This discussion ensued due to the video About Fallen Angels and Giants by Rick Renner of Renner Ministries.
A certain @michaelszczys8316 commented
I don’t believe it was ‘ fallen ‘ angels that mated with women, at least not previously fallen. Rather Holy Watcher angels that were still loyal to God and in charge of watching over people of the earth. They were fine until Satan enticed them to lust after the women and desire to have for themselves. Also he enticed the WOMEN to lure the angels and cause them to fall from their position at that point.
It seems many of these church fathers held the same view.
I, @kenammi355, replied
I’m pretty okay with that view. The original, traditional, and majority view among the earliest Jewish and Christians commentators, starting in BC days, was the “Angel view” as I proved in my book, “On the Genesis 6 Affair’s Sons of God: Angels or Not?: A Survey of Early Jewish and Christian Commentaries Including Notes on Giants and the Nephilim.”
@michaelszczys8316
first time I seriously read Genesis 6 as a teen I understood it as ‘ angels ‘ and human women getting together and begetting ‘ giants ‘ or children that grew to be gigantic.
I also took the ‘ mighty men which were of old ‘ to be where all the Greek God stories came from.
Good thing I was reading King James Bible which said ‘ giants ‘ or I wouldn’t have known what the heck ‘ nephilim ‘ were.
@kenammi355
That’s interesting because I will submit to you that you also don’t know what the heck “giants” were.
But let’s check with these key questions:
What’s the usage of the vague, generic, subjective, multi-usage and modern English word “giants” in English Bibles?
What’s your usage of the vague, generic, subjective, multi-usage and modern English word “giants”?
Do those usages agree?
Now, I got a hint as to your usage since you wrote, “grew to be gigantic” (whatever that means) so focus on the English Bible’s usage and whether your usage agrees.
@michaelszczys8316
all I know is that when I first read that I understood it to mean people much bigger than NBA basketball players.
I had already heard plenty of stories about ‘ Greek gods ‘ and understood it as that was where all the Greek God stories and legends came from.
Simple as that.
Almost 50 years ago.
Over the years when I read of finding huge skeletons and mummies it fit together just fine as to where they came from.
@kenammi355
Actually, that’s a very good lesson to learn since you noted, “all I know is” and that it’s, “when I first read that.”
Thus, please pay attention to someone who has familiarized himself with over two millennias worth of relevant data. Also, don’t go by the first thing you thought of when you read one vague, generic, subjective, multi-usage and modern English word and especially not before you understand it’s usage: which differs from your usage–so, BTW, it’s correct and you’re mistaken ;o)
Ergo, “giants” in the Bible has utterly nothing whatsoever to do with, “people much bigger” (with “much” being as vague, generic, subjective, multi-usage as “giants”) or, “huge skeletons” (with “huge” being as vague, generic, subjective, multi-usage as “giants” or “much”).
@michaelszczys8316
you just don’t get it, do you?
@kenammi355
Don’t get what you mean by “giants” well yes and no: yes I do and you’re misusing that term and so are not agreeing with the biblical usage and no since you refused to answer the key questions. Fascinatingly, I’ve asked those key questions to dozens and dozens (and dozens) of people who go on and on (and on) about “giants” and literally zero have replied.
@michaelszczys8316
no, you don’t seem to get how I, myself, personally, as a young man, uneducated in Bible or ancient languages, one of the very first times I even read Genesis at all, when I got to reading Genesis 6, I instantly and automatically understood it to mean that angelic beings came to earth and had sexual relations with the human women of earth, thereby producing offspring that were of immense size.
I had already heard plenty about Greek gods and all their stories and immediately and automatically I understood that the Genesis 6 happenings were the origin of where the Greek God stories came from.
All by myself, no ancient language professors guiding me.
I didn’t know much of anything Bible previously, and I didn’t start at the top knowing all about ancient Hebrew and Greek before reading.
I read it, that’s what I saw, that’s what I understood, and it still goes today 50 years later.
I can’t possibly spell it out any plainer.
@kenammi355
Indeed, “angelic beings came to earth and had sexual relations with the human women of earth” but there’s literally zero indication that they produced offspring that were of immense size (with, “immense” being just as vague, generic, subjective, and multi-usage as, “giants”).
So, that it was your first impression means that you now have more data and need to change your mind. So, you spelled it out any quite plainly: you made a mistake half a century ago and it’s about time you correct it.
The word you’re reading as “giants” either merely renders “Nephilim” in two verses or “Rephaim” in 98% of other usages and never even hints at anything about any sort of size whatsoever.
Thus, that was the answer to the key question about the English Bible’s usage and since yours has nothing to do with it then the answer to the last key question is no: your usage is not in agreement with the English Bible’s usage.
I’ve no idea what, “Greek gods” have to do with the size of Nephilim.
@michaelszczys8316
all those huge impossible to build stone monuments and pyramids around the world were built by primitive people with stone hammers and copper chisels.
All those skeletons and mummies of people more than 9 feet tall were just people all over the world suffering from agromegaly and pituitary problems.
The ones bigger than that were from Alpha Centauri
I should have had you with me back in 1970s to tell me how my thinking was all wrong.
When I read something I could have consulted with you before thinking.
When I was younger yet and read in school books how 2 and 2 equals 4 I should have had you to consult with on whether it was correct mathematics or not.
You could have told me about the English language may have several different versions of 2 and a few different meanings of 4 that would give a whole different answer , if I just checked with you first.
@kenammi355
Now you’re pulling the same issue avoidance tactics that Atheists use all of the time. It’s simple: you merely assumed that you knew to what giant refers and you don’t know the English Bible’s usage. And to make it all worse, now you’re flatly refusing to let facts get into the way of a good ol’ tall-tale you invented. That’s no way to sharpen iron with iron.
@michaelszczys8316
we’re all done here
@kenammi355
Shalom to you and yours.
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