Mark Moore posted a video to his YouTube channel that is titled The Origin of Angels, Demons, and Spiritual Powers: Fact and Speculation.
Moore begins by noting, “People love to speculate about things like the origin of Angels and demons and
I have kind of avoided the topic because for one thing it does have to end in speculation” which is fair enough. When one scantly speaks on an issue they must all the more ensure that what they say is very accurate since it’s all that others will be able to go by when they consider what some said about any given subject.
He notes, “I’m going to have to speculate when it comes to the ultimate origin of demons and Angels because the Bible doesn’t tell us that” and when we’re told precious little about a subject, it’s incumbent upon us to handle the little data we have very carefully and precisely.
For some odd reason, he actually begins by commenting on, “animal suffering…the brain and the nervous system…mammal brains” and other un-contextual things that I will skip.
He ends up asking and answering, “Where does the Bible talk about the origin of Angels and demons? Well, honestly, it doesn’t I mean you could say that there’s, there’s a passage in Ezekiel about the prince of Tyre: I, myself, am not even convinced that that is speaking of Satan.”
I’m unsure what, “a passage in Ezekiel,” chap 38, has to do with Angels and demons since Satan’s a Cherub, not an Angel and hence, not a demon.
Mark Moore went on to say, “but all it says is that they were created, it doesn’t say when, doesn’t say
Where, and we would assume they were created, we assume that Angels and demons, and whatever other spiritual beings out there, were not self-existent.” I’m unsure where he thinks that Ezekiel wrote of the creation of Angels—or any other, “spiritual beings” for that matter.
He then moves on to, “the creation account” and how some would, “say, ‘Well, the best bet would be because stars are often equated or connected to Angels, on the fourth creation day it says He made the stars also, as an afterthought, when it says He made the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night, He made the stars also.’ So, we’re going to say that that’s when He created the Angels.”
His counter argument is that, “I’ve worked it out, a lot of theology where, uh, you know, the, ‘made’ is not the same as ‘created’: the Hebrew word for made, ‘asa’ is not the same word as in when God, ‘created’ the heavens and the Earth, ‘barah,’ two different words, they mean somewhat different things.”
A shorter and more direct route would be that we don’t know when Angels were created but at the very least, they witnessed the creation of the Earth: Job 38 has God asking and stating, “Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?…when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?” and the LXX has as, “Angeloi,” plural of, “Angelos,” for, “sons of God.”
Now, Moore then makes a statement that isn’t really contextual but offers a window into his own styled-speculation, “In the case of the Sun and the Moon and the stars, I think they were created when the heavens and the earth were created. What happens on the fourth day is they are set in place or appointed to do the job that God has called them to do. So, I do think there’s a connection between stars and Angels, I think the Sun is, they don’t call it the Sun because it’s only the Sun in the natural universe, in the spiritual realm it’s the living word of God, it’s the logos, He’s appointed to rule the day, and the written word which reflects his glory is the lesser light to rule the night, and then the Angels are the messengers who carry his word.”
Talk about speculation.
The issue is that he takes that eisegesis and so as to, for whatever reason, conclude that, “it all checks out, but it requires that, that not be the creation, the making is not the creation, it’s the appointing or setting in place: you put them in position but they were already here in some form.”
I’m not crazy about his premise but, again, Job 38 would have been a direct textual way to go.
He notes, “There is no place…[in] Genesis chapter 1…where it describes the creation of the Angels or, and, know, Angel is just a job, we’re talking about the spirit beings in the natural realm could be, they could be Angels, they could be demons, they could be other spiritual beings that do more than carry messages…”
Please be on the lookout for this common, and commonly missed, linguistics error since he jumped from, “spirit” to, “spiritual.” Yet, humans can be spiritual but aren’t spirits proper since a spirit proper has no flesh and bone. It’s also important to discern the distinction since, for example, demons are spirits proper but Angels are always described as looking like human males, performing physical actions, and without indication that such isn’t their ontology (see my book, What Does the Bible Say About Angels? A Styled Angelology and my article, Demons Ex Machina: What are Demons?).
This is also important since Mark Moore continues directly with, “Angels seem to have bodies, they’re not like our bodies, they are primarily spirits and they were described in Hebrews as ministering spirits and in the Old Testament. But they have bodies…are shown to have bodies…very much like ours.”
Please note that the concept that Angels are spirits proper seems to be based on two things: 1) one single English word, 2) utterly ignoring biblical Angelology, 3) man-made tradition.
And he hits upon this by myopically asserting, “they are primarily spirits and they were described in Hebrews as ministering spirits” but that’s vaguely generic.
Hebrews 1 is quoting Psalm 104:4 and is then applying it. There’s a reason why many versions right have the Psalm and Hebrews as reading, “winds” rather than, “spirits” and it’s not that the translators flipped a coin but that the Psalm’s entire context makes constant reference to natural phenomena and to a translation of, “winds” fits the context.
Review those readings of the Psalm here.
Review those readings of Hebrews here.
As for being embodies, he rightly notes, “demons are not. Have you noticed that in the Old Testament there’s no examples of the demons showing up in a physical form—unless you’re speaking of the dragon and the locust and the things in Revelation.” Yet, the dragon (Rev 12) is Satan and the locusts (Rev 9) are Angels so neither are demons.
At this point, Mark Moore asserts, “we who have faith in God we will be given resurrection bodies. The New Testament is very clear on that…it’s not just our spirits that are going to be resurrected, we’re going to
have bodies that are new and imperishable if we’re among the saved. The damned have no such promise, so what I say is that it seems like in the lake of fire, they wind up just as evil spirits, eventually indistinguishable from demons, all that is left of them is the evil desires.”
That’s doubly erroneous: all will be physically resurrected (“those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment” John 5:29) and there will not be any demons since demons are the disembodied spirits of physically incarcerated Angels and when the Rev 9 event takes place, the so called, “locusts,” the Angels, ascend out of the Abyss after their spirits reinhabit their bodies.
He conclusively reiterates, “difference between Angels and demons is that Angels are more typically” always, actually, “presented as having bodies demons…don’t have physical bodies.”
At this point, he just finished a mini-rant about hell and then goes off in various directions so I will pick up on a few of his half-sentences, “Jesus says in the next life we’ll be like Angels, we won’t marry, won’t give in marriage. We’ll be like Angels in that we won’t die, not that Angels are sons of God like us, Hebrews 1.”
Jesus never said, “in the next life we’ll be like Angels” since that’s a vague statement and Jesus was more nuanced since He employed qualifying term in stating, “in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven” (Matthew 22:30) ergo, the loyal ones. Such is why those who did marry are considered sinners, having, “left their first estate,” as Jude put it, in order to do so.
As for, “not that Angels are sons of God like us” well, sure, not like us, neither is Jesus the son of God like us yet, they’re all sons of God nevertheless. In fact, “they that are accounted worthy to attain to that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: for neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection” (Luke 20:35-36).
After an extended rant, he gets back to what the video is supposed to be about. He tells us, “I’m going to move to speculation where do they come from” followed by, “that’s speculation” followed by, “is speculation” and finally to something about, “the suffering of animals in the time period before there were humans” yet, I’m unaware that animals suffered for a few days and did so pre-fall.
Yet, he continued that assertion directly with, “there there’s a reason for that too, because just like when the Bible talks about there’s a sort of a trial going on in heaven” he offers Job chaps 1-2 as examples, “and God is, there’s this audience, that heaven and the Angels are watching and God is showing that he is correct and that his accuser, the enemy, is wrong that that trial that test isn’t just in human history but it’s extended back. It’s much older than that. So, this creation, this universe, was made as part of the test part of the
trial and the demons and Angels both were not from here, they are not from here.”
I’ve no idea what he’s going on about and there’s literally zero indication of any sort of pre-historic trial of any sort. As for, “not from here” well, of course not since, again, Angles witnessed the creation of, “here.”
He then goes off about the idea of a multiverse”: see the video of my lecture on multiverse theory.
He then refers to, “speculate on top of speculations” and somehow makes his way to that before our universe existed, there existed another one wherein, “God says, ‘Look there’s this challenge to my righteousness, you are divided in how you feel about it, those of you who chose right you’re going to get resurrection bodies, those of you who did not you going to be disembodied evil spirits…I’m going to create this other universe and we’re all going into it. The Angels to be ministering spirits, the demons to have the contrary principle, the principle of futility” and on it goes with the neo-theo sci-ti tall-tale.
So, he has it that demons pre-existed the creation of humans and yet, biblical indications are that the didn’t exist until the end of the Gen 6 timeline, when the Angels were incarcerated. He also repeated, “Angels to be ministering spirits” after telling us that they have bodies.
Mark Moore asserts, “I don’t happen to believe the universe was subjected to futility as a result of Adam’s action…God subjected the creation to futility very early on. And it’s something that goes way beyond before Adam and it’s a part of this test that we’re [fast] talking about” (brackets added ;o).
He then goes back to ranting about Genesis 1’s linguistics
And well, that’s about all folks.
For a previous review of Mark Moore’s claims, see Reviewing Mark Moore’s claim that the Sons of God are NOT Angels or Spirit Beings.
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