From Zeitgeist to Poltergeist – Responding to Richard Dawkins on the Issue of Atheism, Joseph Stalin, Adolf Hitler, Communism and Nazism

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What’s to prevent us from saying Hitler wasn’t right?
I mean, that is a genuinely difficult question
” —Richard Dawkins (during an interview with Larry Taunton,

Richard Dawkins: The Atheist Evangelist,”

byFaith Magazine,
Issue Number 18, December 2007)

Part 1: Introduction

Part 2: The Premise and the Narrow Argument and On Stalin, Hitler, Communism and Nazism

Part 3: Hitler the Christian? and Hitler the Anti-Christian!

Part 4: The Faulty Conclusion and The Deicidal and Misanthropic Prophecies

Part 5: Would the Holocaust have happened if Hitler had been a Buddhist?

Part 6: If you were God would you have let the Holocaust happen? and God Exists and is Not Evil or Impotent But Still Let the Holocaust Happen and If God Does Not Exist

Part 7: Hints at the Other Side of the Story and Hitler as Bible Expositor and Nazism and Abortion

Part 8: What Smith and Dawkins Did Not Bother Mentioning

Part 9: Anti-Christian Nazism

Part 10: Imagine Utopia

Part 11: Atheist and Darwinist Communists

Part 12: Hitler’s and Nazism’s Darwinism and Use, Abuse and Misuse of Darwin

Part 13: Was Hitler a Christian or an Atheist?

Will Richard Dawkins Debate Stephen Meyer?, part 2

Answer, “No.”

You may recall the post Will Richard Dawkins Debate Stephen Meyer? Well, the question has been asked directly, again, and the answer elucidated by Dawkins himself.

While Richard Dawkins appeared as a guest on the Michael Medved radio show, Bruce Chapman (President of the Discovery Institute) asked him about debating Stephen Meyer. What can be stated about Dawkins’ answer is that at least he is consistent as this has been his reason, or excuse, for decades: he is so far superior than any “creationist” of any sort whatsoever—Christian, Jew, Muslim, YEC, OEC, or even Intelligent Design theorist, etc.—that debating them would only boost their resume and do nothing for his.

The fact that, on ever rare occasion, he breaks this rule and debates one of those people such as John Lennox or Shmuley Boteach notwithstanding. He is clearly breaking one of his very own new ten commandments (of which there are fifteen) which states, “Never seek to censor or cut yourself off from dissent.” You will note that whenever Richard Dawkins deals with Creationist or Intelligent Design arguments they are generally within the safety of his books and in such cases they are the very bottom of the barrel arguments many via anecdotes; these are the only ones he knows about since he refuses to accept challenges from reputable representatives of such positions.

Consider the conversation between Bruce Chapman and Richard Dawkins, with Medved refereeing:

Bruce Chapman: Dr. Dawkins, this is Bruce Chapman from Discovery Institute calling. I was frustrated with this conversation because most of the time I hear straw man arguments about intelligent design. Your new book apparently doesn’t really deal with intelligent design.
But it seems to me, that in your previous book, you said that it’s a question of science, that it is a scientific argument – I congratulate you for that — But if it is, how about having a debate with Stephen Meyer, who is the author of another new book, Signature in the Cell, which deals with this question, and have this in a respectful, civilized, scholarly fashion where you look at the scientific arguments, pro and con?

Richard Dawkins: Now, when you say that I don’t deal with intelligent design, I do, because I deal with creationism and, of course, intelligent design is simply another name for creationism invented for political reasons.

Bruce Chapman: Well, if it’s another name for creationism, why did you distinguish between intelligent design and creationism very early in this program?

Richard Dawkins: I don’t.

Michael Medved: You did, earlier on, when we were talking about the Holocaust denier analogy, you said you applied that analogy to old earth creationists. Intelligent design advocates are not old earth creationists.

Richard Dawkins: Sorry, um, I applied the history-deniers to young earth creationists.

Michael Medved: I’m sorry, young earth creationists, yes, but you know intelligent design advocates are not young earth creationists.

Richard Dawkins: I do, and that was precisely the distinction I was making. That’s why I said that I was not accusing intelligent design people of being history deniers, in that sense.

Michael Medved: But you just said intelligent design is another name for creationism.

Richard Dawkins: It is another name for creationism, but not young earth creationism.

Michael Medved: Bruce Chapman?

Bruce Chapman: In that case, you’ve got an argument with your previous caller also, because that would be a theistic evolutionist proposition, which is also, by your definition, if it’s not Darwinian evolution, it’s creationism in some fashion. There isn’t any other kind of evolution, as far as you’re concerned.

Richard Dawkins: Where do you guys think – do you think that God did it?

Bruce Chapman: I don’t know, I don’t think that the intelligent design people—

Richard Dawkins: That’s what you say, you always pretend, you always pretend that an alien in outer space or something, but you know very well that what you mean is God.

Bruce Chapman: No, I think that was your line in Expelled. But I think that the thing that you really ought to consider, in all seriousness, is that by your own definition there is a scientific argument. Put that scientific argument to the test, not with somebody who’s a straw man that you bring up, but have somebody like Meyer, who has written a very scholarly book, to actually debate this topic with you…

Michael Medved: All right, the proposal’s on the table, response from Professor Dawkins, thank you, Bruce.

Richard Dawkins: I will have a discussion with somebody who has a genuinely different scientific point of view. I have never come across any kind of creationism, whether you call it intelligent design or not, which has a serious scientific case to put. The objection to having debates with people like that is that it gives them a kind of respectability. If a real scientist goes onto a debating platform with a creationist, it gives them a respectability, which I do not think your people have earned.

The only way to equate “creationism” with “intelligent design” is ONLY by stating that both hold that someone/something did the creating. Yet, one main reason that it is fallacious to equate “creationism” (which, of course, carries with it theistic implications) with “Intelligent Design” is that there are intelligent design proponents of various sorts such as: atheist (think of Francis Crick) and agnostics (think of David Berlinski).

Yet, when Dawkins plays mind reader and claims that ID theorists are pretending he is committing a category mistake. For example, let us imagine an Intelligent Design theorist believe in a specific God. They would state that they believe in God for reasons _____________ (fill in the blank) but would also admit that Intelligent Design theory does not lead directly to the existence of a specific God. In this sense Intelligent Design theory may imply the existence of specific God—but the theory only goes so far and no further: this is that ID theorists keep begging people such as Dawkins to hear, understand and be honest enough to repeat.

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Let us end with my paraphrase which illustrates Dawkins’ vicious circular logic:

Dawkins: Creationists have not earned the right to debate a real scientist because they have not put forth a serious scientific case.

Chapman: Stephen Meyer has put forth a scientific case.

Dawkins: No, he has not, because I do not know about it.

Chapman: Then read Stephen Meyer’s book and find out about it.

Dawkins: Creationists have not earned the right to debate a real scientist because they have not put forth a serious scientific case.

Chapman: Stephen Meyer has put forth a scientific case.

Dawkins: No he has not because I do not know about it.

Chapman: Then debate Stephen Meyer and find out about it.

Dawkins: Creationists have not earned the right to debate a real scientist because they have not put forth a serious scientific case.

Chapman: Have you considered the arguments and evidence?

Dawkins: Yes, creationists tell me that they will believe in evolution when they see a monkey give birth to a human.

Chapman: That concept does not exist within Intelligent Design theory and Meyer does not make any such argument.

Dawkins: Still, he has not put forth a serious scientific case.

Chapman: How do you know since you are unaware of his arguments?

Dawkins: Because he is a creationist and creationists have not put forth a serious scientific case.

Etc., etc., etc.

Sadly, personages such as Richard Dawkins will continue arguing against straw-men and a straw-God, their adherents will continue to praise and enrich them and they will all continue justifying their arguments from outrage based on how good it makes them feel to be superior.

‹ Will Richard Dawkins Debate Stephen Meyer?, part 1 up

ECKANKAR, Religion of the Light and Sound of God, part 3

Miscellaneous Statements from Various Writings:

I transcribed the following blockquoted quotations around the year 2002 and while I noted the page numbers, I failed to write down from which Exkankar publication I was quoting. If for this reason you wish to dismiss them, feel free to do so:

p. 4
“‘Early Christianity grew out of the teachings of Jesus, a student of the ECK Master Zadok. Jesus got the Second Initiation from Fubbi Quantz at the Katsupari Monestery during a three-year stay from his journeys.”

p. 10
“the great spiritual travelers of history: Rama, Krishna, Pythagoras, Rebazar Tarzs, Plato, and Jesus.”

p. 27
“The Christian Bible gives but vague reference to the Sound and Light.”

p. 28
“Saint John called Spirit ‘the Word.’ This is the physical manifestation of the ECK. Saul of Tarsus was rendered blind by the Light on the road to Damascus before regaining his sight three days later.”

p. 41
“By definition, the Word of God is simply the Sound Current, or the ECK. The Bible calls It the Holy Ghost, or Holy Spirit.”

p. 98
“Judas risked eternity for thirty pieces of silver, which he used for the purchase of land. But he never got to enjoy the fruits of the land because he fell headlong from a high place, and the fall put an end to him.”

pp. 132-133
“procedure is the same used by the ECK Masters of all time. The teacher comes to give his message, lifts the more enlightened ones into the spiritual planes, then leaves the earthly theater to work in the Silence, either here or on the other side. Rebazar Tarzs teaches in this manner today, although he still keeps a physical body. He operates in the historical mode that Jesus copied from the Order of the Vairagi.”

“The silver cord has been severed for the bodies of Christianity, Buddhism, Judaism, even to the extent that the recent offshoots of ECK, such as the Sant Mat groups, have so little of the spiritual essence in them that one could spend a lifetime in them and not see any real results . This is not to say that only people in ECK will find enlightenment, but the members of the orthodox groups find it despite their church. If their future depended upon the nourishment that is in the bibles of men, they would starve in spirit.”1

“Experiencing the Light and Sound of God gives you the momentum to start working off all the karma that has held you back from spiritual freedom and true happiness.”2

“ECKANKAR teaches over one hundred different exercises, all designed to give you a greater understanding of yourself and of God.”3

“Most all his life, a certain man harbored a stubborn fear of life. This fear robbed him of happiness and vitality, often leaving him angry and full of self-pity…one day, he finally learned the reason for that haunting fear…An Eckankar seminar near his home featured a HU Chant…For a half hour or so, a group of people sing HU, an ancient name for God…he had a dim memory of a dream about the ancient Mayans and a past life he had spent as one…A past-life recall told him of another lifetime when he was a young woman among the Mayans…The [Mayan] priest cut out her heart while it was still beating…he also realized the reason he had come to Eckankar—a chance to restore that love to his life.”4

“The play of karma underlies all human relationships.”5

“a young man…needed to repay a victim from a previous life, but the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master (the spiritual leader of Eckankar today) sent a dream to prepare him for the necessary, though painful experience.”6

“Then came a second dream. The Mahanta took him on the Time Track and showed him a past life in which he had been a woman. Married to a wealthy man, this individual had two house servants, both of whom suffered due to Nick’s misuse of position and authority. One was this student. ‘You made that karma,’ the Mahanta explained. ‘That debt stands between you and God’s love. Pay now and be done with it.’”7

“How do they know these are the true teachings about life, love, and God? Maybe it’s just another state of delusion? Maybe, once again, they’re being fooled or are fooling themselves? Well, maybe. But maybe not. Truth is truth and will stand on its own merit.”8

“God speaks through the voice of conscience, holy scriptures, feelings, and even the positive urgings of other people. Yet there are other ways. God’s Voice also reaches us through human love, intuition, dreams, the Spiritual Exercises of ECK, or a direct experience with the Light and Sound of God.”9

“Dreams are windows into worlds beyond the ordinary… Dreams serve as a communication line between the invisible and visible worlds. Or, if you prefer, between heaven and earth….A dream is a real-life experience an individual has on another plane of God… Temples of Golden Wisdom are found on the many levels of existence. Members of Eckankar often visit these temples [in their dreams] for learning, inspiration, and spiritual healing… To understand the true nature of dreams, members of Eckankar receive direction and help from Harold Klemp…As the Mahanta, the inner teacher, he is also the Dream Master. He offers personal guidance through dreams and the inner teachings of ECK… Ask the Dream Master or your own spiritual teacher for guidance…

sing HU (pronounced like the word hue) for about five minutes…It has the unique ability to lift you into a higher state of awareness.”10

“Eckankar teaches simple spiritual exercises to experience the Light and Sound of God. These exercises also help us Soul Travel, to move into greater states of consciousness. A spiritual exercise can be as simple as relaxing and singing the word HU, an ancient name for God…each of us is Soul, a spark of God sent to this world to gain spiritual experience.”11

“Most children who remember their past lives do so during the ordinary waking state. Others, however, have dreams or nightmares which reflect scenes from their past lives.”12

“By putting a stop to all analytic thinking, in the certain knowledge that there is nothing which has an absolute existence, nothing on which to lay hold, nothing on which to rely, nothing in which to abide, nothing subjective or objective, then they cross the dark region of this world and come to my temple in the pine grove. Then I will give them the true light and send them upward to the region of the great Lord Sohang….
Questions are needless for they only lead from riddle to riddle…look within at the static self, the Soul which is there and realizing it alone can answer all questions on Godhood.”13

VIDEO: Words of wisdom from Fyodor Dostoyevsky's The Brothers Karamazov / Братья Карамазовы

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