Such as a question posted to the Quora site which led to the following discussion after Scott Salvatore commented
The angels in chains are they that fell from heaven with Lucifer.
Revelation 12:4
King James Version
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven.
Take my advice and leave the book of Enoch alone it is full of lies theres no such thing as watchers or nephilims who people say are the children of angels and humans. This fable is conjured up from people who don’t understand the scriptures the same can be said about the trinity believers.
I, Ken Ammi, replied
Just a technical point: not “with Lucifer” since his (a Cherub, not an Angel) fall was as per the Gen 3 timeline while theirs was as per the Gen 6 timeline.
1 Enoch is Bible contradicting folklore from centuries, if not millennia, after the Torah, see my book, “In Consideration of the Book(s) of Enoch.”
Scott Salvatore
Overall Lucifer is a angel the scriptures refers to him many times as angel or fallen angel. Cherub is a rank within the angelic army that’s it.
Ken Ammi
Can you provide the quotations and citations from where, “the scriptures refers to him many times as angel or fallen angel”?
I will note that there are zero and the only time he is referenced as any such thing is when we’re told that he pretends to be a Angel of light.
There’s also zero indication, “Cherub is a rank within the angelic army” that’s just a category error that violates the law of identity and is just a man-made tradition that someone just invented. But again, maybe you can provide quotations and citations.
Scott Salvatore
Sure the scriptures never said it plainly that Lucifer was a angel that’s because the scriptures are a book of mystery only those who patiently seeks God and gains favor will unlock it’s mysteries.
Revelation 12:7-9 – And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels.
Michael a angel led army of angels against Lucifer a angel and his army of angels.
Revelation 12:9 – And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
This scripture refers to Lucifer falling to earth after Michael defeat him in heaven proving he was a angel in heaven. No one else but God the angels and few humans like Enoch who was translated are in heaven currently. Heaven is not a place people can invade spirit or humans remember the tower of babel story?
2 Peter 2:4 – For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
All that was cast out according to scripture were angels Lucifer including because the scripture did not make a separation between Lucifer and angels.
Ken Ammi
“scriptures never said it plainly that Lucifer was a angel” because he’s not and we’re told that he is a Cherub (the one in the Garden: Ezekiel 28:14) thus: mystery unlocked.
It’s a non-sequitur that since, “Michael defeat him in heaven” this is, “proving he was a angel in heaven” since Angels and God are not the only residents of heaven: there are, at least, Angels, Cherubim, Seraphim, and Ophanim (if they count).
When you assert, “Heaven is not a place people can invade spirit” you must be thinking about the New Heavens rather than the intermediate heaven, which is where the war took place.
In asserting, “All that was cast out according to scripture were angels Lucifer including because the scripture did not make a separation between Lucifer and angels” you’re ignoring, “You were in Eden, the garden of God…You were an anointed guardian cherub…guardian cherub,” “I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God…I cast you to the ground” (see Ezekiel 28).
Debbie Harrington chimed in with
Son of the Morning – Isaiah 14
Satan, the personification of evil, was once one of God’s most beautiful angels in Heaven. This evil angel was originally called Lucifer, which means son of the morning (Isaiah 14:12). He was the prince of angels, the bearer of light. God created him to be perfect in wisdom and beauty, a spectacle of flawlessness. But this was not enough for him. For He wanted to sit on the mount of God and be like God.
Debbie Harrington
Nephilim are in the Holy Bible so is the Godhead/Trinity😊
Scott Salvatore
The Godhead is different from the trinity which is a pagon belief practice by pagon religions all over the world before Christianity existed. The pagon Roman Catholic church is responsible for introducing the trinity doctrine to Christianity. Religion like Egyptian for example believe in the Trinity garbage.
Nephilims do exist in the scriptures but they are not what people say they are. People believe that they are giants who were the sons and daughters of human and angel parents but they are not. Angels never lusted after humans because the nature of angels are spirit and spirit doesn’t feel the desire for sexual intercourse the flesh does. Also spirit cannot impregnate flesh because they don’t have what’s needed to fertilize a woman’s egg that being things like blood for example. Seek God for yourself and stop swollw every pill you hear.
Debbie Harrington
Guess the Holy Bible is wrong and you are right hna lol
Ken Ammi to Scott
But you’re merely asserting, “Satan…was once one of God’s most beautiful angels…was the prince of angels.” I just directed Scott to one of the relevant texts that you’re paraphrasing but misapplying: Ezek 28.
Ken Ammi to Debbie
The Godhead is a Trine being.
You asserted, “Nephilims do exist in the scriptures” so please check Gen 6:4 and Num 13:33.
You then merely assert, “people say they are…the sons and daughters of human and angel parents but they are not” and merely assert, “Angels never lusted after humans” and merely assert, “angels are spirit.”
So, since you’re Angelology is faulty, you ague, “spirit cannot impregnate flesh” when that has nothing to do with the Gen 6 affair.
Scott Salvatore
You clearly lack understanding of scriptures so I’ll humor you a bit
Show me a scripture in the bible that says God is three in one or that the Godhead is the trinity.
Show me a scripture that said angels begat offsprings from humans and I’ll debunked it for you. I could now but I rather do so after you’ve provided the scriptures that you misinterpreted friend
Ken Ammi
It would appear that you’re unfamiliar with hermeneutics in terms of basic reading comprehension when you make challenges such as, “Show me a scripture in the bible that says God is three in one or that the Godhead is the trinity.” A formulation is a formulation and is meant to formulate. Feel free to check out my book, “The Trinity Texts: Does the Bible contain Trinitarian Theology and if so, where?”
It’s fascinating that you admitted that if I could show you scripture, you would debunk it: what more proof do we need that your defending man-made tradition?
Job 38:7, as one example, shows us that “sons of God” can refer to non-human beings (which the LXX has as “Angelos”).
Jude and 2 Peter 2 combined refer to a sin of Angels, place that sin to pre-flood days and correlate it to sexual sin which occurred after the Angels, “left their first estate,” after which they were incarcerated, and there’s only a one-time fall/sin of Angels in the Bible.
The original, traditional, and majority view among the earliest Jewish and Christians commentators, starting in BC days, was the “Angel view” as I proved in my book, “On the Genesis 6 Affair’s Sons of God: Angels or Not?: A Survey of Early Jewish and Christian Commentaries Including Notes on Giants and the Nephilim.”
Indeed, “there was no angelic guard at the gates or in Eden.”
I’ve no idea what you mean by, “believe that Cherub and the others don’t fall under the title of angels”: I only “believe that Cherub and the others don’t fall under the title of angels” because they don’t, because that is a category error (in at least three ways) and because it violates the law of identify. Just because someone came along centuries after the Torah and made up man-made claims doesn’t change those biblically verifiable facts.
It’s also a fascinating window into your modus operandi that you demand, “The scriptures said anointed cherub not guardian cherub” exclusively based on your subjectively preferred version. Please familiarize yourself with a subject before commenting about it on the WORLD WIDE web for all to see, here are very many versions for you to peruse: https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Ezekiel%2028:14
“God casting Lucifer to the ground” is a post-Jesus’ ascension event.
Scott Salvatore
Ofcource you would start with disrespectful comments because it’s obvious people like you would see every criticism as an attack. I don’t have the time to read all the none sense you wrote so I refuse to read it all so please make known what scriptures you want to debate on or just go away.
Feel free to check out my book, “The Trinity Texts: Does the Bible contain Trinitarian Theology and if so, where?” NO I WILL NOT READ YOUR GARBAGE. MAYBE WE SHOULD DEBATE ON THE TRINITY IF YOU WANT THAT IS.
Ken Ammi
There’s a difference between my comment and your emotively subjectively malicious misinterpretation of it. You’re comporting yourself like Atheists do: getting angry and literally judging a book by its cover.
Scott Salvatore
Believe whatever you think of me I’m not bothered nor do I care for your opinion. If you’re not willing to discuss scripture and instead wants to argue do it somewhere else. And if you’re reply is still none sense I will not responding again
Ken Ammi
You may be projecting since all I’ve been doing all along is attempting to get you to engage.
Scott Salvatore
Then ask your question if you need something or just want to prove me wrong to scratch your ego.
Ken Ammi
See above.
That brought the discussion to and end as no more replies were forthcoming.
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