The following discussion took place due to a post titled, “Goliath – ReCreating His Massive Gigantic Size – Nephilim – Giant Human” which was about, “What would the Biblical giant Goliath’s height look like? We demonstrated to the teen group our 11ft. tall Goliath doll to their amazement. You like giant humans?”
I call the person “Annon” since we had this discussion via email and not on the open web.
Ken Ammi:
I was hoping to find out upon what the info posted here is based: [URL]
Annon:
Taking 6 cubits and a span
We used the royal cubit of 20.6 inches adding the span of 9″ we arrive at a height of 11.06 ft.
Now, we picked up that discussion in another thread since I had also written this:
I was consulting your YouTube channel and since I’ve written some nine books on Nephilology, I wondered if you might be interested in having me on for a show.
Annon:
Nice to meet you. What is “Nephiololgy”
Always happy to collaborate.
Ken Ammi:
Nice to meet you as well and thanks for following up.
I call myself a Systematic Biblical Paranormologist and part of that is studying Nephilology which is just that: the study of Nephilim.
So, why opt for a royal cubit?
Annon:
We opted for it for two reasons.
1.) David may have used it.
2.) Ellen White said Goliath was at least 10.5ft. tall.
What is a “Paranormologist” ?
Ken Ammi:
Most interesting.
So, the qualifying term is that David “may have” used it so that is an unknown, an assumption. I’m also unsure why we should think that it was David that measured Goliath.
What were White’s sources for concluding that Goliath was at least 10.5ft. tall?
A paranormologist (I likely coined that term) studies the paranormal. In this case, I’ve attempted to specialize in paranormal entities and events mentioned in the Bible.
Annon:
What were White’s sources for concluding that Goliath was at least 10.5ft. tall? (her visions)
and then I turned to the existing menu of cubits at David’s time and see that there was this (royal) cubit that had a near match.
Ken Ammi:
I see.
I suppose that I’m unsure we should base our view of Goliath upon supposing David measured him, supposing he used a royal cubit (for some unknown reason), and supposing visions.
Yet, I actually have no bone to pick with how tall he was since that has nothing to do with anything as far as I know.
I will note that you seem to also be relying on the Masoretic text exclusively which would typically be calculated as having him at just shy of 10 ft. Yet, the earlier LXX, and earlier Dead Sea Scrolls, and earlier Flavius Josephus have him at just shy of 7 ft.
Also, I was confused about him being referred to as, “… – Nephilim – Giant Human” since 1) he was not a Nephil but was a Repha and 2) if he was a Nephil then he would only be half-human.
Annon:
The nephilim contrary to most ancient accounts and todays popular belief are wrong.
The daughters of men were human and the sons of god were from the line of righteous Seth – human. Besides even if the sons of god were angels, it would be an unfallen angel. And that does not fit the narrative. No where in scripture, from my understanding, is a fallen angel ever referred to or titled as a “son of god”. In scripture.
Ken Ammi:
That view of Nephilim’s parentage is a late dated one, it’s not the original, traditional, and majority view among the earliest Jews and Christians.
I would wonder why it was exclusively female, “daughters of men” and exclusively male “sons of god…from the line of righteous Seth.”
“if the sons of god were angels, it would be” the act that caused them to become fallen.
So, they were “sons of God” who saw human women, did what they did, and were then considered sinners.
Jude and 2 Peter 2 both refer to a sin of Angels (Jude correlates it with sexual sin) so if they were not talking about Gen 6 then what were they talking about?
In any case, referring to Goliath as a “Nephilim” is 1) referring to him in the plural and 2) misidentifying him.
Annon:
There was a war in heaven that took place before the creation of the Earth. 1/3 of the angels sided with Lucifer.
And cast to Earth. Adam and Eve were created shortly after. So you are saying this theory states or implies that other angels fell after the line was drawn, in heaven that the war took place, when the 1/3 left their righteous position including Lucifer who was one of the two covering angels? Angels leaving heaven after all this to join those on planet earth years later. Kind of a second exodus from heaven.
That means, if this did happen, the very act of leaving heaven, means their decision was equal to those in the the war that preceded it. And they became fallen the moment they left heaven. Therefore they would not be a “son of god” by the time they reached earth because their sin started, in this case, as soon as coveteousness and lust entered into their heart even before their physicl act was committed.
So it would violate logic and scriptural reasoning to think a heavenly angel, surviving the war in heaven and being on the good side of those 2/3’s and seeing the carnage, the vacuum in heaven, seeing what it did to the 1/3 of their brethren, seeing what sin did to Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel, the Earth being cursed twice and then decide because they like the look of a woman, to leave heaven and become not just a biological father but a husband that came home from work everyday to his home he built or bought and made a family.
Ken Ammi:
The only known “war in heaven” is a posts-Jesus ascension event so it either took place in the years AD or has still not taken place: see Revelation 12.
Thus, it was not before Adam and Eve were created and so no, I’m not saying, “other angels fell after the line was drawn.” Rather, I’m saying that Gen 3 records when Satan fell, Gen 6 records when the Angels fell and, again, Rev 12 tell us that the war was or will be after Jesus’ ascension.
Also, Lucifer was not a covering Angel since he’s not an Angel, he’s a Cherub.
Annon:
First off I appreciate the opportunity to dialogue on these topics. Iron always sharpens iron and your intelligent
approach of reasoning gives me opportunity to relook and think regarding the positions I’ve taken.
That said, may I ask your understanding on what precipitated Adam and Eve’s creation and fall.
Meaning I had identified that there was a war and 1/3 of the angels were on Earth to get ready to
tempt our first parents. From your understanding of scripture, how do you understand the origin of evil and the order of events
Pre-creation and shortly after the creation week?
Ken Ammi:
I too appreciate interaction. I’ve come to find that when we seek to sharpen iron with iron–someone tends to get cut ;o)
As for, “the origin of evil and the order of events Pre-creation and shortly after the creation week”: one issue is that we are told precious little about those issues: which means that we need to take the little that we are told very carefully.
Here is my chronological understanding:
The original rebellion took place within the mind of a Cherub who, “said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.”
The original temptation is recorded in Gen 3 when the serpent/Satan/Cherub introduced his, “I will be like the most High” thought to Eve, “ye shall be as gods.” That record his sinful action, that is when he acted on his rebellion, that is when he fell.
Rev 12 is the key to the chronology: Satan is already described as, “a great red dragon” who with, “his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth” so that he fell first and once he was already fallen Angels fell later–with Gen 6 recording their sinful action, when they acted on their lust, that is when they fell.
Then, “she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne” which is Jesus’ whole Earthly life until His ascension.
Then, “there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels.”
Thus, there was no fall of anyone anywhere until the Gen 3 timeline when the Cherub fell.
Concurrent with that, there was the fall of humans.
Then there was the fall of Angels.
After Jesus’ ascension there was or will be a war in heaven–it seems to me that the incarcerated Angels Jude and 2 Peter 2 mention are symbolically described as being released in Rev 9, they then wreak havoc on Earth, then join Satan in the war, then are defeated, and then are condemned.
Annon:
Ok I got you Ken.
So your understanding was that Lucifer was the only angel pre-creation of the Earth that fell?
Ken Ammi:
Not at all:
1) He’s not an Angel, he’s a Cherub,
2) It was not pre-creation, it was during the Gen 3 timeline.
The Gen 3 timeline marks the first fall of any “heavenly” being and also the fall of humanity.
Annon:
What is the difference do you believe in Angels vs. Cherubs?
Ken Ammi:
They, along with Seraphim, have different job titles, different job functions, and look different from one another: they are different categories of being.
Angels are messengers and look just like human males.
Cherubim are guardians and have four faces, four wings, hoof-like feet, etc.
Annon:
Thank you Ken.
Ken Ammi:
Thank you in turn. So, will you edit the page to, at least, accurately identify Goliath as a Repha (tribe) and/or of the Anakim (clan) rather than “Nephilim”?
Annon:
Negative. Goliath, King Og, the antediluvians, the giants of the promised land are all “giants” and if the Bible uses the Hebrew word nephilim to translate into the English word Giant, meaning large in size, then Goliath qualifies.
Ken Ammi:
Oh my, now we have a series of problems:
Goliath and King Og were not even close to being antediluvians: they lived centuries post-flood.
When you say “the giants of the promised land are all ‘giants’” that is not only circular but since you say “the Bible uses the Hebrew word nephilim” I can tell that you are actually basing that on one single verse: you’re relying exclusively on Num 13:33 which is part of an “evil report” by utterly unreliable guys whom God rebuked.
So, now you have to literally just invent an un-biblical way to get Nephilim past the flood (which would imply that God failed).
But when you say Nephilim is what is “translate[d] into the English word Giant” that is myopic: in some English Bibles Nephilim is rendered (not even translated) into Giants in only two verses, 98% of all other usages of Giants it is rendering Rephaim.
Also, contextual to the English Bible’s usage “Giant” is not “meaning large in size” since the way that English word ended up in some English Bibles is that they were following the LXX which has Nephilim and Rephaim (and gibborim) as “gigantes” which merely means “earth-born” (as in born of Gaia) so that it does not even imply anything about size at all.
Annon:
To me the whole issue of giants is actually pretty simple.
Adam and Eve were giants.
The human race was taller, longer lived and smarter than we are today.
We dumbed down since the fall and especially after the flood which accelerated this process.
The hold outs like Goliath remained genetically larger for sometime after the flood.
I believe once we get aboard the ark, my prediction is we’ll find giant built in chairs and beds.
So I understand there an several titles or names for different giant races in the Bible.
But the above summary is where myself and the seventh day adventist church’s position is
on this fascinating subject.
Ken Ammi
Friend, it is as if you are not applying the biblical and linguistic data that I am providing to you.
I noted that in the English Bibles that use the word “giants,” it implies nothing whatsoever about height at all but you use it to refers to something vague about height.
Now, there is no indication that “Adam and Eve were” whatever you might mean by “giants” but I see that you mean something generic about being, “taller”—whatever that means.
Since I noted that Goliath didn’t live until centuries post-flood, why do you call him one of the, “hold outs”? Especially since you know that you claim how big he was based on three assumptions rather than on the preponderance of the best and earliest evidence which I provided to you.
So, when you say, “there an several titles or names for different giant races in the Bible” that is not the issue at all. There are no “giant” “races” (there is only one race, the human race) in the Bible: you are just misreading and so are misunderstanding the usage of the English word “giants”—which I already explained to you.
Just be careful that you are not so very taken by the fascination of your theory that you simply neglect all of the facts of which you are being made aware.
Annon:
genetic expression has to come from somewhere.
If Goliath was an acromegalic giant, then case closed on him.
But he wasn’t.
He was and his family was a genetic expression of days gone by.
If you look back in the 1800’s when the fraud of the Cardiff Giant was perpetuated.
The atheist who created this giant hoax did this to mees with people who naturally back then associated
preflood people with giant humans.
Christians don’t have that same connection anymore. But regulate a long standing perpetuated lie that humans and angels mated and produced
giants. Which to me has so many holes and it only solves one possible answer to one question, the interpretation of Genesis 6:4
Ken Ammi
Friend, keep a few things in mind:
You refer to a post-flood “genetic expression” of something vague about subjectively unusual height but the only reason that you believe in pre-flood subjectively unusual height is because someone told you to believe that many, many millennia post-flood.
Thus, the Bible knows of no such thing,
You note, “If Goliath was an acromegalic giant” but recall that you only think that he was a “giant” because of three open assumptions and one hidden one: 1) assuming David measured him (for which we’ve no evidence), 2) assuming David measured him using a royal cubit (for some unknown reason and for which we’ve no evidence), 3) assuming that one vision from many, many millennia after the fact is reliable (for which we’ve no evidence), and the hidden assumption that the starting point should be the Masoretic family of manuscripts and not the three earlier sources I mentioned to you.
Now, you say Goliath wasn’t an acromegalic giant but was, along with his family, exhibiting, “a genetic expression of days gone by” for which, again, we have no evidence whatsoever.
So it all comes down to the mere assertion, “preflood people with giant humans” for which, again, we have no evidence whatsoever.
Now, the Angel view of Genesis 6:4 is the original, traditional, and majority view among the earliest Jews and Christians alike for many, many centuries—your view is actually the late-comer. But that has not much of anything to do with how you get Nephilim past the flood (implying that God failed along the way), how you determine the height of people for whom we’ve no reliable physical description, etc. See, you have to invent un-biblical tall-tales just to get post-flood Nephilim: whether they are 100% human or not.
Annon:
The ceiling of human height was 12-15ft.
Do you believe the antediluvians lived to be 800-900 literal years?
Ken Ammi:
If the ceiling of human height was 12-15ft. it matters not since we’ve no reliable indication of anyone even close to that height.
I’ve not looked into the issue of whether the antediluvians lived to be 800-900 literal years but don’t see why not.
That brought the discussion to and end as no more replies were forthcoming.
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