole entire Bible—is that the original report was reliable and the evil one was not.

Here is the original report bullet-pointed so as to emphasize its points:

We came to the land to which you sent us. It flows with milk and honey, and this is its fruit.

However, the people who dwell in the land are strong

and the cities are fortified and very large.

And besides, we saw the descendants of Anak there. The Amalekites dwell in the land of the Negeb. The Hittites, the Jebusites, and the Amorites dwell in the hill country. And the Canaanites dwell by the sea, and along the Jordan.

To review:

Good land, “It flows with milk and honey, and this is its fruit.”

The report notes “strong” “people” in general.

Who live in “fortified and very large” “cities.”

A list of the various people groups they saw, “the descendants of Anak…Amalekites…Hittites…Jebusites…Amorites…Canaanites.”

A list of where the various people groups lived, “the Negeb…the hill country…by the sea…along the Jordan” with where the Anakim lived being specified earlier in the chap. “Hebron.”

Since the verse next verse has it that, “Caleb quieted the people” he discerned concern: likely because they were itinerant wilderness tent dwellers who would be confronting, “strong” “people” who live in “fortified and very large” “cities.”

We end up finding out that Joshua sided with him when Caleb said, “Let us go up at once and occupy it, for we are well able to overcome it.”

Yet, the ten other reconnoiterers dissuaded the Israelites from obeying God, “We are not able to go up against the people, for they are stronger than we are.”

After they showed themselves to be unfaithful and disloyal, we’re told that they then, “brought to the people of Israel a bad report of the land that they had spied out” and the report is related, here are the bullet-points:

The land, through which we have gone to spy it out, is a land that devours its inhabitants,

and all the people that we saw in it are of great height.

And there we saw the Nephilim

(the sons of Anak, who come from the Nephilim)

and we seemed to ourselves like grasshoppers, and so we seemed to them.

Here are the points:

The land is bad, “devours its inhabitants.”

“all the people…are of great height.”

They “saw the Nephilim” who were very, very tall.

The ESV, et al., read as if “Nephilim” refers to the Anakim but more standard renderings are that they were claiming they saw Nephilim and that Anakim are related to them.

Did you discern some problems?

The original report was of a good land but the unfaithful, disloyal spies contradict that, asserting a bad land.

The original report noted “strong” peoples, plural, and even the unfaithful, disloyal spies repeated this, “stronger,” but they suddenly embellish that by asserting that they are all “of great height.”

The original report listed the various people groups they saw but the unfaithful, disloyal spies suddenly assert they also saw Nephilim.

The original report specified where each people group they saw lived (again, with the location of the Anakim being stated earlier) but the unfaithful, disloyal spies are missing this sort of data point: they can’t seem to pinpoint where they saw Nephilim.

We may not have a full genealogy of Anakim but we know they were named after Anak who was Arba’s son (Joshua 14:15).

Genesis 6 is the other Nephilim verse and doesn’t provide a physical description of them so all we have to go on is the assertion of unfaithful, disloyal, contradictory, embellishers whom God rebuked: let’s just say no one should believe them.

In short, they proposed five assertions about which the whole entire rest of the Bible knows nothing at all.

They also contradicted Moses, Caleb, Joshua, God, and the rest of the Bible since those affirm, for instance, that Anakim, et al., were in the land but never say a single word about Nephilim whatsoever—ever.

In Num 14:6, “Joshua the son of Nun and Caleb…said to all the congregation of the people of Israel, ‘The land, which we passed through to spy it out, is an exceedingly good land…that flows with milk and honey.”

In Num 14:36 it’s noted that, “the men whom Moses sent to spy out the land, who returned and made all the congregation grumble against him by bringing up a bad report about the land—the men who brought up a bad report of the land—died by plague before the Lord.”

A lot more could be said about 13:32-33 including it’s textual issues (no reference to Anakim in the LXX version of it) but let us get to how post-flood Nephilim believers call evil good and good evil.

They take the narrative of Num 13 and the aftermath of it (such as the people being made to wander the wilderness for almost half a century) and turn it inside out, upside down, and backward.

By demanding that we actually take the evil/bad report as not only literally true but infallibly so, they imply that the original report is the faulty one.

Since the second contradicts the first then the first must be mistaken.

Since the second embellishes the first then the first must lack data—as if after seeing the most awe-inspiring beings on the planet, the first thing one would report would be, hey, check out this fruit!

They take the reliable and make it unreliable and take the unreliable and make it reliable.

Some of them care not that the survival of Nephilim though the flood contradicts Genesis 7:7, 23; Hebrews 11:7; 1 Peter 3:20; 2 Peter 2:5. Yet, some do care, so they just invent tall tales about how to get them to return thereafter: which also implies that God failed and the flood was a waste.

As my new buddy Eric Rolon told me, “we’re required to have that Nephilim connection” in Num 13:33, “absolutely required” since without that one single (utterly unreliable) verse, no one would have ever imagined post-flood Nephilim—at least not consistent with the entire Bible.

The entire post-flood Nephilim cottage industry—a very lucrative one, BTW—is literally based on demanding that accepting one verse as being infallible is required and that, actually, is part of what utterly discredits that industry—upon which many have established entire ministries, to boot.

See my various books here.

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Catholic Answers Explaining the Nephilim of Genesis

Undergoing consideration is Catholic AnswersQ&A with Tom Nash titled Explaining the “Nephilim” of Genesis.

The question was, “Where in Scripture does it talk about demons having sex with women and having offspring?”

The reply includes, “I think you’re referring to a passage in Genesis 6” which is quoted as referring to “sons of God,” “daughters of men,” and “Nephilim…mighty men that were of old, the men of renown.”

Tom Nash notes, “The Church has no official teaching on this passage, although some ancient writers,” to which I will add that this includes every early church leader that commented on it, “have speculated that the ‘sons of God’ may have been fallen angels.”

Well, there’s no may have about it actually, since such is the original, traditional, and majority view among the earliest Jews and Christians alike for many centuries: see my book On the Genesis 6 Affair’s Sons of God: Angels or Not?  A Survey of Early Jewish and Christian Commentaries Including Notes on Giants and the Nephilim.

Now, Tom Nash decided to elucidate by merely asserting, “angels do not have bodies” which is an unbiblical assertion since whenever Angels are described, they are said to look just like human males and without any indication whatsoever that such is not their ontology, that they morph/shape-shift, take on bodies, etc.

Thus, when he follows that faulty asserted premise with, “which are needed for the procreation of human children,” a line of erroneous dominos has begun to fall.

He continued by noting, “in heaven human beings live like angels and thus do not get married (Matt. 22:30),” but that verse states no such thing.

What Jesus stated there is (note the specificity of His qualifying terms), “the Angles of God in heaven” don’t marry. He spoke of the loyal ones, which is why the ones who did marry are considered sinners, having “left their first estate,” as Jude put it.

Nash then merely asserts, “the identity of the ‘sons of God’ points to mere humans” but then, pray tell, who are the sons of God in Job 38:7 who witnessed the creation of the Earth?

He follows this by asserting, “The early Church Fathers generally understood the ‘sons of God’ to be the offspring of Seth, the righteous son of Adam, whereas ‘daughters of men’ are understood be the offspring of Cain, the immoral son of Adam.” By “early,” he means centuries after the time of Jesus since such a view was virtually invented and certainly promulgated by the popularity of Augustine (354-430 AD).

My armchair psychologizing of Augustine concludes that he rejected the normative view since he came into Christianity from the Gnostic Manichean sect and sought to divest himself of all things taught by Mani—and Mani did hold to the traditional view.

Note the oddity that Nash jumped from, “Seth, the righteous son of Adam” and “the offspring of Cain, the immoral son of Adam,” a reference to two individuals and their characteristics, to “corrupt Cainite culture” which he merely asserts: he appears to condemn an entire genealogy due to Cain himself being immoral—see my article Are there a godly line of Seth and a wicked line of Cain?

Tom Nash then appeals to Scott Hahn who in his book A Father Who Keeps His Promises, noted, “‘the sons of God,’ that is, the Sethite men, were seduced by the beauty of ‘the daughters of men,’ that is, the Cainite women” but why, BTW, exclusively male Sethies and exclusively female Cainites? And why did marriages between humans become part of the premise for the flood?

The Angel view elucidates both: exclusively male sons of God since, again, Angels look just like human males and so they needed to marry exclusively female humans.

Hahn also promulgates the Sethite and Cainite view and myth with Cainites being, “the wicked” and Sethites being “the righteous” (who turned out to not be so righteous after all), “ungodly Cainite…the line of Seth, the covenant family of God.”

Due to this, Hahn asserts, “violent men were born”: whatever sense that makes.

Lastly, recall that the question asked about demons: well, now we would be dealing with entities who “do not have bodies” which is why the demon view is not the original, traditional, and majority one.

My biblical theory about what demons are is that they are fallen Angels but that there’s a mechanism whereby fallen Angels became demons—which they did after the sinned, see my article Demons Ex Machina: What Are Demons?

I reached out to Catholic Answers to see if Nash or whoever fact-checked his answer would discuss it and will update this if anyone replies.

See my various books here.

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A plea: I have to pay for server usage and have made all content on this website free and always will. I support my family on one income and do research, writing, videos, etc. as a hobby. If you can even spare $1.00 as a donation, please do so: it may not seem like much but if each person reading this would do so, even every now and then, it would add up and really, really help out. Here is my donate/paypal page.

Due to robo-spaming, I had to close the comment sections. However, you can comment on my Twitter page, on my Facebook page, or any of my other social network sites all which are available here.

Biblical Archeology answers, “Who Are the Nephilim? The mysterious beings of Genesis 6”

Ellen White—no, not the founder of Seventh Day Adventism—(Ph.D. in Hebrew Bible, University of St. Michael’s College) and formerly the senior editor at the Biblical Archaeology Society wrote the post Who Are the Nephilim? The mysterious beings of Genesis 6 on February 08, 2022.

To the question, “Who are the Nephilim?” White replies, “The giant Goliath is best known for facing the formidable but slight David and losing. Many theorists believe that Goliath was a descendant of the Nephilim of Genesis 6.”

We’re not told how many are referred to by “Many” nor who they are but they are mistaken since Nephilim didn’t make it past the flood in any way, shape, or form.

Note the usage of the vague, generic, subjective, and multi-usage modern English word “giant” without defining it. More importantly, without elucidating the usage of it in English Bibles—which is that it implies nothing whatsoever about height at all.

Goliath was a Repha and most reliably, just shy of 7 ft.

White refers to that “The Nephilim, the product of the sons of god mingling with the daughters of Adam, the great Biblical giants, ‘the fallen ones,’ the Rephaim, ‘the dead ones’—these descriptions are all applied to one group of characters found within the Hebrew Bible.”

This is too much, too fast. Technically, it was, sons of God and daughters of men even though, granted, they were daughters of Adam by extension and definition.

Now, by “giants” white implies unusual height yet, we’ve no reliable physical description of Nephilim and Rephaim were “tall” subjective to the average Israelite male who was 5.0-5.3 ft. in those days. Ergo, where were the giants?

She refers to Nephilim as the fallen ones due to the root naphal referring to fall/fallen/to cause to fall/feller, etc.

She is myopic in referring to Rephaim as the dead ones since the root repha has a wide range of meaning/definition and usage from dead to healing so she might as well have referred to them as the healed ones or the healing ones.

White tells us, “The Nephilim are known as great warriors and Biblical giants (see Ezekiel 32:27 and Numbers 13:33).”

Yet, Ezekiel does not seem to be referring to the Nephilim at all but was merely employing the root naphal and Numbers 13:33 is just part of an “evil report” by utterly unreliable guys whom God rebuked: they just made up a tall-tale.

As for that “It was once claimed that the mating of the sons of god and the daughters of Adam that resulted in the Nephilim caused the flood” White notes “It is unlikely that this interpretation is correct because Genesis 6:4 presents nothing but praise for the Nephilim and no criticism is present.”

The text does not present them as necessarily evil but mighty and well known. Yet, they are part of the premise for the flood which is why ill is read into their narrative—and likewise with their parents.

White notes, “Genesis 6, Ezekiel 32, and Numbers 13 are the only passages that mention the Nephilim by that term,” which is questionable yet, her point is to ponder, “where do the names Rephaim and ‘the dead ones’ originate?” but she told us of, “the Rephaim, ‘the dead ones’” so it’s not “names,” plural, not “and,” plural.

In any case, the primary question should be: what does the one thing have to do with the other—Nephilim and Rephaim—the biblical answer to which is: nothing whatsoever.

Having referred to “the Rephaim, ‘the dead ones’” and then “names Rephaim and ‘the dead ones,’” she then writes, “these are not two separate titles, but rather a name, Rephaim, and a meaning, ‘dead ones,’” which is still misguided and myopic.

Now, she specifies, “The Bible refers to two groups as the Rephaim. The first are dead people who have achieved an almost divine status, similar to the concept of Saints. The second is a term that is applied to races of Biblical giants. It is this second usage that is often conflated with the Nephilim.”

Well, I would more simply, and contextually, put it as that the root refer to the dead and the word refer to the people group.

The concept of, “dead people who have achieved an almost divine status” comes from Ugaritic literature according to which when a king or hero died they were called kings and heroes but after they had been dead for a while they were called Rephaim, could be summoned, etc. Yet, that Pagan theology isn’t incorporated into the Bible.

As for that Rephaim “is applied to races of Biblical giants”: they were not races nor giants. There are various a.k.a.s for Rephaim, such as Zamzummim and Emim and Anakim were a clan of that tribe (see Deut 2).

We will have to see about how Rephaim “is often conflated with the Nephilim.”

Yet, White abruptly ends the article with references to “Rephaim (Anaqim, Og, Goliath)…their purpose in each narrative is to die” and that’s about it.

Thus, I will have to take it upon myself to note that while Rephaim “is often conflated with the Nephilim” such conflations are erroneous.

See my various books here.

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Due to robo-spaming, I had to close the comment sections. However, you can comment on my Twitter page, on my Facebook page, or any of my other social network sites all which are available here.

 

A review of Mondo Gonzales’ paper, “A Brief Survey of the Pre-flood and Post-flood Origins of the Nephilim”

Gonzales’s focus is twofold: 1. “the identity of the ‘sons of God’ and the Nephilim as found in the Bible” and 2. “the exact process of the recurrence of the Nephilim as found in Numbers 13:32-33 which is long after the flood.”

I will bypass the “‘sons of God’ (Hebrew beney ha′elohim)” issue since we both take the Angel view, which is the original, traditional, and majority view among the earliest Jews and Christian commentators alike: see my book On the Genesis 6 Affair’s Sons of God: Angels or Not?

Gonzales appeals to Robert Newman who, “notes that the Septuagint [LXX]…translates the word Nephilim with the root Greek word ‘gigas.’”[1] I will be more specific and say that such is not a translation but a rendering and that also, a more normative form found the LXX is gigantes-γίγαντες. That word means “earth-born,” as in born of Gaia, which is why Gonzales goes on to note, “This word is used in ancient Greek as a reference to superhuman offspring of the goddess Gaia which is known from Greek mythology.”

Oddly, and unfortunately, “The Greek translators used this word to translate several other Biblical Hebrew words in addition to Nephilim (Rephaim, Anakim, Gibborim).” He also rightly notes, “The Greek word itself doesn’t necessarily reference men of large stature (especially in Classical Greek), but the Bible makes it quite clear that the Nephilim were known for their large or tall size (Num 13:32-33; Deut 1:28; 2:10; 9:2; Amos 2:9; 2 Sam 21:20).”

I will be more technical and state outright that the Greek word itself does not in the least bit reference men of large stature—even if it is sometimes applied to such (with “large” being a subjective term).

Now, as for “Nephilim were known for their large or tall size” (with “tall” being a subjective term):

Deut 1:28 does not refer to nor imply anything about Nephilim at all.

Deut 2:10 does not refer to nor imply anything about Nephilim at all.

Deut 9:2 does not refer to nor imply anything about Nephilim at all.

Amos 2:9 does not refer to nor imply anything about Nephilim at all.

2 Sam 21:20 does not refer to nor imply anything about Nephilim at all.

Num 13:32-33 does contain a reference to Nephilim but is an utterly unreliable statement on many levels—as this will becomes key, we will delve into it as we progress.

So, of six citations, only one is in the least bit relevant.

Gonzales writes of, “Moses writing that there were Nephilim before and after the flood (Genesis 6:4; cf. Numbers 13:33)?” and asks, “How is this possible?”

The primary answer is that Moses never wrote any such thing: Gonzales is not quoting Gen 6:4 but is paraphrasing it and actually inserted “the flood” into a verse that never refers to it. In fact, the flood is not mentioned for the very first time until a full 13 vss. later: v. 17. As for Num 13:33—we are still working our way to it.

Gonzales continues by asking more questions, “Didn’t the flood wipe out all living and breathing creatures?”: yes.

“How did the Nephilim reappear after the flood?”: they did not.

“Are the Nephilim tribes found in Moses’ day from the same original antediluvian tribes?”: no, primarily because there were no such things as “Nephilim tribes…in Moses’ day.”

Gonzales then reviews, “five proposals”:

“1) It was a local flood and all life was not destroyed…”: I will cut to the chase and say that the scope of the flood is really inconsequential to Nephilology since they either did not survive it because it was global in scope or because they lived in the flooded region—either way, they did not survive (which is why some literally just invent ways to get them to return post-flood).

As for historical views of the scope of the flood, see my book Noah’s Flood, the Deluge, Global or Local?, Vol I: A Historical Survey of Views from BC to AD.

“2) The Nephilim did not die in the universal flood because they were good swimmers or

held on to the outside of Noah’s ark”: I must say that having written circa nine books on such issues, that anyone ever proposed they were good swimmers is a new one on me.

The “held on to the outside of Noah’s ark” option is a style paraphrase mixed with confusion with a touch of anachronism. Gonzales is here referring to Midrash Bereshith Rabbah which 1. is, by definition, not a commentary nor history but sermonizing homilies from millennia after the Torah was written, and 2. tells a tall tale about King Og of Bashan who 2a. actually lived millennia post-flood and 2b. was a Repha, not a Nephil.

“3) The Nephilim went underground to come out later after the yearlong flood was over” about which Gonzales comments, “This cannot be proven wrong, but there is no textual evidence for this. It is pure conjecture.”

Some actually argue this point by strictly appealing to modern English versions, such as the King James Version (KJV) which has 6:4 as, “There were giants in the earth” as if it is implying inside of. Well, let such people make their English based arguments if that is what they have to offer since, after all, it has v. 17 as, “every thing that is in the earth shall die” so that gets them nowhere.

“4) The Nephilim genetics were passed on through one of the wives of Noah’s sons” which is a new literally invented theory with zero evidence of any sort to back it.

“5) The angelic sons of God left their domain and abode by coming down to mate with

women before the flood and received a severe punishment of chains and darkness (2 Peter 2:4;

Jude 6)…another separate group of sons of God (angelic beings) came down some time after the flood and once again took human women and produced more Nephilim” which is as unevidenced as point 4.

That they swam, held on to the ark, went underground, or were also produced post-flood all, or so it seems, imply that God failed. He seems to have meant to be rid of Nephilim but could not get the job done, missed loopholes, etc.

In short, the following texts affirm that only Noah, his wife, their sons, and their son’s wives—plus some animals—survived the flood: Genesis 7:7, 23; Hebrews 11:7; 1 Peter 3:20; and 2 Peter 2:5. Moreover, there is zero reliable indication of any return of Nephilim post-flood in any way, shape, or form.

Gonzales points out the problems with four views and notes, “One of the goals of this article is to show that the Biblical text conclusively and explicitly demonstrates that number 5 is the correct viewpoint.” Yet, there is only a one-time sin of Angels in the Bible and if Gen 6 is not recording it then, pray tell, what is, where is it? There are no others.

Gonzales references, “Nephilim (and various other tribal names)” which is when he begins backing away from specific terminology and (consciously or not) waters things down (pun intended, within the context of the flood) so as to assert that non-Nephilim were actually Nephilim.

He goes on to say they, “are the enemies that Moses and Joshua encounter” for which there is zero reliable evidence.

Gonzales gets back to that, “the text says it was ‘in those days and afterward’ (6:4)” which he now quoted and you will notice that the flood is not referenced: he seems to infer that it does by reading all the way to Num 13, actually believing v. 33, turning that one single verse into a hermeneutic, and then looping back in order to re-read (misread) Gen 6:4—which is what caused him to initially insert the flood into it in the first place.

Gonzales asserts, “many of the Nephilim survived,” after denying that they survived, “and spread throughout the land. When Moses returns after the wilderness wandering, he and the younger generation encounter the descendants of the original Nephilim” but how could they be “the descendants of the original Nephilim” if no Nephilim survived the flood in any way, shape, or form but that post-flood Nephilim, on Gonzales’s view, were birthed anew by a post-flood sin of Angels?

These are just inconsistencies in Gonzales’ paper.

Since I quoted the KJV before, I will do so again for Num 13:33, “And there we saw the giants [Nephilim], the sons of Anak, which come of the giants [Nephilim]: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.”

Gonzales comments, “the text does not say that the sons of Anak were from the original Nephilim. It simply says that they were connected to the Nephilim (Num 13:33- Hebrew preposition min is connected to the word Nephilim here and has a wide range of use).”

We will come to find that such is irrelevant.

Gonzales writes, “When Moses and the Israelites first approached the Promised Land, it was filled with Nephilim who were large and intimidating (Num 13:32-33). He taught the Israelites the true history of the stories they heard concerning the mingling of angelic beings and mankind producing hybrid offspring (Nephilim). In Genesis 6:2-4 he is reminding them that this intermingling happened before the flood and also afterward.”

We are almost to the point of tackling how and why asserting (and such is all it is) that it “was filled with Nephilim” and even that they “were large” is unevidenced.

Note that we went from wrongly paraphrasing Gen 6:4, to then rightly quoting it, but now went back to wrongly paraphrasing it.

Gonzales notes, “As they were spying out the land and observed these Nephilim offspring, they were looking at proof that what occurred before the flood had occurred again.”

He goes on to refer to the “generation who had already been introduced to the Nephilim as they spied out the land” which was the case but begs the question: introduced how, by whom, within what context, with introduced meaning what, etc.?

Gonzales’s view is that the Israelites were first introduced to Nephilim in the land and were then told about how they, “existed before the flood which they also would have known about through the various cultural and religious histories.”

Gonzales breaks down Gen 6:4 which he, “translated the Hebrew and block diagrammed the verse

into English” the portion of which I will focus on being:

“1) The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, (Main clause with main verb ‘were’)

2) and also, afterward, (Complex preposition creates adverbial subordinate clause)

3) when (Relative particle introducing subordinate clause)

4) the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, (subordinate clause)

5) and they bore children to them. (subordinate clause)”

Because he accepts Num 13:33 as being accurate and employs it as a hermeneutic, he misses the fact that Gen 6:4 tells us exactly to what days, and so after which days, it is referring:

“Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also, afterward” when? Well, “when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them.”

Now, as per v. 1, those days were “when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them” (KJV).” When that was seems unknown, but it could have been as early as when Adam and Eve’s offspring began having offspring.

Yet, in any case, “those days” is when it first began and “afterward” is after it first began but all pre-flood: they did so and continued to do so but only until the flood brought the whole affair to a full and final end (which seems to alert us as to when the sinful Angels were incarcerated).

And if one really wants to assert multiple incursions of sinful Angels, they can feel free to do so, biblically, as long as they place them in pre-flood days.

This was understanding Gen 6:4 within its own context and not (historically) traversing centuries to then loop back and applying a much later statement to a former one in an artificial manner: the text of Gen 6 spoke for itself.

Yet, Gonzales tells us, “Most scholars recognize…a reference to the days before the flood and to the days after the flood.” Well, “Most” sounds impressive yet, 51% is most but also awfully close to half and “scholars” is not exactly a citation.

He then claims, “Moses and the spies see the post flood Nephilim in the Promised Land” but there is zero indication of any such thing.

Gonzales has an odd way of taking one step forward and two steps back so that he seems to focus on Gen 6 only to jump to Num 13 and seems to focus on Num 13 only to jump back to Gen 6.

Thus, for emphasis, I will offer a few quotes of that which he next writes:

“Nephilim were on the earth before and after (the flood)…it occurred both before and afterwards…Nephilim were existing on the earth in both time periods…Nephilim were on the earth both before and after the flood…them existing on the earth in ‘those days and afterward’…Nephilim were existing on the earth both before and after the flood…Nephilim (offspring of sons of God and human women), who were on the earth before and after the flood…Nephilim (and Rephaim, et al.) tribes came to exist on the earth before and after the flood…They attempted to thwart God’s salvation historical plan by corrupting mankind before and after the flood…again after the flood and filled the land with Nephilim hybrid offspring…Nephilim/Rephaim tribes both before and after the flood…Nephilim/Rephaim/Anakim tribes still remained…”

I think we get the picture.

Now, another oft repeated picture, “The spies and the conquest generation were observing the Nephilim in the Promised Land” of which there is zero indication (even if one accepts Num 13:33 as accurate) and likewise with, “Nephilim were in the land…the spies who saw” is far too generic, as we shall see. Moreover, “large Nephilim tribes in the land…”

Now, let us dig into what Gonzales noted between all of these statements.

Gonzales never actually interacts with the narrative of Num 13, which seems to be how/why he merely picks up one single verse, v. 33, runs with it, and (mis) applies it.

Succinctly stated:

12 spies are sent into the land.

They return and note fruit.

They note a good land flowing with milk and honey.

They note “strong” peoples living in large and well-fortified cities.

They list these peoples as Anakim, Amalekites, Hittites, Jebusites, Amorites, and Canaanites.

They even pinpoint where each lived: Hebron (mentioned in v. 22), “the land of the south…the mountains…by the sea, and by the coast of Jordan.”

Caleb, with whom Joshua sides, discerns trepidation—perhaps due to itinerate tend dwellers facing the prospect of facing six groups of strong well-fortified peoples—and so encourages the Israelites: after all, God had commanded them to take the land, would be with them, etc.

The 10 discourage the Israelites noting, in part, that the various peoples are “stronger” than they. Thus, at this point they, at the very least, show themselves to be unfaithful and disloyal.

Moses then specifies that then, after the discouragement, the 10 went on to present an “evil report” which is quoted in vss. 32-33. Thus, those verses merely record what the 10 asserted—and they asserted five things about which the whole entire rest of the Bible knows nothing at all.

Here is what they said:

“The land, through which we have gone to search it, is a land that eateth up the inhabitants thereof; and all the people that we saw in it are men of a great stature. And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight” (KJV).

These are the five unbacked assertions:

  1. “The land, through which we have gone to search it, is a land that eateth up the inhabitants thereof”: this flatly contradicts the original report, which was accepted as is, that had it as a good land flowing with milk and honey—something that is reiterated many, many times in the Torah.
  2. “all the people that we saw in it are men of a great stature”: this embellishes the original report which had the peoples as strong and even their discouragement, which had them as stronger. Of those six people groups, the only contextually relevant physical description we have is that Anakim were “tall” (see a few references in Deut 2) which is subjective to the average Israelite male who in those days was 5.0-5.3 ft.
  3. “there we saw the” Nephilim: this is the one and only post-flood reference to Nephilim and it is coming from an “evil report” by unfaithful, disloyal, contradictory, embellishers whom God rebuked.
  4. “the sons of Anak, which come of the” Nephilim: the KJV’s phraseology seems a bit odd at this point but it is generally understood that they were asserting Anakim were related to Nephilim. It is generally thought that this is actually a gloss in the Masoretic since the LXX utterly lacks this assertion.

There is zero (other) indication that Anakim were related to Nephilim and certainly not a word about how any such thing would even be possible. Now, even if—beyond all reliable data—one insists on believing 10 utterly unreliable man, one could only go as far as asserting Anakim were related to Nephilim. Now, Anakim were a Rephaim subgroup so one cannot even assert that all Rephaim were related to them but only one of their subgroups.

  1. “we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight”: since Gen 6 does not physically describe Nephilim then the “evil report” is the one and only biblical physical description we have and it is utterly unreliable logically, theo-logically, ethically, textually, etc.

Moreover, commonsensically, we are supposed to believe that having witnessed the most awe inspiring beings on the planet, the spies decide to first report fruit, then the land, then its peoples, then its cities and only eventually an oh, by the way style: we saw the most awe inspiring beings on the planet.

The original report noted whom the saw: not one single word about Nephilim nor relation to them was ever stated of any of them.

The original report noted where such personages lived: the 10 were vaguely generic, they seem to be unable to pinpoint where Nephilim lived since they were just making up a “Don’t go in the woods!” type of scare-tactic, fear-mongering tall tale.

Moreover, when Moses relates this event in Deut 1, he notes the presence of Anakim in the land but utterly ignores any reference to Nephilim: he seems to be too concerned about the realities on the ground rather than the 10’s folkloric myth-making.

In short (pun intended), from the patriarchs to Moses, many people were told which people groups to expect to find living around the land and within it: not one single word about Nephilim nor relation to them was ever stated to any of them.

Gonzales asserted, “Moses wrote that God promised Abraham he would receive the land of promise (Gen 12:1-18) and so the fallen angelic sons of God sought to frustrate this plan by taking human women as wives again after the flood and filled the land with Nephilim hybrid offspring” yet, while the former part of the statement is biblical, the latter is not even hinted at anywhere in any way.

We are told of many battles and even of hand-to-hand combat: not one single word about Nephilim nor relation to them was ever stated about any of these.

Moreover, the 10 contradict Moses, Caleb, Joshua, God, and the rest of the whole entire Bible since all of these affirm, for example, the presence of Anakim in the land but never say a single word about Nephilim therein nor of anyone related to them.

Now, with that in mind, let us continue with Gonzales’s paper.

Now we can dissect, “The spies and the conquest generation were observing the Nephilim in the Promised Land”: it was not “The” 12 “spies” but only the 10 unreliable ones, they merely asserted “observing the Nephilim,” and “the conquest generation” saw no such thing anyhow rather, the 10 merely asserted that they saw them, the Israelites saw no such thing.

Thus, there is zero indication that, “Moses was providing them with how the Nephilim were in the land even though the flood had destroyed the pre-flood Nephilim” especially since there is no how even in the “evil report,” there is only an assertion that there they were—somewhere abouts.

Gonzales refers to, “descriptions of the Nephilim in Moses’ day” yet, 1. there are not (plural) “descriptions” and 2. the one and only one we have is utterly unreliable.

He notes, “They were large in stature and extremely intimidating to the spies who saw them” yet, 1. we can only conclude “They were large in stature” based on their word exclusively, 2. “extremely intimidating” were the six actual people groups on the ground, and 3. we can only conclude they “saw them” based on their word exclusively.

Gonzales asserts, “Moses writes concerning the Nephilim and the various tribes that are often used synonymously” which is yet to be established—and which is utterly unbiblical.

He tells us, “The main Nephilim tribe is connected specifically with the Anakim and the Rephaim (cf. Deut 2:11; Num 13:32-33)” yet, Deut states no such thing whatsoever, ever, and as we saw, even if one actually applies Num 13:33 they cannot get “Anakim and the Rephaim.”

He notes, “the first mention of the Nephilim and related tribes occurs in Genesis 6:4” but no such thing as, “related tribes” are referenced in 6:4.

He writes, “Moses reintroduces the Rephaim tribes in Genesis 14:5” but how could he re-introduce them when he never introduced them prior to that, especially not pre-flood?

Yet, Gonzales asserts, “Moses has already explained how the Nephilim (and Rephaim, et al.) tribes came to exist on the earth before and after the flood” yet, 1. Gonzales was merely asserting there was such a thing as “Nephilim (and Rephaim, et al.) tribes,” 2. Moses never explained how the Rephaim tribes came to exist, 3. Moses never even hinted at Nephilim tribes after the flood, and 4. Moses never even hinted at Rephaim tribes before the flood.

Gonzales wrote, “Moses informs the Israelites of his day that the Rephaim were back in the land” but no, it was not that they were “back”: back from where and/or when?

Gonzales tends to write sentences that mix biblically verifiable data with un-biblical unverifiable tall tales and then just includes a citation at the end as if the cited text(s) cover his entire statement.

For example, “Moses writes that God explains to Abraham that even though the land is full of the various tribes, his descendants would still inherit the land after four generations (Gen

15:13-21)” which is accurate.

He goes on to write, “God was going to judge and remove all these tribes from the land, but their iniquity was not yet complete (15:16)” which is accurate.

Yet, he goes on, directly, to write, “What we know from the rest of the Pentateuch is that God had planned to use His new nation of Israel to be the instrument of eradicating not only the wicked human tribes, but also the evil supernatural hybrids from the land” which is utterly unbiblical (at least he did not even attempt a citation for this one).

He mostly rightly writes, “The nation Israel chose fear instead of faith after the spies returned and reported seeing the large Nephilim tribes in the land (Num 13:32-33)” about which I say mostly rightly since such is what they chose and it was based on that “the,” 10 (actually), “spies returned and” falsely “reported seeing the large Nephilim.”

Gonzales then also merely asserts, “As they journeyed, they systematically destroyed any of the Nephilim (Amorite) tribes that they encountered (Num 21:21-26).” Now, let us put to the test what I just noted since Num 21:21-26 must refer to “Nephilim (Amorite) tribes,” right? Well, here is what the text reads:

“And Israel sent messengers unto Sihon king of the Amorites, saying, Let me pass through thy land: we will not turn into the fields, or into the vineyards; we will not drink of the waters of the well: but we will go along by the king’s high way, until we be past thy borders.

And Sihon would not suffer Israel to pass through his border: but Sihon gathered all his people together, and went out against Israel into the wilderness: and he came to Jahaz, and fought against Israel.

And Israel smote him with the edge of the sword, and possessed his land from Arnon unto Jabbok, even unto the children of Ammon: for the border of the children of Ammon was strong.

And Israel took all these cities: and Israel dwelt in all the cities of the Amorites, in Heshbon, and in all the villages thereof.

For Heshbon was the city of Sihon the king of the Amorites, who had fought against the former king of Moab, and taken all his land out of his hand, even unto Arnon.”

Did you notice a reference to Nephilim, or to Nephilim tribes, or to Amorite being an a.k.a. for Nephilim, or any such thing?

Gonzales writes, “they encountered the giant king Og who was of large stature (Deut 3:1-11)” yet, neither the cited text nor any other in the entire Bible provides us a physical description of him nor even calls him any such a thing as “tall.”

Gonzales’ summary includes, “the Pentateuch is consistent throughout as it details the origin of the pre- and post-flood occurrences of the Nephilim and the related tribes.”

Yes, “the Pentateuch is consistent” in one single verse, Gen 6:4, “as it details the origin of the pre-…flood occurrences of the Nephilim,” period.

No, “the Pentateuch” never even hints at “the origin of the pre- and post-flood occurrences of the Nephilim and the related tribes.”

He also writes, “in the book of Joshua. One of the goals and standards of success in the conquest of the land is specifically tied to the extermination of the offspring of the fallen angelic sons of God known as the Nephilim/Rephaim tribes both before and after the flood (Joshua 11:21-23; 14:12, 15; 17:15)” yet, that entire book does not even hint at any such thing whatsoever.

He bases the all-encompassing assertion, “specifically…extermination of…Nephilim/Rephaim tribes both before and after the flood” based on what he quotes for support, which is, “Then Joshua came at that time and cut off the Anakim from the hill country, from Hebron, from Debir, from Anab and from all the hill country of Judah and from all the hill country of Israel. Joshua utterly destroyed them with their cities. 22 There were no Anakim left in the land of the sons of Israel; only in Gaza, in Gath, and in Ashdod some remained” (Josh 11:21-22).”

Thus, he asserted an unbiblical compound “Nephilim/Rephaim” in general when the text only refers to Anakim, in particular.

Next, he writes of, “Nephilim/Rephaim/Anakim tribes” which “reappear in the text of Scripture centuries later in the time of David. Goliath was from Gath”: Goliath was a Gathite by the city whence he hailed, a Philistine by the regions in which he lived, one of the Anakim by the subgroup/clan to which he pertained, and a Repha by the tribe yet, he was not a Nephil nor was he of any relation to them, of course.

Gonzales specifies, “The Bible gives the final summary that David and his servants eliminated the rest of Nephilim/Anakim tribes (1 Samuel 17:4, 7; 2 Samuel 21:16-22; 1 Chronicles 20:4-8)” but the Bible does no such thing anywhere.

Overall, if one reads Gonzales’s paper without sufficient background, I am empathetic to how it may be convincing as it is engaging, interesting, and exciting.

Yet, as we have seen, in its portions relating to Nephilim, it hardly contains any accurate statements.

I pray this be taken as iron sharpening iron—which tends to lead to someone getting cut—so as to come to an accurate Bible-based Nephilology.

___________________________

Footnote [1]: Newman, Robert C. “The Ancient Exegesis of Genesis 6:2, 4” Grace Theological Journal 5 (1984), 13-37.

See my various books here.

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Timothy Yung’s “Nephilim, Og’s bed, the Defeat of the giants, and Jesus’ proclamation of victory”

I encountered a link to an article by a certain Timothy Yung which is titled: Nephilim, Og’s bed, the Defeat of the giants, and Jesus’ proclamation of victory.

Upfront, he notes, “I agree with Pastor John MacArthur’s position that the fallen angelic beings didn’t directly procreate with humans”: I covered MacArthur’s views in my book The Pastoral Nephilim and Giants.

Rather than, directly procreating, we are told, “There was a ritual in which a fallen angel/demon was invoked in a temple ceremony between two humans which produced the Nephilim.”

This assertion is the latest fad amongst pop-Nephilologists.

The premise is that in some unknown pre-flood temples, fallen angel/demon had something unspecified to do with a, “ceremony between two humans which produced the Nephilim.”

One problem with it is that there is no indication of any such thing since the key portions of the Genesis 6 affair, as I term it, are described thusly, “the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose…the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them.”

Thus, every indication is that it was directly procreation: attraction, marriage, mating, offspring.

Reference is made to the late Dr. Michael S. Heiser’s book, The Unseen Realm.

Dr. Heiser was credentialed and experienced but not infallible, his Nephilology wasn’t biblical, and he tended to create more problems than he solved—see these for examples:

Rebuttal to Dr. Michael Heiser’s “All I Want for Christmas is Another Flawed Nephilim Rebuttal”

Review of Amy Richter and Michael Heiser on four Enochian Watcher related women in Jesus’ genealogy

It is noted that Heiser noted, “ANE mythologies…include mention of a group of sages (the apkallus), possessors of great knowledge, in the period before the flood. These apkallus were divine beings… After the flood, offspring of the apkallus mated with human women and produced quasi-divine offspring.”

You can read up about apkallus in my book What Does the Bible Say About Giants and Nephilim? A Styled Giantology and Nephilology.

The MacArthur Study Bible notes, “sons of God, identified elsewhere almost exclusively as angels (Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7), saw and took wives of the human race. This produced an unnatural union which violated the God-ordained order of human marriage and procreation (Gen. 2:24).”

Three issues to note:

1) No, Job nowhere specifically refers to sons of God as Malakim/Angles but 38:7 makes it clear that they are, at the very least not human. Thus, understanding those text as referring to Angels is a very natural reading (FYI: the LXX has them as “Angelos”).

2) The quoted statement is vague since it seems to imply that, “angels…took wives of the human race” which resulted in, “procreation” between those Angels and their human wives.

3) Gen. 2:24 is not what made the unions unnatural. After all, we may say that it would be unnatural for me to marry and mate with billions of human women even though I am a human male, because I am already married to a human woman.

Since Angles look like human males, we were created, “a little lower” (Psalm 8:5) than them, and we can viably mate with them then, by definition, we are of the same basic kind.

The study Bible goes on to emphasize, “the passage puts strong emphasis on the angelic vs. human contrast. The NT places this account in sequence with other Genesis events and identifies it as involving fallen angels who indwelt men (see notes on 2 Pet. 2:4, 5; Jude 6).”

Also, “Matthew 22:30 does not necessarily negate the possibility that angels are capable of procreation, but just that they do not marry. To procreate physically, they had to possess human, males, bodies.”  

Well, Jesus’ emphasis in that verse is that He was very specifically speaking about the, “Angels of God in heaven” thus, the loyal ones: they are the ones who do not marry and are not given in marriage. That is why those who did are considered sinners, having, “left their first estate” as Jude put it.

Also, again, since Angels look like human males, there is no reason to invent an un-biblical concept about Angels who, “possess human, males, bodies.”

The study Bible notes that in 2 Peter 2:5, “Peter borrows a word from Greek mythology for hell, tartarus…a place lower than Hades”: the lowest part of the Abyss.

It is asserted that, “This apostasy of fallen angels is described in Gen. 6:1-4 as possessing men who then cohabited with women” but, again, no such thing is stated in Gen 6 nor anywhere else in the whole Bible and neither is any such a thing as Angels possessing anyone in the entire Bible—see my book What Does the Bible Say About Angels? A Styled Angelology.

With regards to, “The significance of Og’s bed” we are told the following by Timothy Yung, “When the Israelites went into the Promise Land, they were told to eliminate the giants of the land, the Rephaim and the sons of Anak.”

The vague, generic, subjective, and multi-usage modern English word giants was not defined so I will have to assume that it was meant to imply something about subjectively unusual height.

Yung does not seem to realize that the contextually Biblical manner in which to understand that sentence is, “When the Israelites went into the Promise Land, they were told to eliminate the Rephaim of the land, the Rephaim and the sons of Anak.” This is now accurate but redundant.

As for whether the Rephaim tribe and their Anakim clan were giants well, again, that is subjective and in this case, subjective to the average Israelite male who, in those days, was 5.0-5.3 ft.

Deuteronomy 3:11 is quoted, “(For only Og the king of Bashan was left of the remnant of the Rephaim. Behold, his bed was a bed of iron. Is it not in Rabbah of the Ammonites? Nine cubits was its length, and four cubits its breadth, according to the common cubit.).”

Now, 99% of pop-Nephilologists merely assert that Og was a giant with reference to the height of a man we are never told in the Bible (and about which nothing is said until folklore from millennia after the Torah). At least Dr. Heiser noted this about the bed, “Its dimensions (9×4 cubits) are precisely those of the cultic bed in the ziggurat called Etemenanki…The unusually large bed at Etemenanki was housed in ‘the house of the bed’ (bit ersi). It was the place where the god Marduk and his divine wife, Zarpanitu, met annually for ritual lovemaking the purpose of which was divine blessing upon the land.”

Thus, what is happening within the article, and those who follow its fad, is that Pagan theology is being incorporated into biblical theology. This is yet another example of how faulty Nephilology results in faulty theology—and faulty Angelology and faulty Rephaology.

Timothy Yung declares, “Og’s bed and the bed at Etemenanki were mating beds where the demonic ritual that produced the Nephilim, the Rephaim, and the other giants took place” (bold font in original).

1) Taking, “demonic” literally: it is unelucidated how disembodied demons can produce embodied beings.

2) Taking, “demonic” symbolically of something like ungodly and referring to Angles well, the sinful Angels were incarcerated (and there is only a one-time sin of Angels in the Bible) so that no Angels mated with anyone nor possessed anyone post-flood.

3) There is zero reliable indication of any Nephilim being produced post-flood.

4) There is zero indication that Rephaim were thusly produced.

5) We would have to be told to what, “the other giants” refers.

6) Any concept of any sort of post-flood Nephilim implies that God failed: He meant to be rid of them via the flood but could not get the job done, He must have missed the demonic ritual loophole, the flood was much of a waste, etc.

Hieros Gamos: Britannica is quoted to the affect that, “As ritually expressed, there are three main forms of the hieros gamos: between god and goddess (most usually symbolized by statues); between goddess and priest-king (who assumes the role of the god); and between god and priestess (who assumes the role of the goddess)” (emphasis by Yung).

So, we are getting back to the issue of Angels possessing humans since what is being emphasized is the, “priest-king (who assumes the role of the god); and between god and priestess (who assumes the role of the goddess).” Thus, perverts were just ritualistically enacting mythology.

Yet, the assertion is that Angel possessed people were doing so, which we know was not the case, and that this, in some unelucidated manner, resulted in Nephilim, Rephaim, and other whatever giants means. And if we swap Angels for demons we have the same unresolved problem.

I am willing to speculate that a lot of demon possessed people producing offspring since the flood but they do not seem to be producing Nephilim, Rephaim, and other whatever giants means.

For example, Timothy Yung tells us, “Traces of this ritual still exist in modern times. Daijosai (the Emperor’s union with the sun goddess at his ascension)” but, again, no Nephilim, Rephaim, and other whatever giants means seem to result from it: and if someone replies by sending me this still from the cheesy sci-fi movie Big Man Japan, I am going to scream into my pillow.

nephilim-big-man-japan-giant

Yung tells us, “the gods (and goddesses) of the ancient nations were fallen angelic beings/demons” which is fair enough—see my article The Apocalypse of the Hidden Hand: The Bible’s teaching on the spiritual sovereign behind the human sovereign.

Yung notes, “In Babylonian legends, some of the apkallus were said to have ‘survived’ the flood. None of the apkallus actually survived in a literal sense but they ‘survived’ in the sense that someone at Babel must have re-discovered the pre-flood ritual”: a merely asserted ritual for which there is zero pre-flood data.

But, since, “Gilgamesh is said to have descended from the divine king Lugalbanda and the Mesopotamian goddess Ninsun. He was conceived from a form of hieros gamos” then that is being incorporated into biblical theology.

Note how Timothy Yung leads the reader via bold font when Genesis 6:4 is quoted, “The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown.”

This is buttressed via an interpretation, “Nephilim were on the Earth in those days (before the flood), and also afterwards (after the flood).” Thus, a text that does not reference the flood is told to us to be referencing the flood. In fact, the flood is not even mentioned for the very first time until a full 13 vss. later: v. 17.

That is one of the most misread, misunderstood, misinterpreted, and misapplied verses in all of modern pop-Nephilology.

“The Nephilim were on the earth in those days…when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them” which as per Gen 6:1 was, “When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them.”

Thus, “The Nephilim were on the earth…also afterward” of, “when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them” which was, “When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them.”

Thus, those days refers to when they first mated, “When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them” and, “afterward” simply means just that, after they first mated, “When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them.”

They began doing it and continued doing so yet, that was all pre-flood and the flood brought it all to a full and final end—lest God failed.

Timothy Yung noted, “It is possible that over time through embellishment and exaggeration, the legend of these demigods became more and more fantasy than reality” which his exactly what the author has written as the article is a contribution to neo-theo-sci-fi-tall-tales-pop-Nephilology.

Now, Yung goes on to actually affirm, “God sent the Flood of Noah’s day as judgment against the fallen angels and the humans who had participated or allowed the Nephilim rituals to happen.” Thus, again, the flood was much of a waste and God must have missed the loophole via which they just kept on doing it post-flood.

Yung even notes, “it was an extreme violation of God’s natural order and extreme times call for extreme measures” but at the same time, Yung is implying that God’s extreme measures were not extreme enough.

We are told, “Noah preached a message of repentance to everyone including the Nephilim. Every person that heeded Noah had access to the boat and was spared” perhaps, but we are told five times who deeded and who entered the boat and Nephilim were not among them (Genesis 7:7, 23; Hebrews 11:7; 1 Peter 3:20; and 2 Peter 2:5)—but that is a-okay since they can, apparently, just come right back.

We are told, “Satan rebelling and tempting Adam and Eve is the first angelic rebellion” but how could that be the case since he’s not an Angel? He’s a Cherub?

And, “These angels in the Flood narrative are partaking in the 2nd rebellion or maybe more accurately this is the 2nd act of the rebellious angels” but it was the 1st.

Timothy Yung writes of the Israelites, “The place chosen for that nation was the Promise Land. The problem was that in the place where God had promised the Israelites there were already tribes/nations living there. Even worse, the dominant tribes of the land had mighty giants living among them. Keep in mind that the giants were being produced by demonic forces who were opposed to God and His plan to establish Israel. The conquest of Canaan was a spiritual war as much as it was a physical war.”

Yung implies subjectively unusual height by the term giants and, again, sure, Rephaim were on average subjectively unusually tall: meaning taller than 5.0-5.3 ft.

But, again, there is zero indication that any of those, “tribes/nations…giants” were, “produced by demonic forces.”

We are told that one of the ways, “Israelites were told to react to the tribes they encountered” was, “To wipe them out not just drive out…There were 2 reasons given for the conquest of the Canaan. The land was promised to Abraham’s descendants (Genesis 15:18-21). The people who were living in those lands were defiling the land (Genesis 15:14-16, Leviticus 18). All the acts forbidden in Lev. 18 were common practices in the nations.”

Deut 2 is quoted, the key portions of which are, “Emim…a people…tall as the Anakim. They were also regarded as giants” meaning Rephaim, “like the Anakim…a land of giants” meaning Rephaim, “giants” meaning Rephaim, “formerly dwelt there. But the Ammonites call them Zamzummim, a people as great and numerous and tall as the Anakim.”

Thus, there were various a.k.a. for Rephaim and, again, they were taller than 5.0-5.3 ft.

The Ancient Faith blog is quoted via their Here There Be Giants article of which the most relevant portions are (emphasis by Timothy Yung), “In Numbers 13, 12 spies are sent to scout out…The spies return and report that they have seen the ‘Anakim’ in the land, in the south, near Hebron, and that the ‘Anakim’ are Nephilim (Num 13:22, 28, 33).”

Let us pause here since the specific claim is that “12 spies…The spies…have seen…that the ‘Anakim’ are Nephilim” but that is not the case, it is too generic. Twelve were sent, ten asserting as much, the ten utterly unreliable ones who presented an “evil report” wherein they actually made five assertions, the ten who were rebuked by God.

Continuing, “This news causes most of the spies, and the majority of the people, to refuse to enter the land for fear of the ‘Anakim.’

Pausing again, the “most…spies” line regards the ten. Yet, stating, “This news causes most of the spies…to refuse to enter the land” is anachronistic. The fake-news was concocted by the most thus, it was not news that caused them to refuse, they were the ones who invented a fear-mongering scare-tactic tall-tale which caused the refusal of the Israelites (sans Caleb and Joshua).

As for, “fear of the ‘Anakim’” well, that is a can of worms which involves that the most traditional understanding is that they asserted Nephilim were related to Anakim. They also asserted that Nephilim were very, very tall but since it is an unreliable evil report form unreliable guys whom God rebuked then we actually do not have a reliable physical description of them.

Such is why after years of asserting Nephilim were giants, neo-theo-sci-fi-tall-tales-pop-Nephilologist Gary Wayne had to admit he does not know how big they were—but only after I asked him about that, and he went on to say he will keep asserting they were giants. What sense does it make to refer to the height of someone who’s height you do not know? Watch it unfold here.

Lastly, Anakim are not mentioned at all in the LXX version of the Num 13:33 evil report.

Continuing on with Timothy Yung’s current theme, “in some cities and locations, God commands complete and total destruction of the residentsthose places where total destruction is mandated are the places in which the ‘Anakim’ dwell, while those where ‘Anakim’ have not been cited are spared total annihilationJoshua had cut off all the ‘Anakim’ from the land and had devoted their cities to destruction (v. 21).  We are told in verse 22 that the only ‘Anakim’ who survived judgment at the hands of Israel had done so by fleeing to three Philistine cities, Gaza, Gath, and Ashdod. Goliath, the giant” referring to Goliath having been a Repha, “slain by the Prophet David, came to oppose Israel from Gath (1 Sam 17), marking him out as one of these surviving ‘Anakim’” since he was of the Anakim clan of the Rephaim tribe.

We are told, “The text of Numbers, Deuteronomy, and Joshua do not describe a ‘holy war’ or genocide directed at a particular ethnicity of human beings, but…against his [God’s] spiritual enemies, demonic powers that had come to dominate the region of Canaan and the Transjordan” well, but humans got cough in the middle, right?—more on this to come.

 Now, this point by Yung will become important, “even in cities that were to be destroyed there were people who were spared. Rahab the prostitute is in the genealogy of David and Jesus. Uriah the Hittite (the husband of Bathsheba) was one of David’s mighty men and descended from one of the tribes the Israelites were told to wipe out.”

Timothy Yung goes as far as, anachronistically, claiming, “Even a Nephilim in the Old Testament could join the Israelite community through circumision and if a Nephilim exists today they can join the Christian community by baptism.”

Yet, “The reason why we don’t see Nephilim/ giants run amok today is that they were wiped out not just in Canaan but in the other places they resided.”

Again, “The reason why we don’t see Nephilim/ giants run amok today is that they were wiped” via the flood.

We are told of that, “Ancient Greek mythology talks about  a time period called the Gigantomachy where the giants were killed off…In pre-Christian Ireland there were legends about…giants of the land…the Epic of Gilgamesh ,the other ancient mythologies…giants in ancient mythology are described as being impossibly tall…”

The point being, “the issue wasn’t that the giants were tall but that the giants were being produced by the forces of the demonic realm” which still remains a mere and anachronistic assertion.

Timothy Yung then focuses on that, “The demonic spirits/ fallen angels who participated in the Nephilim producing ritual were sent to everlasting chains in the Abyss/Tartarus…Jesus’ spirit went to the realm of the dead. Jesus descended into Sheol/Hades…to proclaim His victory over the demonic forces, including the fallen angels who were in prison for participating in creating the Nephilim.”

I will say fair enough about that statement since it is based on, “Christ…being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, because they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water” (1 Peter 3:18-20).

The article ends with a sermonette about how nothing can swart God’s plan of salvation, etc.

Now, this article was interesting in that while is fallaciously asserted that Israelites were surrounded by non-human giants, Timothy Yung decided they could be saved. Pop-Nephilologists generally appeal to tall-tales about post-flood non-human giants in order to apologize of the conquering text. Yet, God told us many times why He commanded such things and never said a single word about non-human beings—I included an entire chapter just on this point in my book What Does the Bible Say About Giants and Nephilim?

 

See my various books here.

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