Herein begins a discussion I had with someone I will call Anon. since it was a behind the scenes discussion wherein the person offers some concerns about my views on Nephilim related issues and I am deeply appreciative to this person for raising these issues with me.
When all segments are posted, you will be able to find them here.
I do feel there is an “issue” with your interpretation/understanding of post flood “nephilim”…although, again, very glad you are debunking a lot of the nonsense that is being “sold” out there in this regard….
Plainly, that there WERE “nephilim” post flood…as the Bible states. I have heard how you explain this (away), but the texts are fairly clear that there were, indeed nephilim “afterwards”. One might be tempted to ask, “Why does it even matter?”
I think you and I clearly see how “it matters” when the “giants” are turned into something they are NOT, and something to “fear” today (bloodlines and the whole gamut), but what about when “ignored”? Is there a downside to this position? I would say there is, on two fronts/levels.
Firstly, truth matters… and reperesenting the Bible well/acurately is of utmost importance; I’m sure that is your intent, and you would wholeheartedly agree. Secondly, it matters because it is a HUGE part of the reason for God’s instruction to completely anahilate the Canaanites–something many people struggle with, for its apparent barbarity (women, children, animals included).
For these reasons, I would urge you to re-consider accepting the texts “plainly” in what they say (Gen 6, 12 spies’ account, etc.) I see no “valid” reason to try to “reason” this away. I offer this for your prayerful re-consideration. grace and peace [ellipses in original]
I, Ken Ammi, replied
Okay so, let us begin with being careful about when we say “as the Bible states”: do we mean “when the Bible records something” or “when God inspired someone to write” or “when God was prescribing actions or beliefs” or, or, or.
For example, “Ye shall not surely die” can be characterized as “as the Bible states” but when “the Bible states” that it is merely recording what Satan stated. So, should we believe what Satan, the “father of lies,” states just because “the Bible states” it? No. The “Bible states” the recording of one of Satan’s lies.
So, the issue is who stated what, why, how was it taken, etc.
Yes, “the texts” actually text in the singular (as we shall see), “are fairly clear that there were, indeed nephilim ‘afterwards’” but note that you are unable to quote Gen 6:4 as stating “after the flood” or some such thing and you are unable to because it is not there—the flood is not mentioned for the very first time until a full 13 verses later.
I would wonder if you are not thinking that “afterwards” refers to the flood due to having read ahead to Num 13:33 and then circling back to re-read Gen 6:4—and you also do so for the reasons you noted, to which I will get.
Note that Gen 6:4 tells you exactly to which days (those and after) it is referring, “in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them” so the days are “when” they did that.
Now the question becomes when did they do that?
Well, Gen 6:1 told us that it was “when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them.”
Now the question becomes when was that?
I have no idea, perhaps as early as when Adam and Eve’s children started having children.
Yet, the point is made: “those days” is “when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them” and “after that” just means after “when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them” yet, without reference to the flood: those days and after that are all pre-flood days.
My view is that yes, “the ‘giants’ are turned into something they are NOT” by most of the most well known people talking about this stuff who portray them as “something to ‘fear’” but do I ignore them? No, they lived pre-flood, did not return, and never will, in any way, shape, or form.
I agree that “truth matters… and reperesenting the Bible well/acurately is of utmost importance” so what about “God’s instruction to completely anahilate the Canaanites”? It is simple, actually (and I wrote a whole chapter just on this issue alone in one of my books): God tells us many times why He commanded what He did in that regard and never says one single word about Nephilim, nor relation to Nephilim (thus, no Nephilim genetics or any such modern-day myth).
Much research has gone into showing that some of what you put as “apparent barbarity (women, children, animals included)” is what is know as Ancient Near East hyperbole. In fact, you may note that even when God commands such destruction and we are told it was accomplished, we end up finding out that such people still survived. It is like when, say, a comedian states, “I killed the audience today, massacred them, slaughtered them” to mean he really made them laugh a lot. Paul Copan, for example, wrote a book titled “Is God A Moral Monster?” which gets into those details.
As for “12 spies’ account” which is actually only 10 spies account—the 10 who were unfaithful, disloyal, self-contradictory, embellishers, presented an evil report and were rebuked for it—just the other night I focused on that in an opening statement in a debate: https://truefreethinker.com/articles/video-tj-steadman-vs-ken-ammi-nephilim-debate
By the way: since only 8 people and some animals survived the flood, how did post-flood Nephilim come about? Note that the Bible states nothing about any such thing which is why people literally had to invent tall tales about how it happened—and they do not mind contradicting God’s word when they do so.
I appreciate you reasoning with me and welcome any and all further input.
We will pick it up from there in the next segment.
See my books (yes, plural) on Nephilim related issues.
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