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“Where do Evil Spirits Come From?” discussion as per Dr. Michael S. Heiser’s video

The subject video led to this discussion when @deepwaters2334a commented

The problem with the idea is that Hebrews 1 clearly shows that Spirts are angels, and that humans and angels are totally different. Therefore, humans cannot be disembodied demonic spirits. One could say the same evil spirits of the anakim roam the earth (which is itself the pit/Hades/Tartarus (Jesus said what is bound on Earth will be bound in heaven, and what is loosed on Earth loosed in Heaven) since we know Satan has been cast down from heaven to wander the Earth like a roaring lion), but it is not the souls of the Anakim, which wait for judgement. I definitely favor the sethite view of the “sons of God” over the Nephilim being the children of the fallen angels since angels must inhabit bodies since they don’t have their own, being only spirits.

@kenammi355

Well friend, it’s only the case that “Hebrews 1 clearly shows that Spirts are angels” in the version that you’re reading: many have it as “winds.” And they don’t have it that way arbitrarily but because it’s in Heb 1 since Heb 1 quoting and playing off of Ps 104:4 where, again, some have “spirits” but some rightly have “winds” and “winds” is correct since it’s keeping with the context of the Ps which contains constant correlations to natural phenomena.

But besides, you can’t base an entire theory on one modern English word, the fact is that Angels are always described as looking like human males, performing physical actions, and without indication that such isn’t their ontology. That also does away with the assertion, “humans and angels are TOTALLY different.”

Now, you began by referring to that “Spirts are angels” but then you moved the goalpost to “demonic spirits.” For a biblical view, please see my article, “Demons Ex Machina: What are Demons?”

As for, “evil spirits of the anakim” why did you artificially insert them into any of this: the 100% human Anakim people group didn’t even exist until centuries post-flood.

You also assert, “Satan has been cast down from heaven to wander the Earth” but that’s a Rev 12 event and likely hasn’t happened yet.

“the sethite view” is a late-comber based on myth, prejudice, and only creates more problems than it solves (so, more than zero).

@deepwaters2334

I appreciate your detailed analysis, but I think I can convince you. I agree some translations use “spirits”  instead of “winds”, but it is not relevant since the point is the angels are sent in various forms. The verse also says servants are sent as fire, which clearly refers to the burning bush appearing to Moses. So either way, we know Angels don’t always appear in physical bodies. I would argue the verse also refers to the pillar of smoke/fire that led the Israelites out of Egypt. I would say that the idea angels always appear as human-like beings is incorrect. Hebrews 1 clearly shows no angel is a son of God in verse 5, and they will be lower than the children of God in heaven, but we see them a little above humans presently. Angels=Spirits. Elisha’s eyes were opened to the spirit world, and he saw the angels in human forms, but not until his eyes were made able to see the spirit world this way. The same can be said for the book of Revelation, which gives angels human forms only as a means of a vision, not literally. All of the visions in Revelation are prophetic, and if the lamb was sacrificed from the day Adam and Eve sinned, Satan was defeated that day; that is why the serpent was cursed to roam the earth on his belly in Genesis. Revelation just references what happened at the cross and at the creation of the world together for narrative effect because the cross made manifest what was already done from the beginning. In regard to Anakim, it is understood they were Nephilim, but so were those before the flood that were born of the line of Seth and Cain. Nephilim had spiritual authority/influences, and the book of Enoch should be considered a prophetic book like Revelation, with the heights of the giants representing the number of spirits they thought they controlled (or were controlled by).

@kenammi355

But friend, there’s no indication that “angels are sent in various forms.” “The verse also says servants are sent as fire” within the context of correlations to natural phenomena, not that they appear as a spark that burns oxygen—such is why there’s no example of that.

The “burning bush” was a manifestation of God’s presence, not an Angel.

Also, you said, “sent as fire” but the phrase is, “makes…fire.”

There’s no indication that, “Angels don’t always appear in physical bodies.”

If you argue about the pillars then you should argue like unto the burning bush: the fire wasn’t God, it was a symbolic manifestation of His presence so likewise, if you want to go that way, the pillars were symbolic manifestations but not the physical bodies of Angels.

Hebrews 1 isn’t about Angelology, it’s about Jesus so no Angel is God’s son in the self-same manner as Jesus is since Jesus is uniquely authoritative. Or, do you deny that Christians are sons of God because, after all, Jesus is God’s “only” begotten Son?

“Elisha’s eyes…saw the angels in human forms” since that’s how they look and “his eyes were made able to see the spirit world” since Angels can choose to be seen or not: visible or invisible, appear or disappear.

You assert, “Revelation…gives angels human forms only as a means of a vision” but there’s no indication of that.

How could Anakim be Nephilim since Anakim are Anakim and Nephilim are Nephilim? See, this is a case of categories and the law of identity?

Anakim were named after a man named Anak and lived exclusively post-flood.

Nephilim were half-Angel and half-human and lived exclusively pre-flood.

The ONLY correlation between Anakim is one single sentence only from non-LXX versions of an “evil report” by unreliable guys whom God rebuked (Num 13:33) wherein a correlation is merely asserted.

As for “the book of Enoch”: which one? 1 Enoch is Bible contradicting folklore from centuries, if not millennia, after the Torah, see my book, “In Consideration of the Book(s) of Enoch.”

As for “giants,” the key questions are:

What’s the usage of the vague, generic, subjective, multi-usage and modern English word “giants” in English Bibles?

What’s your usage of the vague, generic, subjective, multi -usage and modern English word “giants”?

Do those two usages agree?

@deepwaters2334

Does God not use his angels to speak for him? That is what angels always bring: messages from God: Hebrews 1:1-2 KJV

[1] God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, [2] hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

See, God speaks through angels and prophets. Also, Hebrews 1 goes on to say that Angels are spirits:

Hebrews 1:13-14 KJV

[13] But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, Until I make thine enemies thy footstool? [14] Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

Again, Hebrews 2 says it clearly that the word was revealed in various times and ways through angels, and that though we are lower now, we shall be raised up to equal status with Jesus:

Hebrews 2:1-14 KJV

[1] Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip. [2] For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; [3] how shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; [4] God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will? [5] For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak. [6] But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? Or the son of man, that thou visitest him? [7] Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; Thou crownedst him with glory and honour, And didst set him over the works of thy hands: [8] Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. [9] But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. [10] For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. [11] For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, [12] saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, In the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee. [13] And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me. [14] Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

How could angels breed with humans, when humans are a separate kind of creature?

I refer to the book of 1 Enoch (there are three books) that we have today that says that Nephilim were thousands of feet tall (http://www.refuteit.com/article-blog/4500-foot-giants-how-did-you-come-up-with-that-number). This is clearly symbolism for spiritual affiliation. Even II Peter and Jude, which many claim support the book Enoch do not say the book is literal, but that Enoch was the seventh son of prophecy: Jude 1:14-16 KJV

[14] And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, [15] to execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. [16] These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men’s persons in admiration because of advantage.

This further confirms that the Book of Enoch should be considered a book of prophecy, not literal history like the Torah, and the heights of the giants are metaphorical references to the angels/spirits they were influenced by and the kingdoms they controlled.

@kenammi355

Friend, you’re going in circles at this point since I already noted that “Hebrews 1 goes on to say that Angels are spirits” in the one version that you’re reading in English. I already told you, “Well friend, it’s only the case that ‘Hebrews 1 clearly shows that Spirts are angels’ in the version that you’re reading: many have it as ‘winds.’ And they don’t have it that way arbitrarily but because it’s in Heb 1 since Heb 1 quoting and playing off of Ps 104:4 where, again, some have ‘spirits’ but some rightly have ‘winds’ and ‘winds’ is correct since it’s keeping with the context of the Ps which contains constant correlations to natural phenomena.”

Moreover, as I also already told you, “Angels are always described as looking like human males, performing physical actions, and without indication that such isn’t their ontology.”

As for, “How could angels breed with humans, when humans are a separate kind of creature?” well, Angels are always described as looking like human males, we were created “a little lower” than them, and we can reproduce with them so, by definition, we’re of the same basic “kind.”

“the” Bible contradicting folkloric “book of 1 Enoch” from centuries, if not millennia after the Torah, “says that Nephilim were” 3,000 ells/MILES tall which is great folklore but poor reality.

Since you merely assert the non sequitur that “II Peter and Jude, which many claim support the book Enoch do not say the book is literal” then you must think the same of Greek poets since Paul quotes them.

@deepwaters2334

So, how do you explain the last verse of Hebrews 1, which literally says that Angels are merely spirits, sent to those who are about to inherit salvation? How do you explain Hebrews 2 that says though Jesus was made a little lower than the angels, he has been raised above them, and that we will be welcomed by Christ as brothers and sisters, necessarily making us above the angels and equal to Christ as children of God as well? How do you reconcile that the sons of God are the ones who bred with the daughters of men, when we know the sons of God are the redeemed christians, and that no angel has ever been called the son of God (Hebrews 1:5), only human beings? Therefore, the sons of God must be the redeemed children of God, that is, most likely the line of Seth, whose geneology was just listed immediately before this passage. The evidence for the sons of God being human beings that are Christians (or redeemed/righteous) is overwhelming, and many early Christians believed exactly this. This point I am making about the book of Enoch is not that it is totally false, but that it should be used non-literally like the book of Revelation or Daniel. Would you read these prophecies literally? No; there is extreme symbolism, which is my point about the book of Enoch. I could very well argue you are walking in circles; no offense.

@kenammi355

I will rephrase your question, “So, how do you explain the last verse of Hebrews 1, which” in the one English version that I subjectively prefer to read, “literally says that Angels are merely spirits…”

Other versions right have it as “winds” and that’s right because Heb 1 is quoting Psalm 104:4 which some versions rightly have as “winds” and that’s right because the whole context of the whole Psalm is constant correlations to natural phenomena.

Seach online for, “biblegateway psalm 104:4” and do the same for Heb: when you look up one single verse, you’ll see a link beneath it that will show you how it reads in MANY English versions.

As for your Hebrews 2 question, sorry but I don’t even see what, “making us above the angels” has to do with this discussion.

That “sons of God are the redeemed christians” is myopic: no one who read God’s word for millennia before AD days would have even imagined any such thing. Job 38:7, as one example, shows us that “sons of God” can refer to non-human beings (which the LXX has as “Angelos”).

As for, “no angel has ever been called the son of God (Hebrews 1:5)” well, the context isn’t about Angelology, it’s about Jesus so God never called the Angels His sons like unto the manner in which Jesus is His Son since He’s uniquely authoritative. Or, will you deny that Christians are God’s sons because, after all, Jesus is God’s ONLY begotten Son?

So, what you’re saying is that, “redeemed children of God” were such terrible sinners that their sin (whatever it was) served as the premise for the flood—that’s rather odd.

That brought the discussion to and end as no more replies were forthcoming.

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