This discussion took placed due to the video GIANTS of Zambujeiro!!
Terry Sigmon commented
I have followed you for years from the first Watchers till Watchers 10 and other seminars. When you and Steve Quayle get together it’s like a double shot of information. Thank you L.A. for all you do. God bless you my friend.
I, Ken Ammi, replied
When LA and Steve Quayle get together it’s like a double shot of mis-information
dooglitas asked
Exactly what “misinformation”? Can you prove it is misinformation?
Kathie Rouse chimed in with
Isn’t it odd that Steve Quayle apparently doesn’t believe dispensation, because he doesn’t believe there will be a pre-Tribulation Rapture? In fact, he doesn’t think there will be a Rapture at all! But L.A. believes there will be the pre-Tribulation Rapture. I don’t see how two men with opposing views like this can get along well together.
dooglitas
They probably just avoid discussing those issues. I don’t think they spend a lot of time together.
cogit8able noted
The rapture is not very well defined in scripture. What little there is indicates only one second coming .Satan would just love to divide us all on this topic but it’s not worth fighting over Jesus comes when Jesus comes. And we don’t get to know the day or the hour so so right in scripture.Matthew 24 would indicate they were going to suffer some tribulation. So I think that rules out a pre-TRIB rapture.
Ken Ammi @dooglitas
Sure I can, I’ve written some nine books about these issues. How about we start simply: LA asserts Nephilim were “giants” (even Gary Wayne admitted he doesn’t know how big they were–only after I asked him), and he claims he has their skulls, but he can only ever show us regular sized skulls. Now, why is that?
Ken Ammi also @dooglitas
This week I seem to be getting a lot of YT notifications of comments that I can’t find when I click on the link in my email so, just in case, I’ll reply to what I saw in the email:
I simply noted and asked, “LA asserts Nephilim were ‘giants’ (even Gary Wayne admitted he doesn’t know how big they were–only after I asked him), and he claims he has their skulls, but he can only ever show us regular sized skulls. Now, why is that?”
Rather than replying, you assert “you have not shown that anything that LA or Steve have said is misinformation, much less that everything they say is misinformation” but that’s the discussion we were having before you ignore it.
Now, you say that, “AS for nephilim being giants, the Bible gives actual sizes of King Og and Goliath”:
1. Both of them were Rephaim, not Nephilim.
2. The Bible never gives actual size of King Og.
3. Most reliably, based on the preponderance of the earliest texts, Goliath was just shy of 7 ft.
When you say, “They were giants” you don’t seem to mean what English Bibles mean when they use the generic, vague, subjective, multi-usage, and undefined modern English word “giants.”
Sure, in a way, “The book of Enoch describes them more thoroughly” but that text:
1. Is from millennia after the Torah was written.
2. Has them being MILES tall—which is great folklore but poor reality.
3. Contradicts the Bible so much that I included an entire chapter’s worth of examples in my book, “In Consideration of the Book(s) of Enoch”: https://www.amazon.com/Ken-Ammi/e/B071NW4F4W%3Fref=dbs_a_mng_rwt_scns_share
4. Thus, we have no RELIABLE physical description of them.
Since you mixed Nephilim with Rephaim and “giants” then when you refer to, “evidence that these beings have existed” I’m unsure to whom you’re referring.
Please stop being worldly, and let’s sharpen iron with iron.
dooglitas
It is a fact that YT has been shadow-banning comments. That is the reason you get notifications but can’t see them in the comment section. I have seen this too. They never say why they are hiding the comments. They just do it. In this case I would guess it is because we are discussing the issue of giants. This is just another example of the ever-increasing push to censor free speech on the Internet.
Regarding my silence on part of your comment, I was not sure exactly what your point was, so I did not respond. As I take another look I understand better. Your statement that LA “asserts” that the nephilim are giants is misleading. Yes, he does state that SOME of the nephilim were giants, but if you follow his channel, you will find that he states that not all of them were giants. The skulls that he shows are interesting because they have definite non-human characteristics, such as the increased cranial capacity, the long, conical shape of some, a wider distance between the eye sockets than humans have, significantly larger eye orbits than humans, unusual (nonhuman) placement of the foramen magnum, etc. He has had various experts look at these skulls, and they have all agreed that there are significant deviations from normal human skulls. He has stated that it is HIS OPINION that these skulls are of nephilim origin.
As for your last comment, your arguments seem impressive on the surface, but they contain several logical fallacies and errors.
1. Your distinction between “rephaim” and “nephilim” is a distinction without a difference. They are two words used to describe the same entities.
In Numbers 13:33 we see that the Israeliets “saw the giants (Heb: nephilim), the sons of Anak. In Deut 2:11 we see another tribe mentioned. It is said that they were “known as giants (Heb: “raphaim”), AS THE ANAKIM (i.e., sons of Anak). In these two passages we see the group called Anakim, or sons of Anak, called both raphaim and nephilim. In both passages, many English translations translate both terms as “giants.” The two words simply refer to different characteristics of these beings.
2. The fact that the Bible never gives an actual size for King Og is not really relevant. It does give the dimensions of his bed, which is approximately 15 feet long. The mention of the bed is obviously for the purpose of demonstrating the man’s size. The statement that it was made of iron further accentuates his massiveness.
3. The height discrepancy between the Masoretic text and the Dead Sea Scrolls is a subject of much debate and is a complex issue. However, it is important to note that King Saul is described as being a man of exceptional height, being taller than all the men of Israel by more than a head. We don’t know what his height was, but if we assume that tallest Israelite was, say, six feet tall, that would make Saul close to 7 feet tall, which is remarkable. As tall as Saul was, it is apparent that Goliath was significantly bigger than Saul, as Saul was “greatly afraid” of this being. Goliath’s coat of mail weighed about 128 pounds, and just the head of his spear weighed nearly 17 pounds. It would be extremely difficult for even an exceptionally strong human to walk around, much less wage war, in a suit of chain mail that weighed so much, and wielding a spear with a 17-pound head would be nearly impossible for any human being. All these facts together would strongly suggest that the textual variant stating that Goliath was only 4 cubits and a span is likely the one in error.
Regarding your arguments concerning the book of Enoch, you make several misleading points.
1. The writing date of the Book of Enoch cannot be determined. We do not have enough historical or textual evidence to date it accurately. It is believed by many scholars that the book has additions to it which were not part of the original text. There is no really good reason to assume that the book was not originally written by Enoch during his lifetime before the flood. Your statement that it was written “millennia after the Torah was written” is unsubstantiated. It is an opinion.
2. The statement about the nephilim being described as “miles tall” is, first of all, somewhat of an exaggeration. In the Ethiopic text, it does give an enormous height, but it is not “miles tall,” but rather somewhat less than ONE mile tall. However, that passage in the Greek text from the Dead Sea Scrolls lacks that statement about their height and only says that they were exceptionally big.
3. Your claim that the Book of Enoch is full of contradictions to the Bible is, I think, an exaggeration, and it is also irrelevant. I have tried to research the issue of alleged “contradictions” between Enoch and the Bible, and I could find very little to support that claim. I found one source which gives a litany of alleged “contradictions,” but when I examined each claim, they were either the result of misinterpretations of the Enochian text or exaggerations.
That being said, it is really an irrelevant point, since supposed contradictions to the Bible are only significant in the argument as to the canonicity of the Book of Enoch. I have not claimed it is, or should be, a canonical biblical writing, only as a historical reference, and the fact of it’s dealing with the issue at hand.
4. It is not exactly true that we have no description of them. We are told that many of them (if not all) had six fingers and six toes on each hand and foot, and while there is no exact height given, it is obvious from various texts in both Enoch and the Bible that they were of exceptional height and massiveness. The Israelites stated that “we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.” You can say that this is hyperbole, but there is no real reason to assume that. The Israelites were indeed terrified of these beings. If they were only tall humans, it is not likely that they would elicit such a degree of terror. Many preachers have assumed that the reaction of the Israelites was simply one of cowardice and not based on a very real threat of extraordinary form. The problem was not that they were cowards. The problem was that they were lacking faith in God’s power to defeat these enemies. The issue was faith, not cowardice.
All that being said, there is a vast amount of evidence from extrabiblical sources that indicates the existence of these “giants.” And to be clear, when I say “giants,” I am talking about beings who are of a height that is beyond that of human beings, some of which are of enormous size. There is no standard height for them. They varied greatly. In the time before the flood it is likely that they were much bigger than the giants that existed after the flood. Here are some of the evidences:
1. Legends of exceptionally large giants exist in virtually every culture of humanity. Most of the Native American tribes have many stories of giants who were of immense size, not only height but also massiveness. They were usually described as having red hair and having six fingers on each hand and six toes on each foot and having double rows of teeth. They were also described as being cannibals, regularly consuming normal human beings for food.
2. There have been well over 1000 American news stories in the past of gigantic skeletons being discovered, often in mounds of the so-called “mound builders.” In every case, those bones were eventually confiscated either by some govt agents or someone from the Smithsonian Institute. Some of these news storied were accompanied by photos. There have been such finds in many places around the world with the same story of confiscation, often by officers representing the Vatican. This is particularly true in Sardinia, where thousands of these bones have been unearthed, and for which there are numerous eyewitnesses.
3. There have been more modern sightings of such beings and some interesting videos showing such beings usually on tops of mountains or hills.
4. There are numerous examples of enormous human-like footprints preserved in sedimentary rocks in various places around the world, including the US, India, and South Africa. There are also some hand prints of extreme size in sedimentary rocks.
5. There are many petroglyphs and other drawings and paintings around the world depicting humanoid beings of exceptional height.
Since you have written so many books on this topic, I doubt that any amount of evidence would ever change your mind. You have a great deal of investment in your unbelief in the existence of giants. So I suppose it was, in the end, a waste of my time to even respond to your comment. But I did respond anyway. In the end, there is no really good reason to doubt the existence of these beings. Such skepticism is more a result of a naturalistic/materialistic/evolutionary worldview than a result of actual evidence or the lack thereof.
Ken Ammi
That he claims to know that ANY Nephilim were “giants” is problematic enough: even Gary Wayne admitted he doesn’t know how big they were when I asked him about it.
The skulls MAY show non-human characteristics but since we’ve no reliable physical description of Nephilim, we can’t claim that those are their skulls thus, indeed, it’s just “HIS OPINION” and nothing more whatsoever.
Rephaim were strictly post-flood humans, Nephilim were strictly pre-flood hybrids so that’s the world of a difference.
But note how you seek to abscond from those facts: you reply exclusively on one single verse, stated within an evil report, by utterly unreliable guys, whom God rebuked. And you appealed to one verse about Anakim, not all Rephaim. Also, you appealed to a verse that doesn’t even mention Anakim in the LXX.
You assert, “In Numbers 13:33 we see that the Israeliets ‘saw the giants…’” but that’s not in the verse. Rather, 10 unreliable guys merely asserted that they saw them, and the Israelites believed them.
Those guys made up a tall tale about “Nephilim.” You then jump to Deut 2 which is about “Rephaim” so you already changed contexts.
For some strange reason, you seem to want a very tall Og but your logic is flawed since you ignore the cultural and historical and archeological context: you can’t just say “The mention of the bed is obviously for the purpose of demonstrating the man’s size” since you can’t know that, what your bed size says about your personal size has nothing to do with the bed of an ancient king living in luxury, and a bed of such dimensions was found at the Etemenanki ziggurat and it wasn’t slept on but was a ritual object upon which supposed gods and alleged goddesses mate.
You say “We don’t know what his [Saul’s] height was” which is true but we know the average Israelite male was 5.0-5.3 ft in those days.
Since you’re fixated on tall tales, you subjectively say, “it is apparent that Goliath was significantly bigger than Saul, as Saul was ‘greatly afraid’”—and you dehumanize him as a “being”—but you say that only due to ignoring the text: the issue was that he was a “champion”: a trained, experienced, and successful warrior.
As for what you claim to know he couldn’t do: he had a guy helping him and strong humans who are around 6 ft. can lift 1,000 lbs.—just search for strongman or weight-lifting competitions. Besides, regular guy Benaiah successfully wielded a spear just like Goliath’s in hand-to-hand combat (2 Samuel 23:21).
We can attempt to ascertain when 1 Enoch was written by when it first appears—with zero reference to it from anyone at any time prior. Thus, when all indications are that “it was written ‘millennia after the Torah was written’” we should assume that “it was written ‘millennia after the Torah was written’” until it can be shows otherwise: note that there are 33 “lost books” mentioned in the Bible and 1 Enoch isn’t one of them.
Miles tall is accurate in terms of what the text states when you calculate the 3,000 ells. I published the calculations in my book “In Consideration of the Book(s) of Enoch” which is where I included a whole chapter’s worth of examples of how it contradicts the Bible.
I never said, “we have no description of” Nephilim rather, I said, we have no reliable description of them. Yet, when you refer to “many of them (if not all) had six fingers and six toes”: you are confusing Rephaim with Nephilim but even then, there’s no indication of “many” but of only one single Repha—period.
Again, you say, “The Israelites stated that ‘we were in our own sight as grasshoppers…’” but that was the utterly unreliable guys on whom you rely 100%–even though they contradicted Moses, Joshua, Caleb, God, and the rest of the whole Bible.
As for “beings who are of a height that is beyond that of human beings” well, that’s a different issues altogether: my point is just that you can’t assert that those were Nephilim nor related to Nephilim. Thus, when you refer to my (supposed) “unbelief in the existence of giants” I challenge you do quote me even one single time expressing any such unbelief in any of my books, articles, videos, interviews, debates, etc., etc., etc.
Thus, when you list your “evidences,” those examples are irrelevant—and also very subjective, generic, etc. For example, Native American are likely relating cultural memories of encountering Vikings: tall, White, red haired, etc.
Thus, this has nothing to do with “Since you have written so many books on this topic, I doubt that any amount of evidence would ever change” my mind since I’ve discussed these very same issues with literally hundreds of people and they make the same basic level errors as you do.
Please understand that your entire post-flood Nephilology is literally based on one single—VERY problematic—verse.
But since you have looked into this and argued it so much, I doubt that any amount of evidence would ever change your mind. You have a great deal of investment in your tall tales. So I suppose it was, in the end, a waste of my time to even respond to your comment. But I did respond anyway. In the end, there is really good reason to accurately represent God’s word. Such lack of engaging His word as inspired and preserved is more a result of a naturalistic/materialistic/evolutionary worldview than a result of actual evidence or the lack thereof.
dooglitas
Ken Ammi You say: “That he claims to know that ANY Nephilim were “giants” is problematic enough: even Gary Wayne admitted he doesn’t know how big they were when I asked him about it.” I have no idea why it is “problematic.” Only to you perhaps. And I have no idea why Gary Wayne is important in this conversation. What he admitted or didn’t admit is irrelevant. Also, not knowing HOW big they were does not mean they were not giants. Certainly they were not all the same height. So how big they were varied. The Rephaim are only mentioned in a post-flood context in the Bible. However, you are incorrect that the nephiim were “strictly” pre-flood hybrids. I don’t think you read my comment or the scriptures I gave you. The Anakim were referred to as both rephaim AND nephilim. In Numbers 13:33, the Anakim were called NEPHLIM. In Deut. 2:11 the Anakim were called rephaim. The same post-flood people were referred to by BOTH the name “rephaim” AND “nephilim.” Your statement on this fact is erroneous. It is difficult to take the rest of your “arguments” seriously. I’m not going to respond to the rest of your comment. It is obvious that you are determined to stick to your point no matter what anyone says. Like I said, the fact that you have written books on this precludes the possibility of anyone ever changing your mind. You can deny it, but that is the truth. I have no idea why you are skeptical about this. Your arguments are all dismissive and without any real logical validity. You simply don’t want to accept the reality of giants and that’s it. Perhaps if you met one and it thrust you through with it’s stave you would believe–oh, wait, you would be dead. So, even then you wouldn’t believe it. My whole original point was to argue against your baseless accusation that L.A. Marzulli and Steve Quayle were dispensing “misinformation.” Just because you are a skeptic and disbelieve in giants having existed does not make them dispensers of “misinformation.” Just because you don’t agree with something, that does not make it “misinformation.” You state: “But since you have looked into this and argued it so much, I doubt that any amount of evidence would ever change your mind. You have a great deal of investment in your tall tales.” I have nothing invested in this topic other than time. I have not written books that I sell and make money on. So, no, I do not have any kind of significant “investment’ in the topic. I just happen to believe in God’s word as true. Calling them “tall tales” is not a valid argument. It is a fallacious one. Ridicule is not a logically valid argument. it is a fallacious one. Good day. Believe what you want—or don’t believe it. I don’t care. I just don’t like the way you smear other people’s reputations with false accusations. Just because you disagree with LA Marzulli doesn’t give you the right to impugn his character.
Ken Ammi
Well, it’s problematic to refer to someone’s height when you don’t know their height.
Indeed, “not knowing HOW big they were does not mean they were not giants” but not knowing how big they were means we need not bother discussing their height at all since it’s a missing data point: why not speak of them in terms of being little people instead?
Now, you say “how big they were varied” but how do you know that at all?
Friend, the one and only reason why you think there were post-flood Nephilim (by any other name) and that they were (somehow) related to Anakim and that they were very, very tall (even if just some of them) is due to one single sentence in an evil report spoken by utterly unreliable guys whom God rebuked. I’ll side with God, why do you believe the guys whom He rebuked. That’s part of why you have no other options when attempting to get Nephilim past the flood (which implies that God failed). I also noted that you’re not doing to get Anakim (and therefore no Rephaim) related to Nephilim in the LXX.
It is obvious that you are determined to stick to your point no matter what anyone says. Like I said, the fact that you have argued this precludes the possibility of anyone ever changing your mind. You can deny it, but that is the truth. I have no idea why you are skeptical about this. Your arguments are all dismissive and without any real logical validity.
But you’re not even engaging what I stated since I specifically noted, “when you refer to my (supposed) ‘unbelief in the existence of giants’ I challenge you do quote me even one single time expressing any such unbelief in any of my books, articles, videos, interviews, debates, etc., etc., etc.” but rather than doing that, you just double down by writing, “You simply don’t want to accept the reality of giants and that’s it…you are a skeptic and disbelieve in giants having existed”
I have proved time and again—in comments, articles, videos, and books, that L.A. Marzulli and Steve Quayle were dispensing “misinformation” and just because you bought into their un-biblical tall tales doesn’t mean I’m wrong.
Now, since I call them tall tales and give plenty of argumentation based on facts backed by evidence that such is the case, then categorizing that as ridicule or smear is just worldly.
It’s sad that you’re so very worldly that you don’t even want to accept that you keep making accusations against me that I already proved where inaccurate—please repent.
dooglitas
Like I said, I am wasting my time. You are obviously determined to stick to your guns. As I said, you have a lot of baggage behind your opinion. Saying you have proven “in comments, articles, videos, and books” that Steve Quayle and LA Marzullli are dispensing misinformation is a meaningless comment. You have certainly not proven it in this thread, and I have not read all you have written to validate what you have said. You have given no specific references where I could go to see your alleged proof. I doubt you have spent more than 10 minutes reading or listening to either one of those men.
You state: “It’s sad that you’re so very worldly that you don’t even want to accept that you keep making accusations against me that I already proved where inaccurate—please repent.”
This is the height of self-righteousness. Perhaps you should repent.
Ken Ammi
I’m unsure why you’re being so very, very worldly and dismissive—except, perhaps, that you now realize that after years of listening to the pop-researchers, they have left you unable to deal with the actual facts.
You twice asserted that I made a certain claim, I asked for evidence, you have none. And you think it’s “the height of self-righteousness” to ask you to repent when you’re caught making false accusations: friend, please step away from the theo-sci-fi and focus on your walk with the LORD.
You are obviously determined to stick to your guns. As I said, you have a lot of baggage behind your opinion.
You also seem to want to fool yourself, I noted they both teach post-flood Nephilim but the Bible doesn’t and all you, or they, can do is appeal to one single verse spoken by utterly unreliable guys whom God rebuked.
You then take it upon yourself you “doubt you have spent more than 10 minutes reading or listening to either one of those men” when I literally wrote a book critiquing them after a tremendous amount of time of considering their assertions—see my book “Nephilim and Giants As Per Pop-Researchers: A comprehensive consideration of the claims of I.D.E. Thomas, Chuck Missler, Dante Fortson, Derek Gilbert, Brian Godawa, Patrick Heron, Thomas Horn, Ken Johnson, L.A. Marzulli, Josh Peck, CK Quarterman, Steve Quayle, Rob Skiba, Gary Wayne, Jim Wilhelmsen, et al.”
That’s how I discovered that Quayle is a plagiarist, by the way.
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