Such was the name of a YouTube channel and one of their videos which led to this discussion.
@oscargordon
I find it interesting that the oldest copies of Daniel has Goliath as four cubits and a span, or 6′ 9″. Pretty tall compare to what the average person would have been with Bronze Age nutrition but not that impressive, considering Andre the Giant was 7′ 4″ and 520 lbs.. By the 10th century Masoretic text that most Bible translations use, Goliath became 6 cubits and a span or 9′ 9″ tall.
@theonlylolking
Man, sisters these days are not even impressed with being 6’9″. It is so over bros.
@mirandagoldstine8548
I actually like to say the Nephilim are my distant ancestors. You see I have some tall ancestors on my dad’s side. To be specific the tallest man in my family was between (I could be mistaken) 6’6” and 6’8”. This ancestor lived during the 19th century when the average male was 5’8”. So maybe the Nephilim were just people who were unusually tall for the time period.
@oscargordon
I wonder if any of the lady angels came down for breeding purposes because I do appreciate the tall ones.
@kenammi355
Before the Masoretic text, the earlier LXX and the earlier Dead Sea Scrolls and the earlier Flavius Josephus, which is the preponderance of the earliest data, all have him at four cubits and a span, just shy of 7 ft.—subjective to the average Israelite male who was 5.0-5.3 ft. in those days.
@kenammi355
If Nephilim are your distant ancestors then you must think that God failed. Also, we’ve no reliable physical description of them so you can’t correlate any sort of height to them.
@kenammi355
Angels are always described as looking just like human males.
@oscargordon
Sometimes yes, sometimes in the story sometimes people just thought they were just mundane humans, at other times when an angel appears, the human does the whole “fear and trembling” business with the angel telling them not to be afraid.
And don’t get started on Revelation’s description of angels or do an image search on “Biblically accurate angels”.
@oscargordon
This is not the only case where the ‘modern” 10th century MT text exaggerates from the earlier texts that were translated from the now lost original Hebrew texts.
I once saw a list of where the MT dramatically increases the number of body counts and such from earlier texts.
@kenammi355
“an image search on ‘Biblically accurate angels’” results in biblically inaccurate Angels. But as for the “fear not” thing: when you read those few instances, it’s a case of a person being alone and then a dude is suddenly right there so it’s shock.
@oscargordon
What, you find it a shock and are fearful when someone walks up to you and says hi, or you enter a room and there is already someone their? Weird.
So you have seen an angel so that you know what they look like? Is there not a single example in Google images that looks like what you saw?
@kenammi355
I’m not interested in you moving the goalpost but will note that yes, of course I would be shocked and fearful if I knew that I was alone in a room or home or a field and someone suddenly appeared there> It’s just that you invented, “when someone walks up” and also, this has nothing to do with my so my perceived subjective reaction is irrelevant.
Rather than arguing, you could have just looked up the very, very few (what, 3 maybe) instances and note that the scenario is as I have stated it.
I’m unsure why you ask, “So you have seen an angel so that you know what they look like?” since Angels look just like human males and, “some have entertained angels unawares” (Hebrews 13:2). The only exception seems to be when they are in their natural, glorified (I suppose we could call it) state and are like a perfect version of us: clean pores and all.
@oscargordon
I’m sorry, I thought you knew for certain what angels look like because you had actually seen one. My bad. I think the problem is that since angels don’t really exist, the various Bible authors could make their messengers from Yahweh look like anything from a mundane human to a terrifying creature just as Yahweh could walk and talk with some of the patriarchs as a normal human or appear as flaming shrubbery.
@kenammi355
Insure why you thought that. But perhaps I have and perhaps you have as well.
Now, you merely asserted and positive affirmation with which you began as a conclusion based on hidden assumptions that, “angels don’t really exist” so how do you know that and, more importantly, what would it matter, on your worldview?
You say, “the various Bible authors could make their messengers from Yahweh look like anything…” but I’m unaware of any such thing.
@oscargordon
Fair enough. Let me rephrase that. There is zero credible evidence for the existence of angels outside of human imagination. The only thing I know about how angels look is from the artwork produced by human imagination.
@kenammi355
That’s too bad then since most of that artwork is inaccurate.
@oscargordon
Acknowledging again that in the stories, sometimes angels appeared as mundane humans, let me ask again. How is it that you know what they really look like and all of the artists over the centuries are totally wrong?
@kenammi355
“How is it that you know what they really look like”: I’m only telling you what is revealed in the Bible.
“all of the artists over the centuries are totally wrong”: you will have to ask whoever thinks that.
That brought the discussion to and end as no more replies were forthcoming.
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