When and why they became Atheists – Hoi Polloi Atheists, 8

Herein we will consider when and why certain personages became Atheists. We will parse these into Statistics, Influential Atheists, Ex-Catholics, Ex-Hindus and Hoi Polloi Atheists. As of now, I list the tales of 107 Atheists. You can find them all at the When and Why They Became Atheists Project page.

These examples are taken from Quora.

Jennifer Hancock:
Refers to herself as a “Humanist” who was “raised agnostic with Humanist values.”

Main points:
17 yrs old.

This was a one sentence statement to the effect of that at 17, she underwent “a 2 week existential depression. Realized that I could not conceive of an evolutionary benefit to a transcendent soul.” Of course, I would agree with Richard Dawkins who would call this an argument from incredulity as that which Jennifer could not conceive is purely subjective. Also, note that odd attempt at combining “evolutionary benefit” and “a transcendent soul.” She concludes that there is not transcendent soul but why not conclude that there is no evolution (in the worldview-philosophy sense which is called Darwinism)? Well, if there is a transcendent soul then we do not even get started or keep going without it so that it is an evolutionary benefit, in a manner of speaking.

With this in mind, let us discern that to which she is getting which is that beginning with a premise of that which is and is not an evolutionary benefit, “Without a transcendent soul” which she merely asserts, “the existence or non-existence of god is irrelevant [sic.].” Finally, she notes “I acknowledged to myself that no, I didn’t really believe such beings exist and I got on with my life.”

So via a very, very confused epistemology, she applied a theory which is supposed to be about biological evolution to theology and concluded that there is no soul and therefore, no God.

Will Richardson:
He writes, “faithless since 2008” and/but also “I was from the beginning, and I am now, an atheist.”

Will states that he:

…rejected agnosticism because I felt it was good to make a stand one way or another based on what I thought was the case, even knowing that I could be wrong. I cannot “know” that there is not a god of some sort; instead I choose to make an imperfect inference based on my own experience and what I know about the universe. Shrugging one’s shoulders strikes me as insubstantial, even if it is admirable in its rigid rationality.

He refers to concluding Atheism, even if he “cannot ‘know’ that there is not a god of some sort” and yet, notes that he is a “Richard Dawkins fan” which means that he is being fed on misinformation. For example, Dawkins’ view as to how the universe came about is to appeal to “luck,” see here.

From what would seem as Atheist scientism in the guise of science, he notes, “I became better educated about emergent phenomena. I realized that there didn’t need to be a god” which seems to means that he believes in the it just happened of the gaps.

He also wrote, “Finally, I asked myself what the greater preponderance of the evidence indicated (arks? whales swallowing people?).” But what does preponderance of the evidence have to do with arks and whales swallowing people? I suppose we are to infer that it is all too preposterous (that people build boats and that animals swallow things) and move on.

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Keith Wilcox:
He wrote one paragraph which mostly deals with how his friends reacted to his newfound Atheism.

Main points: No age given.

He simply wrote, “I didn’t come out. I just stopped participating in superstitious bs” but what is of interest is that for Atheists, of course Atheism is a worldview and Keith notes that Atheism was his “new perspective on life” even though from what pop-Atheists claim, it is merely one view on one issue: God’s existence.

Baqer Mamouri:
“I was born in a very religious family in Qom, Iran…My transformation from a religious person to non-religious person did not took over night. It occupied my mind for a decade.”

Main points:
No age given.

Some stereotypical themes are that Baqer’s “father was strict…strict father” yet, also “relatively open minded and educated.”

The home library included:

…a large variety of books, from “Marriage and Morals” by Bertrand Russel and “The Blind Owl” written by an atheist nihilistic writer named Sadegh Hedayat…I learned to question all my beliefs through reading “Totem and Taboo” written by Sigmund Freud. It was not the content of the book that matters but rather the way of questions that Freud proposed and the angle that he looks to the religion was devastating for me.

Interestingly, Freud, who is largely discredited on such topics, merely applied Darwinism to humanity and merely asserted that God was an imaginary father figure to which people turned for comfort. This was based on his worldview-philosophy alone, of course.

Baqer notes, “The fashion of the day in Iran was religion. So it influenced me through family, society and government” so that it was more of a social club issue than a personal commitment of relationship.

Dana Fletcher: Refers to herself as a Pagan “I wouldn’t call myself an Atheist, but I don’t believe in any religion or god…pray to whomever…I view nature as ‘God.’”

Her main themes are “I was a Jehovah’s Witness for quite some time” and “But, like most major religions, it was incredibly misogynistic.”

Main points:
Is currently 19 yrs and implies a recent de-conversion, as some term it.

I have argued that Atheism is neo-Pagan so this comes as no surprise, see here.

Well, Jehovah’s Witnesses is a pseudo-Christian cult (see here) in the theological and psychological sense.

Thus, they may have been “incredibly misogynistic” but the Bible is not. Dana notes that “Christianity* seems to think that I, a woman, should submit to her husband and bear his children” which is like stating that a recipe for cookies is that one should open a bag of flour and make cookies. Obviously, this is leaving out a lot. Moreover, upon what basis does she condemn misogynism? She does not say but merely condemn at, emotive, will.
The asterisk at “Christianity*” is elucidate thusly, “* When I mention Christianity, I’m not branding all Christians. I’m sure some are very different than others, but I am speaking for the religion as a whole.” So, not branding all Christians but branding the religion as a whole.

She tells a long tale of attempting to deal with Jehovah’s Witnesses’ psychological cultic nature.
She wanted to travel in an eat, pray, love manner but “Christianity kind of encourages families.”
She wanted to become a performing artist or a PhD in music but “Jehovah’s Witnesses, as sincere as they are, don’t encourage higher education.”

She notes, “I left the faith because I don’t want to live life in a bubble.”

Ajas Mohamed:
Claims to be an “Ex-Muslim Atheist” and “Bipolar I.”

For some reason, Ajas noted, “I would have abandoned any religion I was raised to believe in” well, it is a good point that being raise to believe certain things is the worse reason to believe them—including and especially evolution, Atheism, etc.

Main points:
Implies circa 20 yrs old.

He seems to appeal to the stereotypical Atheist logical genetic fallacy by writing, “By sheer chance, I happened to be born in a muslim family.”

The story progresses thusly:

My family wasn’t very religious then, we rarely prayed…I turned 16, my parents went to Mecca to perform Hajj. They came back as different persons. Our home, everyone in it, became more religious…I became a devout Muslim…It gradually became a burden…I was moody and gloomy most of my late teenage…18-19 years old…moodiness gave way to depression…

He was eventually diagnosed with Bipolar I.

Now, one main theme is that “From the home library, I had already dug some materials about Science, embryology, heliocentrism in Quran (Maurice Bucaille, Zakir Naik et al.)…Evolution was anti-god propaganda” and this would be part of his faith’s downfall, not surprisingly as we shall see.

At 20 yrs old he “joined Atheist vs. Theist” cyber community and “saw atheists refuting…scientific stuff mentioned in Qur’an are either not scientific or it was already discovered by Greek thinkers centuries ago.” Indeed, this is not hard to do, see my section on Islam and The Quran & the Bible in the Light of History & Science by William F. Campbell.

One way that Ajas went wrong is to affirm the Qur’an’s lack of scientific accuracy and apply to that to anything and everything not stated by, say, Dawkins, as we shall see.

He states that a friend, “talked about evolution and why people believe in religion and why scientific method is the only way of knowing” but that is the end of the sentence and, apparently, neither Ajas nor his friend, stated just what the scientific method is the only way of knowing. It was a tool designed for a certain job only thus, it is the best at what it was designed to do and utterly useless for anything else. As Charles Fort rightly noted, “Science is a turtle that says that its own shell encloses all things” and it appears that Ajas did not follow his friend down a path towards science but towards scientism. His friend asked him, “If god’s existence can’t be proved scientifically, how can you be so sure? Why do you assume that universe is designed? If god is outside physical reality, why bother much? Have you ever thought about the possibility that god doesn’t exist? Maybe you’re wrong.”

The scientific method was designed by Bible believers to explore the material, natural, physical realm. Within the Islamic context Allah is immaterial, supernatural and non-physical so the scientific method is not the right tool for that particular job. Thus, Ajas’ friend knew not of what he spoke and Ajas should have known better. Now, why assume that universe is designed? Because it is fine-tuned and random accidental explosions have never been observed to produce fine tuning but only a fine mess.

In the end, Ajas “read extensively on the theory of Evolution and it was mind-blowing! I understood why believers oppose it. I read God Delusion by Richard Dawkins and it was the final nail in my god’s coffin.” Well, considering that he was reading Dawkins who knows to what he thinks evolution applies, what it is, how he defines it, etc. For example, if one views evolution merely as change over time which occurs to already existing organisms then what, pray tell, has this to do with God’s existence?

Dawkins claiming that believer would pick up his book and become Atheists by the time they put it down and in Ajas’ case, it seems to have worked. However, when the book was picked apart for being logically, theologically, scientifically and historically erroneous on various points, he claimed that the book was meant to be “funny” and “amusing,” see here.

And in the end, he leaves us with the glories of Atheism, “I acknowledged the insignificance of human life in this vast universe.”

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Cherubim & Seraphim in Book of Enoch & the Book of Adam

Herein we continue, from part 1, considering Cherubim and Seraphim in text generally termed the Apocrypha, Deutero Canonical, Pseudepigrapha, Gnostic Texts, etc. (see my article on the Apocrypha here). The fuller complete result consists of quotations of those sections within the text that refer to Angels, Cherubim, Seraphim, Devil, Satan, demons, serpent and dragon. The point is not to elucidate these references but to provide relevant partial quotations and citations. See my section on Angels in general and in apocryphal texts here.

Cherubim & Seraphim in 1 Enoch aka Ethiopic Apocalypse of Enoch, 2 Enoch aka Slavonic Book of the Secrets of Enoch and The Book of Adam.

1 Enoch aka Ethiopic Apocalypse of Enoch – 1st to 2nd century AD
14, XIV:11, 18 Its ceiling was like the path of the stars and the lightnings, and between them were fiery Cherubim, and their heaven was (clear as) water…And I looked and saw therein a lofty throne: its appearance was as crystal, and the wheels thereof as the shining sun, and there was the vision of Cherubim.

20, XX:7 Gabriel, one of the holy Angels, who is over Paradise and the serpents and the Cherubim.

61, LXI:10 And He will summon all the host of the heavens, and all the holy ones above, and the host of God, the Cherubic, Seraphin and Ophannin, and all the Angels of power, and all the Angels of principalities, and the Elect One, and the other powers on the Earth (and) over the water.

71, LXXI:7 And round about were Seraphin, Cherubic, and Ophannin: And these are they who sleep not and guard the throne of His glory.

2 Enoch aka Slavonic Book of the Secrets of Enoch – late 1st century AD
20, XX:1 And those two men lifted me up thence on to the seventh heaven, and I saw there a very great light, and fiery troops of great Archangels, incorporeal forces, and dominions, orders and governments, Cherubim and seraphim, thrones and many-eyed ones.

21, XXI:1 And the Cherubim and seraphim standing about the throne, the six-winged and many-eyed ones do not depart, standing before the Lord’s face doing his will, and cover his whole throne, singing with gentle voice before the Lord’s face: Holy, holy, holy, Lord Ruler of Sabaoth, heavens and Earth are full of Your glory.

22, XXII:3 I cannot tell the quantity of his many instructions, and various voices, the Lord’s throne (is) very great and not made with hands, nor the quantity of those standing round him, troops of Cherubim and seraphim, nor their incessant singing, nor his immutable beauty, and who shall tell of the ineffable greatness of his glory.

The Book of Adam
The citations are as per J.P. Mahe’s translation from the Georgian original.

12.1 …the devil told Adam, “…My wings were more numerous than those of the Cherubim, and I concealed myself under them.

[44]19.2 And he told me, ‘Say: I swear by the plants of paradise and by the Cherubim upon whom sits the Father and (upon which) he descends to paradise, that if I eat and know it all, I will not be jealous but will give of it also to Adam.”

[44]22.3 And God came to paradise sitting upon the Cherubim and the Angels were singing hymns before him.

[44]28.3 I have posted burning Cherubim and a turning sword to keep it from you, lest you should taste it and become immortal and boast saying, ‘I shall not die ever’; and you will conduct the fight which the enemy has conducted against you.

[45]32.1-2 Then Eve…said, “…I have sinned before the Cherubim…”

[47]38.3 And behold, the Lord of Sabaoth rose upon the winds of the Cherubim.

[45]33.3 And when they had arrived (at the place) where the father was, the chariot stopped and the Seraphim stood between him and the chariot(s).

[47]37.3-4 And when the Angels had said these words, one of the six-winged Seraphim was sent towards him (Adam). He took Adam to the lake of (A)cheron, and he dipped him in it three times.

In the next segment, we will consider Second Treatise of the Great Seth, Testament of Abraham, The Apocalypse of Abraham and Word and Revelation of Esdras aka Greek Apocalypse of Ezra.

When and why they became Atheists – Hoi Polloi Atheists, 6

Herein we will consider when and why certain personages became Atheists. We will parse these into Statistics, Influential Atheists, Ex-Catholics, Ex-Hindus and Hoi Polloi Atheists. As of now, I list the tales of 107 Atheists. You can find them all at the When and Why They Became Atheists Project page.

These examples are taken from Quora.

Robin Green:
This one is as succinct as it is illogical and stereotypical:

As a child, realising that there were many other religions out there in the world made me think that it was unlikely that I just happened to have been born into the “right” culture to have been educated in the “one true religion” – and made me realise that people mostly believed in religion because they’d been told to believe in it, rather than for any good reason.

Main points: No age given.

We have encountered this one numerous times within this survey and it is merely a classic example of a logical generic fallacy. Note also that Atheists will make such statements but then when they want to boast about, by golly, just how many Atheists there are in the world they appeal to majority Atheist countries such as Sweden. They fail to note that when they do so they are, suddenly, favoring the fact that all of those Atheists just happened to have been born into the “right” culture to have been educated in the “one true worldview-philosophy” and they do not care that those Atheists mostly believed in Atheism because they have been told to believe in it, rather than for any good reason.

Jennifer Zilliac:
She notes that she is “Anti-racism” and became an Atheist via a “fascinating process.” She has a “father who was (and is) an atheist” but does not even mention a mother.

Main points:
No age given but sounds like she just followed in daddy’s footsteps.

We have a Catholicism leading to Atheism again as she was “baptized in a Catholic church” and yet, to try to gain favor with my Catholic step family” and also attended “Santa Clara University — a Jesuit institution.” She notes that “the results in terms of building a framework in my mind in which God monitors all my thoughts and watches everything I do and judges me constantly were top-notch.”
Well, I do not know how fascinating her story is but this is where it gets interesting. You can discern the good old’ Catholic guilt creeping in as for some, God monitoring all our thoughts, watching everything we do and judging us is a relief as since we have a relationship with Him we know that he loves us, guides us, judges us more fairly than any human ever could and does with a mind towards grace.

She wrote that “I decided that if there was a God, I couldn’t respect him based on my values,” she is “Anti-racism” and notes that “It’s good to figure out what is right and what is wrong based on experience.”
Note another stereotypical theme: the Atheist declares themselves to be more moral than thou with the thou being God. Interestingly, she did not like the idea of God judging her but she does not mind judging God. Of course, in doing so, she sets herself up as God’s judge and thus, sets herself up as God’s god. This is another example of how Atheism leads to auto-self-deification.

In an Atheist universe there is no moral code, moral law like there are laws of thermodynamics. In such a universe there are Darwinian survival mechanisms and there are rules that humans invented (and perhaps the latter derived from the former). Thus, it may sound “good” and be a “good” thing that she is “Anti-racism” but being such is merely a personal preference, based on personal preference, etc.
In fact, “It’s good to figure out what is right and what is wrong based on experience” and Atheist evolutionists did, indeed, figure out what is “right” and what is “wrong” based on experience and that experience, based on a Darwinian worldview-philosophy, lead them to conclude that there were various human “races,” that some were more evolved than others and that the more fit could do away with the less fit. Thus, in a mere few decades, Atheists mass murdered some 200 million humans whom they saw, via their subjective experience, were useless eaters.

She notes that “We can no more understand the infinite nature of the universe than an ant can understand the nature of human beings” and yet, “Slowly, I had to become okay with that. And I did. And I am. It’s okay to not know.” Lastly, she wrote, “My neural pathways never have to bump into that ubiquitous end-point, ‘God works in mysterious ways.’ Instead, my end-point is, ‘Fascinating question, but I just don’t know the answer.’” Do you discern the substandard double standard?

“We can no more understand the infinite nature of the universe” but she claims to understand its nature enough to be an Atheist. Actually, God works in obvious ways and yet, she is happy living in ignorance because Atheism has taught her to be happy within its quaint materialistic-naturalistic box.

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Gidi Meir Morris: They note “Technically a Jew, now an Atheist who believes religion is more harm than good.” Main points: No age given.

This one is very succinct and has two aspects to it, both illogical.

They note, “I was born into a religious family, but became an atheist after using common sense and critical thinking to ask question that would never receive adequate answers.” Well, this only means that they subjectively preferred to not accept the answer (whatever the answers were to whatever the questions were).
Again, Richard Lewontin noted, “What seems absurd depends on one’s prejudice” and what seems adequate depends on one’s prejudice.

Another fallacy is that “I simply reached the conclusion that” the Bible, “is nothing more than a story written by human beings…a couple of thousand years ago came up with a piece of literature” and this is a logical genetic fallacy.

Aishwarya Chaurasia:
They note, “I don’t hate God, I just don’t believe he exists.”

I have been raised in a moderately religious family. My parents believe in God but are not stoic followers of his teachings in the sense that my brother and I were never forced to believe in him; we were advised, yes, but never forced against our will.

Main points: No age given but references 19 yrs old as a key moment.

It seems that Aishwarya may not understand what “stoic” means but in any case, they ask believers some question and we will get to them below

Firstly, we run into a particular and peculiar definition of Atheism whereby “everyone is born an atheist” which is merely playing off of one of various historical definitions of Atheism.

We can discern a stereotypical childish Atheist theology in the reference to “its only after indoctrination that we start thinking that we have an imaginary friend who is invisible, has many forms and lives in the sky” thus, childish notions are applied to God and so God seems silly.

The statement above statement continues directly with that the imaginary friend that lives in the sky is “watching every action of us, mortals, but doing absolutely nothing about it except punishing us every now and then through an earthquakes and floods (which, please note, kills innocents just because we had to be punished) or cancer (but hey, God is forgiving!).”
Of course, in stereotypical manner they launch directly into brimstone and fire condemnation without providing a premise upon which to condemn anything at all.

But just how does an Atheist know when and if God is causing “earthquakes and floods…or cancer,” because occasionally big haired televangelists take it upon themselves to claim as much? Well, they should stop believing big haired televangelists.

Aishwarya notes:

I used to thank him [God] for everything good happening in my life and blame myself for offending him every time something unfortunate happened to me…Instead of giving yourself credit for your achievements and thus raising your self esteem, you end up thanking God and when something goes wrong, instead of analyzing what went wrong, you beat yourself up.

Note a few things: they merely assert that which you should do based on their subjective standards. Thus, you should give yourself credit and raise your self-esteem. It is a false dichotomy to either 1) “end up thanking God and when something goes wrong” instead of 2) “analyzing what went wrong, you beat yourself up.” This reminds me of the Seinfeld show wherein George tells Jerry, “God will never let me be happy” to which Jerry replies, “I thought you didn’t believe in God” and George answers, “I do for the bad things.”

Aishwarya notes that in her view this whole religious or rather, Christian issue is…

All because your forefathers believed that some omnipotent power made them! You are not allowed to question, because that’s questioning God, which is greatest sin.

The first sentence is a logical genetic fallacy. The second may be something that they heard from someone somewhere along the way but is un-, non- and anti-biblical. Now, if we “are not allowed to question, because that’s questioning God, which is greatest sin” why then, pray tell, do we, as merely one example, find that Paul praised the Bereans for questioning his God inspired teaching?

And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so (Acts 17:10-11)

The KJV term “noble” is also translated as “fair-minded” (NKJV), “open-minded” (NLT, HCSB, NET). They are praised for being skeptical enough to double check what they were told.

So now, Aishwarya was given The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins on their 19th birthday and “This only helped me in understanding this delusion better. My entire thinking process became more and more logical and scientific.” Note that Aishwarya wrote, “If you are religious, I won’t judge you” but will judge you as being delusional. As for “thinking process became more and more logical” we have seen that it has not. As for thinking process became more and more scientific well, it certainly became more and more materialistic, naturalistic, Atheistic and resulted in scientism. For example, they note that “I understood everything better, even things like love, emotions and righteous behavior made more sense to me.”

Yet, according to Dawkins, et al., love and emotions are merely bio-chemical neural reactions and righteous behavior is merely a manner whereby to label Darwinian survival mechanisms. For example, Dawkins refers to altruism as “misfirings, Darwinian mistakes: blessed, precious mistakes,” see Altruism or Allfalseism. In short, Dawkins may impress youngsters but he began his judgmental God Delusion campaign by claiming that believer would pick up his book and become Atheists by the time they put it down. Yet, then, when the book was picked apart for being logically, theologically, scientifically and historically erroneous on various points, he claimed that the book was meant to be “funny” and “amusing,” see here.

Finally, we come to Aishwarya’s questions, “Please believe in whatever you want to” and have then judge you as being delusional, “but have an open mind and once in a while, question” which I will post in italics and then answer. Firstly, the first answer is a question: upon what premise does Aishwarya condemn anything? In an Atheist universe Aishwarya’s condemnations amount to the interpretation of bio-sensory neural reactions occurring within the haphazardly evolved gray matter of an accidentally and temporarily existing bio-organism which sits atop a spinning work, orbiting an average star in the backwaters of a accidentally and temporarily existing universe.

Thus, since Aishwarya is merely expressing personal preferences piled atop personal preferences why should we question or ask anything?

Yet, fort the sake of Christians who may want to consider how to deal with such issues:
Why would God hate bisexuals?
1) Why is “hate” wrong? 2) Who said that God hate bisexuals? 3) God condemns bisexuality since it violates His created order for sex which is male with female.

Why would God want you to praise him, and take revenge if you don’t?
1) Why is it wrong for God to want praise and to take revenge? 2) Who said that God wants you to praise him, and take revenge if you don’t? 3) God want you to praise Him because He is praiseworthy and because we will praise something or someone and we become misguided if we do not praise Him, 4) God takes revenge, playing off of Aishwarya’s terminology, on un-repented sin and has provided a manner whereby to do away with sin via repentance as a free grace gift through Jesus.

Why would God not like you to have sex before marriage?
1) Why is it wrong for God to not like you having sex before marriage? 2) Doing so violates God created order for marriage. 3) We can appeal to many, many reason why “2)” is the case such as the very, very, very long history of STDs, unwanted pregnancies, abortions, broken homes, emotional problems from being used as a sex object, etc., etc., etc.

Or make a woman any lesser than a Man?
1) Why is it wrong to make woman lesser than man? 2) Who said that woman is lesser than man? 3) The Bible’s very first chapter notes that both males and females were made in God’s image and the Bible is saturated with women who own land, run businesses, are prophetesses, are judges, etc., etc., etc. see Find it Fast – Fast Facts: is the Bible misogynistic? and Biblical Women.

How can your God be the one true God and every other God of every other religion be farce?
1) Why is it wrong to think that your God be the one true God and every other God of every other religion be farce? 2) How can your “4” answer to “2+2=?” be the one true answer and every other answer of every other person be farce? 3) If it is true that your God is the one true God and every other God of every other religion be farce then that answers itself. 4) However, how would we know that our God be the one true God…? There are many ways from historical to philosophic and from fulfilled prophecy to textual reliability and beyond—generally speaking. Now, how can Aishwarya conclude that Atheism is the one true worldview-philosophy and every other worldview-philosophy be farce?

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Cherubim & Seraphim in various apocrypha

Herein we begin a series regarding Cherubim and Seraphim in text generally termed the Apocrypha, Deutero Canonical, Pseudepigrapha, Gnostic Texts, etc. (see my article on the Apocrypha here). The fuller complete result consists of quotations of those sections within the text that refer to Angels, Cherubim, Seraphim, Devil, Satan, demons, serpent and dragon. The point is not to elucidate these references but to provide relevant partial quotations and citations. See my section on Angels in general and in apocryphal texts here.

Cherubim & Seraphim in in the Testament of Job, Gospel of Bartholemew aka Questions of Bartholemew, Bartholomew’s Book Of The Resurrection of Christ, Epistle of Ignatius to the Trallians, Spectacles by Tertullian, Prayer of Azariah and Song of the Three Holy Children, Book of the All-Virtuous Wisdom of Joshua ben Sira aka Wisdom of Sirach aka Sirach aka Siracides aka Book of Ecclesiasticus (not to be confused with the biblical book Ecclesiastes), The Narrative of Joseph of Arimathaea and Melchizedek.

Testament of Job – 1st century BC to 1st century AD
11:28 She spoke in the dialect of the Cherubim, singing the praise of the Ruler of the cosmic powers (virtues) and extolling their (His) glory.

Gospel of Bartholemew aka Questions of Bartholemew
III:6 And he led them away into a place that is called Cherubim (Cherukt Slav., Chairoudee Gr., Lat. 2 omits), that is the place of truth.

Bartholomew’s Book Of The Resurrection of Christ
Then Jesus rose and mounted into the chariot of the Cherubim. He wrought havoc in Hell, breaking the doors, binding the demons Beliar and Melkir (cf. Melkira in the Ascension of Isaiah), and delivered Adam and the holy souls…At midnight he rose and went out and found all the orders of Angels: Cherubim Seraphim, Powers, and Virgins…Believe me, my brethren the holy apostles, I, Bartholomew beheld the Son of God on the chariot of the Cherubim. All the heavenly hosts were about him. He blessed the body of Mary.

Meanwhile the Angels were singing the hymn which the Seraphim sing at dawn on the Lord’s day over his body and his blood.

Epistle of Ignatius to the Trallians – 2nd century AD
5 For even I, though I am bound [for Christ], and am able to understand heavenly things, the Angelic orders, and the different sorts of Angels and hosts, the distinctions between powers and dominions, and the diversities between thrones and authorities, the mightiness of the Aeons, and the pre-eminence of the cherubim and seraphim, the sublimity of the spirit, the kingdom of the Lord.

Spectacles by Tertullian – 197-220 AD
Therefore, if I enter the temple of Jupiter on the Capitol or that of Serapis as a sacrificer or worshiper, I shall fall away from God, just as I do if I enter the circus theater as a spectator.

Prayer of Azariah and Song of the Three Holy Children – 2nd century BC
1:32 Blessed art thou that beholdest the depths, and sittest upon the cherubims: and to be praised and exalted above all for ever.

Book of the All-Virtuous Wisdom of Joshua ben Sira aka Wisdom of Sirach aka Sirach aka Siracides aka Book of Ecclesiasticus (not to be confused with the biblical book Ecclesiastes) – 200 to 175 BC
49:8 It was Ezekiel who saw the vision of glory which God showed him above the chariot of the cherubim.

The Narrative of Joseph of Arimathaea
3 And He said to the robber: Go away, and tell the cherubim and the powers, that turn the flaming sword, that guard paradise from the time that Adam, the first created, was in paradise, and sinned, and kept not my commandments, and I cast him out thence.

4 And Jesus, having sat down in a certain place, thus read: We, the cherubim and the six-winged, who have been ordered by Thy Godhead to watch the garden of paradise.

Melchizedek – 150-300 AD
Ellipses in original translation by Søren Giversen and Birger A. Pearson.

For when they ate of the tree of knowledge, they trampled the Cherubim and the Seraphim with the flaming sword. They […], which was Adam’s, […] the world-rulers, and […] them out […] after they had brought forth […] offspring of the archons and their worldly things, these belonging to … (13 lines unrecoverable)

In the next segment, we will consider Book of Enoch & The Book of Adam.

When and why they became Atheists – Hoi Polloi Atheists, 7

Herein we will consider when and why certain personages became Atheists. We will parse these into Statistics, Influential Atheists, Ex-Catholics, Ex-Hindus and Hoi Polloi Atheists. As of now, I list the tales of 107 Atheists. You can find them all at the When and Why They Became Atheists Project page.

These examples are taken from Quora.

Binay Sahoo: Claims, “Staunch Theist turned Atheist by Logical Awakening” and also notes, “I was born into staunch Hindu Family, renounced religion while crossing adolescence.” Thus, one reason given is “Logical Awakening” and another is “crossing adolescence”; we shall see if the logical awakening coincided with crossing adolescence or not.

Beyond Hinduism, “I was exposed another spiritual organisation, this time a Buddhist one” and Buddhism is a sect or cult of Hinduism.

Main points:
“around 19 yrs of age…The Spiritual Teachings started appearing baseless garbage.”

Binay notes that “All of the fundamental principles, rules & regulations, of Religion and spiritualism appeared fraudulent. Every such damn organisation felt to be cheating money out of gullible & desperate preys.”
As is very stereotypical, this is a generic enough statement to be virtually meaningless. That which “appears fraudulent to Binay is merely subjective. It is certainly true that there are some organizations that cheat money out of gullible, etc. but to make an all-encompassing generic claim is merely prejudice.

Binay notes, “Here I am. A converted Atheist, not giving a damn about Religion, religious practices, concepts and associated myths & superstitions.” The last statement of note is a bit difficult to discern due to Binay’s slightly broken English, “As a result a some of religious activities. All of spiritual sessions & superstitious beliefs has vanished from my family. Its just the Faith in the ‘Almighty’ thats left, and I’m not forcing anyone into my beliefs.”

Alwyn Brannewyn van Deventer:
Begins by noting, “I have superpowers” and that he “became an Atheist after asking many questions.”

Main points: No age given. The above statement actually continues with “…and not getting any answers. Or the answers being so open to interpretation that they aren’t really answers at all.” He elucidates some of these question as follows, “I also have a very curious mind, and thus continuously ask questions about what I experience. ‘Where did God come from?’ ‘How can God always have existed?’ ‘How big was Noah’s boat to fit all the animals?’” Well, answers to such as easy but the issue is why Alwyn decided to claim “open to interpretation” and claim that they were not answered as per his subjective standards.

Where did God come from? This presupposes that God came from somewhere and to somewhere. The answer is actually a lead up to the second question.

How can God always have existed? We live within a time, space, matter continuum which is our universe. Genesis 1:1 states, “In the beginning [time] God created the heavens [space] and the earth [matter].” We otherwise know that the universe had a beginning, just as the Bible states, and it is logical to conclude that since time had a beginning, whatever brought the universe about was outside, beyond, not subject to time, timeless, eternal.
How big was Noah’s boat to fit all the animals? All what animals? This is important to ask since many mistakenly think that, for example, Noah had to fit every single species (whatever that means) of canine—multiply this by every species of every animal and the numbers add up very quickly. However, the Bible speaks in terms of animal kinds which appears to refer to animals that can mate with each other. Thus, only one canine male and female kind were needed—subtract this by every kind of every animal and the numbers reduce very quickly. A good place to start on the details of this question is the book Noah’s Ark: A Feasibility Study by John Woodmorappe.

Alwyn notes, “Then I also experienced the attitude that religious people have when someone asks them as many questions. Even though they are perfectly legitimate questions, they were many times seen as an attack towards the faith of the other person.” This may be the case as it seems to be a natural response. For example, I experienced the attitude that Atheists have when someone asks them as many questions. Even though they are perfectly legitimate questions, they were many times seen as an attack towards the worldview-philosophy of the other person. For instance, Atheists tend to take evolution, which is supposed to be a theory about biology and turn it into a worldview-philosophy. This is why so many of them get unhinged when you question something which is supposed to only pertain to issue relating to biology—they take it as you poking at the core of their worldview-philosophy.

He also notes, “I started becoming interested in cosmology, and started teaching myself about the Big Bang, physics and the way the universe works and behaves…things started making more sense…simply proves that it’s correct.” Well, those are important sciences yet, they are pretty soft as far as the sciences go since they are largely based on mathematical models about which cosmologists philosophize. We do not so much know how universe works and behaves as much as what certain people tell us about how the universe works and behaves.

Worse yet, “I learned about people like Carl Sagan and Richard Feynman. I watched so many of their shows and recordings it’s not even funny.” No, it is not funny when, for example, you note that the very premise of Sagan’s Cosmos show was the motto, “The cosmos is all that is or was or will ever be”: this is a 100% non-scientific “faith” based statement. Why does Alwyn not ask, “Where did the cosmos come from?”, learn more about Sagan and Feynman here and here.

As is stereotypical of many Atheists, the first complain that they “became an Atheist after asking many questions, and not getting any answers. Or the answers being so open to interpretation that they aren’t really answers at all,” etc. and then they end up stating words to the effect of, as in this case, Sagan and Feynman, “made me come to terms with the fact that many things will stay unknown, and that’s actually great.”

He also wrote, “If the answer to everything was ‘God made it’, it would not be very exciting at all and thus, when I became an Atheist I didn’t ‘loose’ anything, I actually gained a lot.” What?! He gained the fact that many things will stay unknown, and that’s actually great?! Well, another stereotypical Atheist fallacy is to not understand that there various kinds, forms or levels of answers or explanations. God made it is a sort of answer just like life just happens to have happened is a sort of answer. Yet, if we ask just how God made it and ask just how life happened then we are on to a different sort of answer: more of a step by step scientific one.

Lastly, he notes, “I got rid of the idea that the universe needs a God to exist, the universe became so much more amazing, and absolutely stunning that for the first time you see things for what they really are.” What?! He now sees things for what they really are even though the fact is that many things will stay unknown, and that’s actually great?! This is part of that about which I wrote in Atheism Spirituality which is that Atheists take the pop-science-theories-de jour, assume that they are infallibly true, use them to besmirch religions and turn them into a styled spirituality.
Thus, he got rid of the idea that, for some unstated reason, the universe needs a God to exist. He does not seem to ask “Where did the universe come from?” but he already referenced the Big Bang so apparently, it can just happen to happen—no one caused nothing to explode for no reason. Yet, the universe is now his god since getting rid of God means that, for some unstated reason, the universe became so much more amazing and absolutely stunning. This is, apparently, because according to his subjective standards it is an accident and for some unstated reason an accident not only results in an amazing and absolutely stunning object but one that was populated by being who could discern this amazing and absolutely stunning object.

why2batheism-1220101

Danny Karg:
Notes that becoming an Atheist, “was a lifelong process for me of simply having too many questions about God, and finding too few answers, or none.”

Main points:
No age given.

We have dealt with this again and again, Atheists claiming that they asked question and got no answers.
Stereotypically, we run into Catholicism yet again:

I was raised Catholic, and spend most of my life as a Catholic, although I always had trouble with my faith, and the things I was told to believe in. I called myself Christian, but in my heart I never really was one. I was getting too much contradicting information, and things just didn’t add up for me…
I’ve spoken to priests and others about the problems I had with God, to no avail. Not only was I told there are no real answers to my questions, but also that I shouldn’t even be asking them. Nice.

Interestingly, I am not and have never been a Catholic but my experience with Christianity is that Christians are people who asked all sorts of skeptical questions and got a lot of great answers even if they had to search them out for themselves. The fact that Danny writes, “Bishop, a super-priest!” denotes how Catholics view their clergy and why they are so devastated when the clergy does something untoward.
Then there is that ever present Catholic guilt, “As any good Catholic will tell you, if something is wrong, it’s their fault.”

Danny notes that some of his questions were:

“God is all-loving, all-caring, all-wise, and only wants the best for us.” Hmm, but don’t we also love to tell the story about how God got mad that one time and drowned nearly everyone on Earth? Or what about all those great old-timey stories about God encouraging genocide, or him just plain smiting some bothersome sinners? That sounds more like we created God in our image (as people have always done), not the other way around.

Now, upon what premise does Danny condemn drowning nearly everyone on Earth, genocide, smiting sinners or anything? Well, he bases it on his bio-chemical neural reactions called emotions. Thus, he cannot condemn anything at all.
He also does not tell us what is inconsistent about God being all-loving, all-caring, all-wise and only wanting the best for us even whilst performing those noted actions. In fact, he also does not state why he is condemning being inconsistent. As one myopic example, let us imagine that I am the all-loving, all-caring, all-wise and only wanting the best for my family; does this mean that I could not also kill someone who breaks into my home to harm my family? It answers itself.

Another of Danny’s question is:

“God is omniscient, and omnipotent; he sees all, and there’s nothing he can’t do.”
So why is it that for years I tried to get God to give me a sign, any tiny sign at all, that he existed, with no luck?

It is actually a stereotypical misconception to think, within the biblical context, that “there’s nothing” God “can’t do.” God can only take those actions which are commensurate with His holy nature. Thus, the Bible states that “God cannot lie” (Titus 1:2). Yet, Danny’s point is that God should have known that Danny spent years trying to get God to give him a sign but God did not so God must not be omniscient, omnipotent, sees all and therefore, God is not.
I do not mean to be un-empathetic but this is a stereotypical Atheist claim which results in the effect that God must do that which the Atheists demands or else the Atheist will deny God. The fact is that, for example, within a parable of Jesus’, he quotes Abraham as stating that if they do not believe in Moses and the prophets then they will not believe even if someone rises from the dead (see Luke 16). Also, Jesus played on this concept again in noting, “An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth” (Matthew 12:39-40).

Danny notes, “I one day just came to the point of saying what if? I’m a man of logic, so what if I apply Occam’s Razor here?” as I have noted again and again, those who appeal to Occam’s Razor the most seem to understand it the least and utterly ignore Occam’s Razor when it is not convenient to them such as when they want to claim the unproven existence of the multiverse. We can also discern his stereotypically childish Atheist theology when he writes, “Is it likely that the entire universe was created by, and controlled by, an all-powerful wizard who refuses to show himself?” We can also discern his stereotypically erroneous Atheist theology when he writes, “Is it likely he can read my thoughts, that he’s in every cell of my body, in fact everywhere in all of creation, but can’t be found?” I have certainly never heard anyone claim that God in every cell of our bodies and everywhere in all of creation except, maybe, within pantheistic theology which is not within the context of Danny’s reference to the God of the Bible.

Perhaps, as some have noted, an Atheist claims that God cannot be found for the same reason that a thief cannot find a police officer.

Again demonstrating undeveloped childish Atheist theology, Danny asks, “is it more likely that there simply is no God? Does that explain more? For me, it was like waking up. Giving up the dream of God wasn’t easy, just like I hated to learn that there was no Santa Claus, but there it is.” Thus, he is positively affirming God’s non-existence and must therefore prove it, he does not.

Yet, in stereotypical Atheist fashion, he does affirm God or rather, a god of his own making as he states, “Now math is my God” and this is that which he finds in “every cell of my body” as math “contains all the harmony, truth, spirituality and beauty” and we are back to the aforementioned Atheist spirituality.
What is interesting is that, as Cornelius Van Til has noted, an Atheist can count but cannot account for counting. In other words, a randomly and accidentally existing universe cannot account for how intelligibility such as linear chronology, cause and effect, the possibility of orderly numbers can occur. Same with aesthetics, beauty, against what is Danny determining what is beauty? Preference is in the eye of the beholder but beauty is not for if beauty is merely in the eye of the beholder then there is no beauty but merely preference.

Also, were are back to why a thief cannot find a police officer when Danny states that with math there is “No judgment, no punishment, it just… is” (ellipses in original). Is “No judgment, no punishment” a merely unexpected convenient side effect or is that was Danny was looking for in a god? It answers itself. He also wrote, “This mortal life is all we have, and it’s finally enough for me.” I know a pastor that told me that when he was a young unbeliever, he was very pleased to believe that this mortal life is all we have, and it’s finally enough for me since he wanted to ensure that he got away with whatever he wanted to do: “No judgment, no punishment” is a desired end.

Lastly, interestingly, Danny does not seem to ask “too many questions about” math or any whatsoever since he is happily giving us the non-answer of “it just… is.”

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Oprah Winfrey Believes That God is Jealous of Her

Upon typing out such a title a writer surely wishes to be able to follow up by stating that they were merely engaging in hyperbole or otherwise engaging in malarkey making.However, not only does Oprah Winfrey believe that God is jealous of her but this realization was the very concept from which her new enlightened spirituality was born.

Oprah Winfrey stated:1

I will say I was one of those people who used to go to church every-I grew up, as I was sharing with the last caller, you know, in the South and so going to church every Sunday, Sunday School, Baptist Training Union, Wednesday night prayer service, the whole thing, choir, all of it.And when I moved to Baltimore, I was in my 20s, and I remember sitting in a church, you know, one of those big churches where you have to get there at, you know, 6:30 in the morning to line up for 8 o’clock service, and the minister was preaching about-it was a really good preacher-and he was preaching about how God-“the Lord thy God was a jealous God and the Lord thy God would condemn us for whatever,” and I remember I-I had a spiritual aha!

There. And I was in my late 20s, and I suddenly thought, “How can this God who is all loving and all powerful, why would God be jealous of me?”

Note the specific point which caused her spiritual aha!; it was an utter misunderstanding of the Bible.Whether the preacher misrepresented the Bible is not clear as all we know is that he stated, “the Lord thy God was a jealous God and the Lord thy God would condemn us for whatever” and in any regard, we are all responsible for honest biblical skepticism such as that exercised by the Bereans who were praised for doing so (Acts 17:11).

Note Oprah’s interpretation of the preacher’s words as she asked herself, “…why would God be jealous of me?” Whence did she get the idea that God is jealous of her?

oprahwinfreychristianitygodspirituality-9736436
Consider the instances of references to God’s jealousy (as found in the King James Version). We actually find that four different words are translated as “jealous.”

In its first appearance, “jealous” is translated from the Hebrew word, zeloo which sounds very much like zealous. Indeed, zeloo (Strong’s # G2206) is primarily defined as, “to burn with zeal” and also, “in a good sense, to be zealous in the pursuit of good…to be the object of the zeal of others, to be zealously sought after.”

The first instance of the term zeloo is in the Decalogue, the Ten Commandments (see Exodus ch. 20), in which God states, “I [am] the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.” Since God had stated that “against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment” (Exodus 12:12 NKJV) in the Decalogue He states, “Thou shalt have no other gods before me…I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God” (this is reiterated in Deuteronomy 5:7-9).

Next, consider those texts that employ the Hebrew term qanna’ (Strong’s # H7067). Gesenius’s Lexicon states that it is, “used of God as not bearing any rival.” It appears in the following texts:

Exodus 34:14, “For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name [is] Jealous, [is] a jealous God.”

Deuteronomy 4:23-24, “Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of the LORD your God, which he made with you, and make you a graven image, [or] the likeness of any [thing], which the LORD thy God hath forbidden thee. For the LORD thy God [is] a consuming fire, [even] a jealous God.”

Deuteronomy 6:14-15, “Ye shall not go after other gods, of the gods of the people which [are] round about you. For the LORD thy God [is] a jealous God among you.”

There is also the very similar Hebrew word qana’ (Strong’s # H7065) defined as, “to envy, be jealous, be envious, be zealous…to excite to jealous anger.” This term appears in the following:

Joel 2:18, “Then will the LORD be jealous for his land, and pity his people.”

Zechariah 1:14, 8:2, “Thus saith the LORD of hosts; I am jealous for Jerusalem and for Zion with a great jealousy….Thus saith the LORD of hosts; I was jealous for Zion with great jealousy, and I was jealous..”

Ezekiel 39:25, “Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name.”

The fourth term is qannow’ (Strong’s # H7072) and is simply defined as, “jealous” as found in the following:

Nahum 1:2, “God [is] jealous…”

Joshua 24:19-20, “And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the LORD: for he [is] an holy God; he [is] a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins. If ye forsake the LORD, and serve strange gods…”

Note that being jealous is not, necessarily, a negative thing. I may be jealous of my neighbor because she has a more impressive vehicle than I. But I could also be jealous for my wife if I find that she is getting inappropriately friendly with another man.

God does not base His, what we anthropopathically refer to as, emotions upon bio-chemical reactions in His brain, upon misconceptions, or misreading situations. God experiences perfect emotions (see the essay On God’s Odd Attributes).

As another example, anger can be very negative when expressed for the wrong reasons and toward the wrong person. Yet, there is such a thing as “righteous anger” which is an appropriate anger expressed for appropriate reasons towards appropriate personages or situations. Getting angry at a blind person who stepped on your toes is unrighteous anger while anger expressed towards oppressive regimes is righteous.

This is the very point: the contextual conclusion is that God is not jealous “of” anyone or anything but is jealous “for” us. God is not jealous of Oprah Winfrey rather, God is jealous for her.

Oprah should have asked her pastor of what he spake and then conducted a Bible study such as was done above. Had she done so, she would likely not have abandoned the Jesus of the Bible, the God of the Bible, the Christianity of the Bible and the Bible itself in order to concoct the pseudo-gospel according to Oprah. She has not rejected God; she has rejected her own misconception of God and replaced her misconception of God with an even more misconceived God who is also of her own making.

VIDEO: What if God appeared to an Atheist? – Bible Thumping Wingnut Show

What if God appeared to an Atheist? – Bible Thumping Wingnut Show.

Interestingly, I wrote the following on my Facebook page regarding this video:

I received a very, very, very common comment from an Atheist to the following video, “If God was real he would have the ability to open up my mind [my intellect] to accept him as real. To God it would be a doddle! So here I am at 71 years old and nope, I see no evidence for him yet? What a silly argument this is and so typical of the religious.”

I replied thusly, “Friend, the fact is that, as you have proved, Atheists are theologians and are dogmatic about their theology (dogmatheism) which is why you argue or rather assert that if God was then God would X and since God does not X then God is not. This is a theology of your own making, with X being your subjective preference de jour, and so in the end you merely succeed in discrediting a god made in your own image: it is a straw-man or, a straw-god.”

Well, am Atheist’s comment therein was merely a double down on the point I made above!

God question? Can mankind understand or perceive God. Assuming God is a presence or essence, that may be smarter or more evolved than humans. Humans have only existed for a mere spec of time compared to say the dinosaurs or geologic time. But humans have shown themselves to be pretty smart in adapting to changing conditions on earth (our main advantage over other earth animals). Between humans an IQ of 60 is considered retarded mental development. 150 is genius. A genius with an IQ 2-3 times higher than a retarded person can persevere many more things.

The retarded person can not perceive things the genius can. Numerically something that is 10, 100, 1000, or more is easily comprehensible. If a being or entity were 1000 times more advanced (smarter) would we comprehend this being? The problem is, the smartest man can’t answer the question.

You see, beyond all of the supposed statistic and logic, he is merely doing that which I noted the YouTuber’s were doing and so I wrote back:

Friend, you proved my point as you outline your dogmatheistic theology. Your statement is peppered with peculiar assertions. If a being or entity were 1000 times more advanced (smarter) it would figure out a manner whereby we could comprehend it.

The Atheist wrote back thusly:

We assume it wants to, where it is us that wants to.

FYI: since I can see the editing history, I will note that after I replied, he deleted the comment and replaced it with, “It was an old simplistic text, but true enough to the point. Above u assume it wants to communicate w us, where it is us that wants to communicate w it. But if it’s not comprehensible then it’s simply not.”

In any case, my reply to the original comment was:

That is your dogmatheistic theology.

And it was left at that. This is actually a very important Atheist tactic to keep in mind as they will invent a theology and then demand that you defend yours are filtered, redefined, informed, etc. with theirs.

Anyhow, here is the video:

Was Jesus violent?, part 1 of 7

The essay Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan’s Anti-Missionary Assertions has brought about a discussion as to whether Jesus not only inspired violence (even two millennia later) but was violent Himself.

What we will conclude in demonstrating, quite lucidly, is 1) that Jesus was not violent and 2) that unbelievers reach tragically sad depths of desperation as they will cling to utterly anything, anything at all which they tell themselves will justify their unbelief.

Part of the issue pertaining to Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan is a particular, and peculiar, statement in his book “The Real Messiah? A Jewish Response to Missionaries.” This book is of very poor quality and is meant to teach Rabbinic Jews how to argue with Christians.

The specific issue was what is typical within that book: taking texts out of context to make pretexts for prooftexts. Here is the text and statement at issue (p. 74, 1985 ed.):

In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus instructed his followers (Matthew 5:43) “Love your enemies, bless those who curse you, and do good to those who hate you.”
This might have been a fine lesson if Jesus himself lived up to it. But when it came to his own enemies, Jesus declared (Luke 19:27), “Take my enemies, who would not have me rule over them, bring them here, and kill them before me.”

This sentiment was repeated by Gerald Sigal (of Jews for Judaism) when he wrote,

He who advocates…killing enemies (Luke 19:27) cannot be called a ruler of peace

This is a perfect example of just how important it is to check the citations. The text they are referring to in Luke 19:27 begins in v.11 with this statement, “While they were listening to this, he went on to tell them a parable.” It is a man in the parable that said, “Take my enemies…bring them here, and kill them before me.” Jesus said it, but they were not his words.

Gerald Sigal’s reference to “ruler of peace” harkens back to Isaiah 9:6 which mentions the ruler, or prince of peace (see The Isaiah 9 Controversy).

This claim of his denotes an epic failure. The Jewish claim that the Messiah is to be the ruler / prince of peace does not envisage, as it were, that the Messiah shows up making a V sign with his fingers, wearing John Lennon spectacles and states, “Peace maaaaaaaaan! Can’t we all just get along?”

Nay, rather a generalized Jewish view of the Messiah’s role is that the Messiah would first vanquish Israel’s enemies and only then rule peacefully. The manner via which the Messiah brings about peace is not peaceful (see Jewish Messianic Concepts).

This brought about a counterargument from a supporter of the violent Jesus view who attempted to support the premise that Jesus wanted His followers to commit murder for Him.

The counter-arguer interprets the parable as follows:

A man came from a distant country (Heaven) to have himself appointed king, his subjects rejected him (the Jews including Peter etc,..) he was made king (crucified) and returned home (back to Heaven)?

He followed up by asking, the right and logical question:

Isn’t JC referring to himself in the “parable”?

That is the key question, because if the “parable” is a parable, which it is, then counter-arguer’s interpretation may not be correct as it may not have a one to one correspondence to Jesus Himself. The counter-arguer also posed the following right and logical question,

What exactly did he mean? To not kill them?

Thus, these are the two key questions, to which we shall come. However, along the way the counter-arguer threw in some info with which we ought to deal.

The key question, in response to him, was:

Do you believe that Jesus actually commanded His disciples to commit murder, for Him and in His name, but they just ignored Him?

VIDEO: CIA remote viewing “Psychic Detectives” in “Mindscape” movie

CHRISTIANITY
Christianity

Christian Apologetics

Bible

God – Theology

Problem of Evil – Theodicy

Jesus

Nephilim – Giants

Book of Enoch

Serpent Seed

Satanic Serpent & Dragon

Angels

Cherubim & Seraphim

Satan / Devil

Demons

Miracles

Inspirational

Unbelievers Compliment Christianity

Da Vinci Code / Angels and Demons / Templars, etc.

Gospel of Judas

The Lost Tomb of Jesus

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ATHEISM
Atheism

New Atheists

When and Why They Became Atheists Project

Project-Answering Atheism

Richard Dawkins

Sam Harris

Christopher Hitchens

Dan Barker

Daniel Dennett

Bart Ehrman

Bill Maher

PZ Myers

Quentin Smith

Michael Shermer

John Loftus

Ricky Gervais

Raphael Lataster

Carl Sagan

Atheism’s Public Relations Problems

Atheist Bus Ads and Billboards

Atheist Child Rearing

Atheist Charity

American Atheists

American Humanist Association

The Skeptic Arena

ExChristian.Net

PositiveAtheism.org

Evilbible.com

Science Club of Long Island

Skeptic’s Annotated Bible

Capella’s Guide to Atheism

The BOBA Digest

————-
RELIGIONS
Judaism (Rabbinic, Messianic, etc.)

Baha’i

Islam

Jehovah’s Witnesses

Mormonism

Catholicism

Scientology – Dianetics – L. Ron Hubbard

Unitarian Universalism

Misc. Religions

————-
FRINGE-OLOGY
Transhumanism

UFOs and Aliens

Billy Meier

Whitley Strieber

Robert Temple-Sirius Mystery

Conspiracy theories, Illuminati, New World Order (NWO), etc.

Occult, Witchcraft, Magick, satanism, etc.

Satanic Crime

————-
SCIENCE
Science

Creation Science

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Angels in the apocryphal texts Patriarchs, Zadokite Work, Joseph of Arimathaea & Joseph the Carpenter

Herein we continued, from part 1, part 2, part 3, part 4, part 5, part 6, part 7, part 8, part 9, part 10, part 11, part 12, part 13, part 14, part 15, part 16, part 17, part 18, part 19, part 20, part 21, part 22, a series regarding paranormal entities in text generally termed the Apocrypha, Deutero Canonical, Pseudepigrapha, Gnostic Texts, etc. (see my article on the Apocrypha here). The quotations are of those sections within the text that refer to Angels, Cherubim, Seraphim, Devil, Satan, demons, serpent and dragon. The point is not to elucidate these references but to provide relevant partial quotations and citations.

Angels in the apocryphal texts Tales of the Patriarchs, Fragments of a Zadokite Work aka The Damascus Document, Narrative of Joseph of Arimathaea and History of Joseph the Carpenter.

Tales of the Patriarchs – 2nd century AD
Col 15 And he should come between… Four Angels… between all nations. And they will all worship and be dumbfounded… I will honestly explain to you. And I, Noah woke up from my sleep and the Sun. [ellipses in original]

Fragments of a Zadokite Work aka The Damascus Document – 10th to 12th century AD
2:4-5 And power and might and great fury with flames of fire [therein are all the Angels of destruction] for them who turned aside out of the way, and abhorred the statute, so that there should be no remnant, nor any to escape of them.

20:2 And on the day on which the man imposes it upon himself to return to the law of Moses the Angel of Mastema will depart from him if he make good his word.

Narrative of Joseph of Arimathaea –
3 I see Thee, Christ, adored by myriads of myriads of Angels…[Jesus has] come down into the world to be made flesh, and to be nailed to a cross, in order that I might save Adam, whom I fashioned,–to my Archangelic powers, the gatekeepers of paradise, to the officers of my Father.

5 After I had beheld these things, as I was going into Galilee with Jesus and the robber, Jesus was transfigured, and was not as formerly, before He was crucified, but was altogether light; and Angels always ministered to Him, and Jesus spoke with them.

Report of Pontius Pilate, Procurator of Judaea Sent to Rome to Tiberius Caesar (second Greek form) – 150-255 AD
And as lightnings come on in winter, so majestic men of indescribable splendour of dress and of glory appeared in the air, and an innumerable multitude of Angels crying out, and saying: Glory in the highest to God, and on Earth peace, among men goodwill: come up out of Hades, ye who have been kept in slavery in the underground regions of Hades.

History of Joseph the Carpenter – 6th to 7th century AD
1 Verily the Saviour diligently inquires into the inheritance which is due, and is the administrator of justice. And the Angels will cast down their enemies, and will fight for them in the day of conflict.

6 But at mid-day there appeared to him in a dream the prince of the Angels, the holy Gabriel…Having thus spoken, the Angel departed from him. And Joseph rose from his sleep, and did as the Angel of the Lord had said to him; and Mary abode with him.

12 And as his body was verging on dissolution, an Angel of the Lord informed him that his death was now close at hand.

13 …the great Michael, the prince of Thy holy Angels…Thy holy Angel be present with his help to my soul and body…And let not the face of the Angel, appointed my guardian from the day of my birth.

17 Thou art altogether my God; Thou art my Lord, as the Angel has told me times without number…behold, there appeared to me in my rest Angels of the Lord.

22 O Father of all mercy…send Michael, the prince of Thine Angels, and Gabriel, the herald of light, and all the light of Thine Angels.

23 And the Angels preserved his soul from the demons of darkness which were in the way, and praised God even until they conducted it into the dwelling-place of the pious.

25 And as soon as I had finished it, and pronounced the amen, a great multitude of Angels came up.

In the next segment, we will consider Avenging of the Saviour and Book of John the Evangelist aka Interrogatio Iohannis.