We continue, from part 1, part 2, part 3, part 4, considering pop-research on the issue of the historical Jesus and Jesus mythicism with regards to some Atheists who have taken to the utterly radical view that Jesus never even existed. I have been considering Michael Paulkovich and Raphael Lataster and, in this case, I got into a comment section discussion within an article written by YouTube celebrity Atheist AaronRa that was simply titled “Jesus never existed” November 3, 2015 AD.
See my article Historical Jesus – two centuries worth of citations wherein I chronicled 205 texts that reference Jesus dating from pre 70 AD to 200-250 AD
Twice I had asked the Jewish person lorasinger for specific citations to primary source material with regard to Jesus being like mythical figures. The only reply I received was a generic one to the effect that someone else must have the evidence. I also directed them to Genesis 18 with regards to their repeated claim that, for example, “There are no men gods in Judaism and that leaves only the pagans.” Here was lorasinger’s reply (notice that they ignore Genesis 18):
John 1:18: No man hath seen God at any time
Exodus33:20: And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and liveSo those verses make it crystal clear that no man has seen God at any time, and that no man can see his face, and if any do they shall then die.
Here is my reply:
Friend, you are taking a very, very literalist view on this point and actually the problem is not the literalism but your interpretation that is based on fragments of thoughts (two disconnected verses alone) rather than on the greater context which is to include more of, if not all of, that which the Tanakh states on the matter.
Here are some more to consider off the top of my head (and please interact with the text rather than focusing on seeking to contradict me at all cost):
1 Kings 19 wherein Elijah is told by God, “Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the LORD.’ And, behold, the LORD passed by.”
Isaiah 6 “In the year that king Uzziah died I saw the Lord sitting upon a throne high and lifted up…Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts.”
Thus, there seems to be a difference between withholding God’s nature and essence as no one can do and live versus having encounters with Him as the one you ignored with Abraham. But why listen to me?
Better listen to God Himself in Exodus 33, “the LORD spoke unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend…he [Moses] said: ‘Show me, I pray Thee, Thy glory.’ And He [God] said: ‘I will make all My goodness pass before thee…Thou canst not see My face, for man shall not see Me and live.’ And the LORD said: ‘Behold, there is a place by Me, and thou shalt stand upon the rock. And it shall come to pass, while My glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a cleft of the rock, and will cover thee with My hand until I have passed by. And I will take away My hand, and thou shalt see My back; but My face shall not be seen.’”
You see, wherever you got your partial quotation from Exodus 33:20 did not prepare you to deal with the fuller context as simply quoting verse 20 was insufficient and un-contextual. The ancient sages and modern Rabbis are not foolish enough to think that a text that tells us within a few verse that “the LORD spoke unto Moses face to face” and that “Thou canst not see My face…My face shall not be seen” is nonsensical or problematic. Clearly, in one sense, the LORD spoke unto Moses face to face but in another sense he did not and could not.
Here is lorasinger’s reply:
You are a Christian apologist with a heritage in Judaism which you gave up to become a pagan. You are now a Christian and argue their cause. Sorry, Ken, pagan man gods and the nonsense that goes are simply that – pagan nonsense.
Thus, they ignore the discussion at hand and decide to take personal aim at me even whilst repeating the claim about Pagan man gods and ignoring Genesis 18 wherein the one true living God Himself appears to Abraham as a man.
In the next segment I will conclude with lorasinger’s discussion with me about the question, “Who is a Jew?”
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