Nephilim discussion with some jerks on Goliath being a quasi-divine giants, 3 of 9

Continuing a discussion that took place during a live chat to a video by Rob Rowe, with whom I have had a discussion (see this video).

 

Picking up where we left off in the previous segment.

 

Chaos Kampf

So what would his size be? I’ve read some scholars who defend the original Masoretic reading. i.e 9’9

 

Ken Ammi @Hhhut Hhhjj

I agree. Review the chat, I was focusing on a topic but Chaos was instantly worldly.

 

Chaos Kampf

perhaps but he unnecessarily tries to call out people as pseuds or fringe nephilim hunters (like Brian Godawa – who is quite rational)

 

Brian Godawa maybe quite rational but that does not make him infallible and I critiqued his Nephilim views in my book Nephilim and Giants As Per Pop-Researchers.

 

Ken Ammi

Bottom line: Gen 6:4 is reliable & tells us precious little about Nephilim. Num 13:32-33 is not reliable & makes 4 claims about which the whole entire rest of the Bible knows nothing at all.

 

Chaos Kampf

But that’s completely false lol.

 

Chaos Kampf

Numbers 13:33 actually has strong parallels with Homeric Myth, and the presence of the Rephaim can tell us a lot about Mediterranean hero cults and giant mythology.

 

Now we see the premise upon which Chaos was calling me duplicitous/deceitful since “that’s completely false lol” but it is not and no one was able to prove otherwise in part because it is accurate and in part because no matter how many times I emphasized this, no one even attempted to deal with it.

Now, overall, I would note that the 10 rebuked spies make six claims about which the whole rest of the Bible knows nothing:

1) That they would be unable to conquer the land.

2) That it was a bad land that “eateth up its inhabitants.”

3) That all of the people who lived therein—Anakim,

Amalekites, Hittites, Jebusites, Amorites, and Canaanites—were of “great stature.” Some were “tall,” as if that matters, but there is no indication that they were all of “great stature” (which is as vague, generic, subjective and undefined as “tall” or “giants”).

4) That there was such a thing as post-flood Nephilim.

5) That Anakim were related to them.

6) That Nephilim were very, very tall.

Now, that the evil report “has strong parallels with Homeric Myth” is chronologically and theologically irrelevant: Homer lived circa half a millennia after the Book of Numbers was written (but a lot of this pertains to the dating game) so may have been inspired by it.

As for that “Rephaim can tell us a lot about Mediterranean hero cults and giant mythology,” I comment on this later.

 

Picking back up with a side discussion

Rev. Elation @kile Myers

so David knew the conquest and reasons for avoiding some groups and wiping out others. he knew of the Nephilim and he knew the philistine heritage. also, his might men killed the rest

 

I will get to this eventually, in short, of course, there is no indication of any such thing: this is the sort of thing that post-flood Nephilim believer just invent.

 

At this point, as I waited for someone to reply, I began peppering comments.

 

Ken Ammi

Nephilim did not make it past the flood, did not return, & never will: in any way, shape, or form. That’s part of why no one post-flood is related to them.

 

Rev. Elation @kile Myers

These four were descendants of Rapha in Gath, and they fell at the hands of David and his men. – 2 Samuel 21:22 look and see. they knew about the giants. you didn’t.

 

Now the move is from “Repha” to “giant” and tying it to the earlier mere assertion about Nephilim correlation.

 

Chaos Kampf

Numbers 13:33 seems to disagree with you – as does Mesopotamian Myth which flat out states that the Apkallu survived post-flood.

 

The issue of Apkallu will come up again. For now, note that referring to “Apkallu” is like referring to “giants” only in that the first thing one should ask after hearing those terms is “To what/whom are you referring?” since it could be to a few different thing—different people/beings. See “Appendix: Review of Amar Annus’ On the Origin of Watchers” of my What Does the Bible Say About Giants and Nephilim? book.

 

You may have noted some “@” which are helpful in live YouTube chats so that everyone knows exactly who is being addressed. There are times when people do not use them—sometime I did not—so it is difficult to know if replies were to me or to other discussions that were occurring.

 

Kile myers

Completely missing the theological point of the bible and focusing on something that doesn’t matter

 

Ken Mc Cracken

Jesus said I give you authority to trample on serpents and scorpions’ in his response to the disciples. Symbolic language. The scorpions from the Abyss in Revelation are evil spirits fallen angels.

 

This too will come up later.

 

Chaos Kampf

Your mental gymnastics aren’t going to work.

 

Ken Ammi

Merely picking up the evil report & running with it means failing to interact with the chapter’s narrative.

 

Rev. Elation @kile Myers

the theological point is that God wanted the giants cleared out of the promised land.

 

Again, referring to “giants” goes not tell us if reference is being made to “Nephilim” or to “Rephaim” or just to whoever was of unusual height, or what.

 

Ken Ammi

The evil report was stated by unfaithful, disloyal, contradictory, embellishing spies who also contradict Moses, Caleb, Joshua, God, & the rest of the Bible.

 

Ken Ammi

In Deut 1:27-28 Moses relates the Num 13 events and utterly ignores the claim about Nephilim.

 

Ken Ammi

The LXX for the evil report does not even mention Anakim.

 

Chaos Kampf

Except other parts of the Torah give credence to the report, as they consistently imply that the Anakites were tall and strong. Moses declares it such, as does the book of Joshua.

 

Recall that I was no longer replying to Chaos. Nowhere else is credence give to the report. Sure, Anakites/Anakim were “tall” and “strong” but what of it? You see, Chaos is using the evil report to assert that any unusual height—even being “tall”—has something to do with Nephilim but the only way to even imagine (and imagination is all that it is) that Nephilim were unusually tall (to whatever level of unusualness) is because of the evil report. Thus, sure, “Moses declares” that Anakim were tall but never reliably relays that they were related to Nephilim, etc.

 

Rev. Elation

The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown. – Genesis 6:4

 

Ken Mc Cracken

[1 Enoch aka Ethipoc] Enoch isn’t scripture and is absurd in places Kile.

 

Ken Ammi @Rev. Elation

Indeed.

 

Brendan O’Brien

Enoch was referenced by the apostles and Paul

 

Ken Ammi @Ken Mc Cracken

Absurd and also contradicts the Bible so much that I wrote a whole chapter just on that in one of my books.

 

Ken Ammi @Brendan O’Brien

FYI: Jude quoted Enoch, Paul quoted Greek poets.

 

Ken Mc Cracken

Thats interesting Ken.

 

Ken Ammi

Picking up the evil report and running with it uncritically is how people end up building entire all-encompassing theories upon one single verse.

 

Kile myers @Rev Elation

where does Genesis 6:4 say they were half angelic super giant who ruled the earth ?

 

Chaos Kampf

Moses acknowledges the Anakites in Deut 9:2

 

Note how Chaos is consistently missing the point: the issue is post-flood Nephilim and that Anakim are not related to them—not just that reference is made to Anakim.

 

Ken Ammi @Ken Mc Cracken

Search for “In Consideration of the Book(s) of Enoch” maybe along with “truefreethinker.”

 

Evan J. Fishassuming

the “evil” of their report was also lies, when the “evil” need only be their mistrust and ignorance of God’s promise, is just as bad

 

This is a typical way to miss the point while it is accurate that such as the premise for the evil report, its contents are what makes the report itself inaccurate.

 

Brendan O’Brien

Enoch is referenced although not directly quoted (to my knowledge) in the New Testament

 

That matters not since, again, Paul quoted Greek poets but no one would assume that means they were inspired, belong in the canon, etc.

 

We will pick up from here in the next segment.

 

For more details, see my books about Angles, demons, Nephilim, “giants,” etc.

 

 

 

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