I once wrote the following to popularizer of pop-research Zen Garcia:
I would like to approach you in the spirit of brotherhood as common followers of Yehoshua ha Mashiach. I would like to bring your attention to a couple of theological issues where I think you have gone astray.
If you are agreeable I will write again.
Yehoshua ha Mashiach is how Zen refers to Jesus. Of course, who knows who and or what Zen thinks Jesus might be. He may use the term and/or name but his overall theology is hardly biblical in the least bit.
He was agreeable and so I wrote:
I want to note that I totally get your interest in extra-biblical texts as a source of information. However, you seem to have gone beyond gleaning those texts for info and have decided that the Bible, the cannon, is open and you can place into it that which fits into your views. Yet, the specific of that which I want to discuss pertain to statements you made whilst being interviewed on a radio show by unbelievers. I will repeat your statements just to see if you still hold to them because if you do not then there is no need for me to reply to them. Adam and Eve lived in Eden which was in the third heaven and only came to live on Earth after the fall. Likewise, they did not inhabit physical bodies until after the fall. I thought that there was something else along these lines but I cannot seem to recall on what show you stated such things.
Do you still hold to these views?
In fact, this discussion took place in 2012 AD and by now, sadly, Zen Garcia has gone off the deep end’s deep end.
He succinctly replied thusly:
Yes I’ve said this many times… [ellipses in original]
Thus, I replied:
In that case; do you consider those views to be Biblical? Are they extra-biblical? Are they extra-biblical and in harmony with the Bible or extra-biblical and contradictory to the Bible? Or…other? [ellipses in my original]
He replied thusly:
Why the labels yes it’s biblical… and yes it’s extra-biblical, what’s the point? [ellipses in original]
As to the point about labels; I am somewhat empathetic since, for example, if I say “I am a Christian” to some people this means mainstream 20th century Republican, big haired televangelists, the Crusades, etc.
However, labels are not illegitimate. For example, something can be un-, non- or extra-biblical but not necessarily be anti-biblical. So, at this point, Zen Garcia affirms that his views on Adam and Eve are both biblical and also extra-biblical.
Here is my reply:
I was just offering options. So, if it is book, chapter verse biblical can you send me the citations if not also the quotations?
Sadly, Zen offered a typical marketing answer:
My whole book is about this with citation and verse have you read it?
My reply was:
I have not (actually, I just started reading Dr. Joye’s “Eden” [which I reviewed here]) and I more than understand wanting to reference a details elucidation.
Thus, I will simply note the following:
You claim that the Eden was in the third heaven and not on Earth.
Genesis 2 states, “Thus the heavens and the earth were finished…These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens, and every plant of the field before it was in the earth”—four references to the earth.
Yet, “there was not a man to till the ground” of the earth “But there went up a mist from the earth.”
Then, “the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground” of the earth “And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden” on earth “and there he put the man whom he had formed,” Adam was put “there” in the garden on the earth.
“out of the ground” of the earth “made the Lord God to grow every tree…the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil” the garden on earth.
“And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads” and it is specified that this and that portion of land contains gold, bdellium, onyx, etc.
“And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden” which contextually is on earth.
And on it goes.
As for Adam and Eve not having physical bodies until after the fall:
“the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground” so that he was made of, at this point, simply dust and yet, physical dust.
“And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field,” etc. Since both Adam and animals were formed from the ground then if he was not physical neither were they.
“And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof” so Adam had a physical body out of which God took a physical rib and close up physical flesh.
“And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man” so Eve is made of the same stuff as Adam: if he was not physical then neither was she.
“And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man” thus far we learned that Adam was made of the dust of the earth, had body with a rib in it which was enclosed in flesh. Now, we learn that he had bones as well.
“…they shall be one flesh. And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed” their physical bodies were uncovered.
This is why I asked whether you considered your views biblical or not because it seems very clear that biblically; Adam and Eve lived on earth and had physical bodies before the fall.
Case closed, right? Anything extra-biblical to which a Bible believer would appeal must no contradict the Bible. That is the difference between appealing to extra-biblical text for something like more historical or cultural context, on the one hand, and claiming that (a much less historically well attested) an extra-biblical text can actually contradict and so correct the Bible.
Now, Zen’s reply to my simply quoting and citing God’s holy word, the Bible, he replied:
You base your entire theology on just that, let’s just agree to disagree, you have not even read my work and I’m not going to argue with you I’ve laid my work out in book form for all to read. Read it before judging whether you think I’m wrong or right.
He then replied again simply stating, “do you know about predestination and preexistence?”
Even his book covers are inaccurate as, biblically, Angles do
not have wings (Cherubim and Seraphim do but they are not Angles)
Now, at this point note that he utterly dismisses the Bible’s clear statements on this issue as “just that” in apparent comparison to his appeal to all and any sort of apocryphal text, Gnostic writing, etc. dating from who cares when and back by who cares how few manuscripts.
His book would tell me how he goes about ignoring the Bible, giving authority to apocrypha and how he dismisses the fact that he is contradicting the Bible. In fact, I do not need to “Read it before judging whether you think I’m wrong or right” since I can very easily discern and prove that he is wrong and is contradicting the Bible on very, very clear teachings.
My reply was thusly:
Brother, how about one topic at a time?
We are not discussing my “entire theology” but were discussing whether claiming that Adam and Eve did not live on earth and did not have physical bodies before the fall lines up with or contradicts the fact that the Bible states that they did live on earth and did have physical bodies before the fall.
Zen Garcia’s reply was:
This question cannot be answered unless one looks at all the evidence which for those that only want to include the kjv and disclude everything else, they will not see the full answer. Please just answer this question as I answered yours do you know about pre-existence and predestination?
Do you see how it works now? By “all the evidence” he means anything written by anyone at any time regardless of sect, purpose, historical reliability, manuscript backing, etc. Note also that he presupposed that I am rejecting his apocryphal contradiction of the Bible because I (and presumably anyone who likewise disagrees with him on this) rely solely on the KJV which I do not.
Note Zen’s appeal which is that he, yes he, has “the full answer”—even if and especially when he contradicts the Bible. In this way, he can play mainstream church outcast, victim, hero, etc.
He had immediately followed with another comment:
There is so much available out there that must be put together in my opinion. I will answer you more on air tonight easier than typing.
Well, on his show he merely made more generic references such as the above and thus answered nothing as it was just another iteration of read my book.
Here is my reply:
I actually consider your attempts to make sense of some very difficult issues quite admirable which is actually why I reached out to you as a brother in the first place. I am just not sure how, exactly, you are discerning when you research the “so much available out there” and whether or not it really “must be put together.” Pre-existence is something that I do not see in the Bible. As for predestination; that is something into which I have not looked too much as of yet. I have some “Calvinist” and some “Arminian” friends and hear them both out. Saved by grace, through faith and not works: indeed.
I will download “Brotherhood of Darkness” and listen to it this week.
“Brotherhood of Darkness” was the title of the time wasting generic show.
Zen Garcia replied:
The reason I asked you about preexistence and predestination is because these are biblical concepts based on only the kjv that most kjv only people don’t even know about. So for you to contend that I am wrong about the fall from paradise and your trying to base your argument on the kjv only when you don’t even know about pre-existence and predestination just verifies to me that it’s a waste of my time to go there when you don’t even know about some of the basic secrets of the kjv.
Christ said how can I teach you the things of heaven when you can’t understand the things of the earth. I can’t spend a lot of time trying to convince others as to the relevancy of my work, I don’t have that kind of time nor the effort for such pursuits. If I weren’t disabled and if it did not take great effort for me to type back replies I might consider otherwise but as of now, I can only focus on helping those that are ready for the information.
Sort of like don’t throw the pearls before the swine. We can just agree to disagree but I won’t spend a lot of time arguing or trying to convince others whether Cain was a child of the devil or whether the fallen angels really did mate with the daughters of man, I don’t have that kind of time.
Here is my reply:
Sadly, you are jumping to various conclusions. I am not certain why you are taking up KJV only issues with me as I do not hold to that position and never have. How did you even ever get such an idea about me? Also, I specified that I wanted to discuss Eden in the third heaven and Adam and Eve being non physical before the fall. Now you are bringing up other issue such as predestination, preexistence, that Cain was a child of the devil and whether the fallen angels really did mate with the daughters of man. Worse of all, I approach you as a brother but you call me swine.
I love you brother!
At this point I must note that Zen has gone so far out and away from anything that could be considered biblical that I am not even certain that I could consider him as a brother in the LORD.
For example, he holds to the serpent seed of Satan theory which claims that Eve had sex with Satan, that Cain is Satan’s literal son and that Cain’s descendants carry Satanic genetics—see my serpent seed of Satan section. He is teaching the “Soul and Angel Fall THEORY” which deals the “theory of soul reincarnation and how it applies to our divine election from Father God.” From what I understand, he claims that there was a pre-Adamic race and that humans came about when a female demigod tossed a planet at the Earth. The Earth spins due to a collision with that planet and Earth ended up close enough to the Sun so as to sprout life as we know it today. He has stated that we are here to bring “dharma” which is a Hindu concept and much, much, much more.
I once contacted the above referenced Dr. Joye Jeffries Pugh in order to relate these things to her and she was very concerned. I did so because I know that they are acquainted to some degree having done an interview together (even though Dr. Pugh has some theological problems of her own such as the serpent seed of Satan theory).
His kind reply was “I love you to brother and I did not call you swine do not read into the reference. I just meant that we are in different places which is fine we can still honor each other for where we are” also “I appreciate the fellowship and your willingness to ask questions, I just often find myself repeating things over and over and sometimes it just gets a little tedious.” Well, I can imagine but the reason people have him dealing with the same issues time and again is that they can very easily see that he is mistaken.
Well, that was about it for that discussion. For the details on the Adam and Eve light beings not from Earth, see my Were Adam and Eve beings of light?
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