The Genesis Apologetics site, whose mission statement is, “Strengthening the faith of God’s children by grounding them in biblical truth and equipping them to discern error, one divine appointment at a time,” posted a series of articles about Nephilim and/or giants.
One is titled Nephilim: Biblical Giants? which is an interesting question and begins with, “Yes—giants existed—and it wasn’t just Goliath” but since he was a Repha nor a Nephil then key questions are: What’s the usage of the vague, generic, subjective, multi-usage and modern English word “giants” in English Bibles? What’s Genesis Apologetics’ usage? Do those two usages agree?
We’re told, “Developing a well-rounded view about giants from the Bible requires studying the entire set (and not just a few) of the following Biblical passages: Genesis 6:4, 14:5; Numbers 13:28–33; Deuteronomy 1:28–3:11, 9:2; Joshua 11:21, 13:12, 14:12–15, 15:8–14, 17:15, 18:16; 1 Samuel 17:4, 49–50; 2 Samuel 5:18–25, 21:15–22; Amos 2:9; 1 Chronicles 11:23, 20:4–8; Numbers 13:22; Judges 1:20; Isaiah 17:5; Psalm 82, and Job 4:13–18.”
Let us see if they walk us through all of those—stand by.
We’re then told:
Scripture also includes passages that appear to highlight distinct characteristics about the giants/Nephilim, such as in Numbers 13:23-25 where two men are required to carry a “cluster of grapes” (why does the writer need to point this out?) and certain unique characters and family lines that were pursued, engaged in battle, and conquered (such as Joshua 15:13-14: “Now to Caleb the son of Jephunneh he gave a share among the children of Judah, according to the commandment of the LORD to Joshua, namely, Kirjath Arba, which is Hebron (Arba was the father of Anak).
Caleb drove out the three sons of Anak from there: Sheshai, Ahiman, and Talmai, the children of Anak”). The angels that “broke their domain” were punished and judged (Jude 1:6–8 and 2 Peter 2:4–11).
The giants/Nephilim and their descendants that were pursued and annihilated after the Flood (e.g., by David and Joshua) were present on earth either by a re-incursion or through the line of Ham’s wife (see Genesis 9:18 and others).
That is a very confusing and confused set of claims.
Note the reference to, “giants/Nephilim” which biblically contextually would mean, “Nephilim/Nephilim” so it’s clear that their usage of giants is that it’s a mere aka for Nephilim. But then, what happened to the usage here, “giants existed—and it wasn’t just Goliath.” Typically, people writing/speaking about giants don’t define their usage and use the term to refer to more than one thing—which makes it for challenging reading/listening.
Unsure what, “characteristics about the giants/Nephilim” has to do with a cluster of grapes.
As for why point this out well, the text is very clear that it was part of the proof that the spies who reconnoitered the land of Canaan presented, “Moses sent them to spy out the land of Canaan and said to them, ‘…see what the land is…and whether the land that they dwell in is good or bad…bring some of the fruit of the land…Now the time was the season of the first ripe grapes…they came to the Valley of Eshcol and cut down from there a branch with a single cluster of grapes, and they carried it on a pole between two of them; they also brought some pomegranates and figs…they came to Moses and Aaron and to all the congregation…And they told him, ‘…It flows with milk and honey, and this is its fruit.’”
Note the utterly abrupt mention of Anakim followed by a mention of Angels.
There is literally zero reliable indication of, “The giants/Nephilim and their descendants that were pursued and annihilated after the Flood” and, “a re-incursion or through the line of Ham’s wife” are merely un-biblical fantasy tall-tales that imply that God failed, missed a loophole, the flood was much of a waste, etc., etc., etc.—and “Genesis 9:18 and others” have literally nothing to do with either story.
From this, it’s noted that, “Genesis Apologetics hold[s] firmly to the ‘angel’ view of Genesis 6?” as do I: The original, traditional, and majority view among the earliest Jewish and Christian commentators, starting in BC days, was the Angel view as I proved in my book On the Genesis 6 Affair’s Sons of God: Angels or Not?: A Survey of Early Jewish and Christian Commentaries Including Notes on Giants and the Nephilim.
The article ends after noting what I’ll put as that Jude and 2 Peter 2 combined refer to a sin of Angels, place that sin to pre-flood days and correlate it to sexual sin which occurred after the Angels, “left their first estate,” after which they were incarcerated, and there’s only a one-time fall/sin of Angels in the Bible. So, if they’re not referring to the Gen 6 affair, we’ve no idea to what sin they’re referring.
Yet, reference is made to an article by Tim Chaffey from Answers in Genesis but he’s unreliable on this issue—and I’m speaking as someone who’s name is found favorably mentioned in Chaffey’s book since I made him aware of 8-9 historical referenced that he had missed when completing a book on this topic: see here for my articles on him, I also included him in my book Nephilim and Giants as per Pop-Researchers: A Comprehensive Consideration of the claims of I.D.E. Thomas, Chuck Missler, Dante Fortson, Derek Gilbert, Brian Godawa, Patrick Heron, Thomas Horn, Ken Johnson, L.A. Marzulli, Josh Peck, CK Quarterman, Steve Quayle, Rob Skiba, Gary Wayne, Jim Wilhelmsen, et al.
Another Genesis Apologetics article on this topic is simply titled Giants and in order to answer, “Who were the giants in the Bible?” instant reference is made to, “Was there a giant problem in the Americas?” along with a series of questions, “One of Biblical proportions? Was Goliath just a one-off freak of nature who came to challenge God’s army? Or were God’s people battling against multiple tribes of giants—giants who were born from the offspring of angels and humans—and were they commissioned by God to eradicate these giants from the face of the earth?”
It turns out that this article is really an infomercial for a book, “Our book and video answer these questions and more, including…”
“Our database of 885 ‘giant skeleton’ reports in the U.S. representing more than 3,000 skeletons reported by 1,196 individuals” some issues with such is what is meant by giant and skeletons of what? Also, what reports which I ask since I filled a chapter of my book Nephilim and Giants: Believe It or Not!: Ancient and Neo-Theo-Sci-Fi Tall Tale with various such reports and most are underwhelming: so and so claimed thus and such without follow up or follow up determining they were bones of dinos, whales, pachyderm, etc. along with, “giant skeleton” meaning human skeletons larger, by whatever degree, than the subjective parochial average.
“How giants fit into the Biblical framework” which can only mean something if they properly employ the term giants—FYI: the usage of the vague, generic, subjective, multi-usage and modern English word giants in English Bibles is that it merely renders (doesn’t even translate) Nephilim in 2 verses or Repha/im in 98% of all others and so never even hints at anything to do with any sort of height whatsoever.
“What Native American tribes said about the giants” one issue is that they’re not infallible, that what they say is based on centuries of oral tradition, that they could be relating cultural memories of interacting with Vikings (White, red-haired, giants), etc.—see my article Lovelock Cave Giants: lost or found?
“Did the Smithsonian hide giant skeletons?” this is a favorite in pop-Nephilology circles and ignores that, for example, some of it pertains to relatively early European settlers responding to Native claims to land rights based on ancestor burial sites by removing remains and essentially replying with: what remains?
“Giant tools, weapons, and armor found around the world” another instance of what is meant by giant: surely something about subjectivity.
“The giant tribe obsession with sun, moon, and star worship” referring to folklore.
“Hundreds of thousands of mounds and earthworks found across America that required advanced geometry, trigonometry, astronomy to build with celestial alignments” which has something to do with giants in some way or another—or so we’re told.
“The six-finger and double-set row of teeth giant phenomena” the former is stated about one single person in the Bible, a Repha, and nothing is said about the latter.
“How did giants get to North America after the Flood?” another case of that it depends on how they use the giants in that case.
This info-article includes a, “Giant Disclaimer”:
We’d like you to keep a few things in mind while watching this video or reading our Nephilim book. First, the idea of giants—especially in America—may be new to many of our viewers.
It was to us too, but after years of research and amassing over 885 giant skeleton finds in America, we’ve come to the firm position that Goliath was not just a one-off oddity, but was a representation of something that was going on in the world before the Flood and also after, when the sons of God had offspring with human wives: giants called the Nephilim. We’ll also show that some of the indigenous people in America were also impacted by this Biblical narrative.
Rather than basing our position on obscure conspiracies, our position is grounded in five ways: First, Scripture is clear that this happened, and this is especially clear when connecting the Old Testament giant passages with Jude and 2 Peter 2. Because angels are inter-dimensional, it’s entirely possible that the giant phenomena in Biblical lands was also happening in other places like America.
Second, taking an unbiased, solid look into early Native American history reveals a very clear and widespread giant history across almost every major tribe. While these histories also include folklore, there was a widespread belief that actual giants existed and were enemies to their people. While the secular narrative dismisses these histories as myth, we honor Native Americans by regarding their giant accounts as historical.
Third, many of the Moundbuilder groups had a special obsession with worshipping the sun, moon, and stars, with these practices sometimes being connected to ritual human sacrifice. All these practices were expressly forbidden by God in Scripture, which sheds light on the celestial hosts and their offspring that might have instituted such practices.
Fourth, we have their giant size. We documented over 885 accounts of thousands of unusually large skeletons reported by over 1100 individuals. In the Bible, excessive height is one of the consistent Nephilim markers.
Finally, there is the technology factor. As Christians, we place no premium on some groups developing so-called technology that may appear to be more sophisticated than other groups. Humans were smart from the start. What we find in America, beginning after the Flood and ending just centuries before the Pilgrims arrived, is a widespread society collectively referred to as the Moundbuilders. These people somehow managed to build hundreds of thousands of massive mounds and earthworks using millions of tons of earth and stone, and somehow align them with the sun, moon, and stars for ritual practices—practices that were by no means God honoring by Biblical standards.
This society strangely disappeared before the Pilgrims arrived, along with much of their advanced knowledge of astronomy, mathematics including pi and square root, copper metallurgy, some dark rituals and related human sacrifice, and many agricultural and related technologies. It is some of the buried kings from these early groups that we believe had Nephilim origins. Like Abraham Lincoln said in 1848, the bones of these now-extinct “race of giants” fill the mounds of America.
Whatever, “the idea of giants” means in this case.
What’s, “giant” and, “skeleton” of what?
The Masoretic text has Goliath at just shy of 10 ft. Yet, the earlier LXX and the earlier Dead Sea Scrolls and the earlier Flavius Josephus all have him at just shy of 7 ft. (compared to the average Israelite male who was 5.0-5.3 ft. in those days) so that’s the preponderance of the earliest data.
There’s literally zero indication of, “sons of God had offspring with human wives: giants called the Nephilim,” “before the Flood and also after.” Thus, there’s literally zero indication that, “Scripture is clear that this happened” post-flood. What, “is clear that this happened” was, “sons of God had offspring with human wives” strictly pre-flood.
It’s also impossible that, “it’s entirely possible that the giant phenomena in Biblical lands was also happening in other places like America” since that would be post-flood but, again, the sinful Angels were incarcerated, and there’s only a one-time fall/sin of Angels in the Bible.
So, whatever is contained in what’s being termed, “early Native American history” had nothing to do with Nephilim, perhaps only to subjectively taller than the subjective parochial average people.
It’s simply not the case that, “In the Bible, excessive height is one of the consistent Nephilim markers” since 1) there are only a mere two sentences in the whole Bible that reference Nephilim and 2) the dirty little secret is that since we’ve no reliable physical description of Nephilim then their height is a non-issue and that alone debunks 99% of un-biblical Nephilology—the modern branch of which is just un-biblical neo-theo sci-fi tall-tales.
What’s Lincoln’s usage of the vague, generic, subjective, multi-usage and modern English word giants?
Seems like we’ll have to review the, “giants from the Bible” list:
Genesis 6:4; 14:5
The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown….
And he said, “I will give you all the land of Canaan, from the river to the Euphrates, and you shall give me ten percent of the spoil.”
In this case giants ranges from a mere aka for Nephilim to well, nothing in the other verse.
Numbers 13:28–33
However, the people who dwell in the land are strong, and the cities are fortified and very large. And besides, we saw the descendants of Anak there. The Amalekites dwell in the land of the Negeb. The Hittites, the Jebusites, and the Amorites dwell in the hill country. And the Canaanites dwell by the sea, and along the Jordan.
But Caleb quieted the people before Moses and said, “Let us go up at once and occupy it, for we are well able to overcome it.”
Then the men who had gone up with him said, “We are not able to go up against the people, for they are stronger than we are.”
So they brought to the people of Israel a bad report of the land that they had spied out, saying, “The land, through which we have gone to spy it out, is a land that devours its inhabitants, and all the people that we saw in it are of great height.”
And there we saw the Nephilim (the sons of Anak, who come from the Nephilim), and we seemed to ourselves like grasshoppers, and so we seemed to them
In this case, giants refers to a mere tall-tale about Nephilim in terms of the only, and unreliable, physical description we have of Nephilim which is, “we seemed to ourselves like grasshoppers, and so we seemed to them” said by 10 unreliable guys whom God rebuked.
Deuteronomy 1:28–3:11, 9:2
I won’t be quoting circa two entire chapters but the only usage of giants I can imagine they’re referring to is that in chap 2 Rephaim, by any other name, are referred to as, “tall” which is subjective to the average Israelite male who was 5.0-5.3ft. in those days.
But perhaps, “1:28–3:11” was meant to read, “1:28; 3:11” so I will quote 1:28:
Where are we going up? Our brothers have made our hearts melt, saying, “The people are greater and taller than we. The cities are great and fortified up to heaven. And besides, we have seen the sons of the Anakim there.”
In this case, a relating of the Num 13 events, giants refers to, “taller” than 5.0-5.3ft.
3:11 reads:
For only Og the king of Bashan was left of the remnant of the Rephaim. Behold, his bed was a bed of iron. Is it not in Rabbah of the Ammonites? Nine cubits was its length, and four cubits its breadth, according to the common cubit.
In this case, giants refers to a bed. Actually, this is when giants obsessed people attempt to calculate the height of someone for whom we’ve no physical description. Yet, asserting we can know his height based on his bed is a non sequitur based on various mere assumptions. All indications are that it was a ritual object, not something on which he slept—see my book The King, Og of Bashan, is Dead: The Man, the Myth, the Legend—of a Nephilim Giant?
9:2
A people great and tall, the sons of the Anakim, whom you know, and of whom you have heard it said, “Who can stand before the sons of Anak?”
In this case, giants refers to, “tall” so, again, taller than 5.0-5.3ft.
Saving some time here, “Joshua 11:21, 13:12, 14:12–15, 15:8–14, 17:15, 18:16” are all mere references to Anakim or Rephaim (Anakim were like a clan of the Rephaim tribe) so that giants is really merely rendering Rephaim.
“1 Samuel 17:4, 49–50” is all about Goliath and I already provided the relevant data about him.
“2 Samuel 5:18–25, 21:15–22” is about Rephaim.
Amos 2:9 says, “the Amorite…whose height was like the height of the cedars and who was as strong as the oaks; I destroyed his fruit above and his roots beneath.” He was clearly just saying they were big and strong and not implying conducting a one-to-one ratio based mathematical calculation.
In fact, people who do measure cedars and claim Amorites were that tall never get around to a calculation correlating the strength of oaks—since they’re only interested in tall-tales. Plus, if they take it that incoherently literally then they have to conclude that Amorites had fruits and roots growing right out of their bodies.
1 Chronicles 11:23, 20:4–8
And he struck down an Egyptian, a man of great stature, five cubits tall. The Egyptian had in his hand a spear like a weaver’s beam, but Benaiah went down to him with a staff and snatched the spear out of the Egyptian’s hand and killed him with his own spear.
In this case, giant refers to 7.5ft. tall—and note that Regular guy Benaiah took a spear like a weaver’s beam, just like Goliath’s, from a 7.5 ft. Egyptian and successfully wielded it against him in hand-to-hand combat.
Numbers 13:22
They went up into the Negeb and came to Hebron. Ahiman, Sheshai, and Talmai, the descendants of Anak, were there. (Hebron was built seven years before Zoan in Egypt.)
Here giants is used of Anakim—yet, not even in English Bibles, only by Genesis Apologetics.
Judges 1:20
And Hebron was given to Caleb, as Moses had said. And he drove out from it the three sons of Anak.
Same as the previous one.
Isaiah 17:5
And it shall be as when the reaper gathers standing grain and his arm harvests the ears, and as when one gleans the ears of grain in the Valley of Rephaim.
Here Genesis Apologetics was surely appealing to a particular English version that had Valley of the Giants and so we can see that in this case, giants is a mere aka for Rephaim.
Psalm 82
I can’t even imagine what this one has to do with giants: it’s about the One Almighty Elohim speaking down to the lesser elohim and telling them that if they don’t straighten up they will die like men.
Job 4:13–18
Amid thoughts from visions of the night, when deep sleep falls on men, dread came upon me, and trembling, which made all my bones shake. A spirit glided past my face; the hair of my flesh stood up. It stood still, but I could not discern its appearance. A form was before my eyes; there was silence, then I heard a voice: “Can mortal man be in the right before God? Can a man be pure before his Maker? Even in his servants he puts no trust, and his angels he charges with error”
Again, no idea what this has to do with giants.
So, what happened to all of those giants in the Bible? What we learned is to not let a giant list of citations impress us.
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