Discussing “Is Morality Objective?” with Atheists, 2 of 5

dan barker, charles darwin, morality, ethics.jpg

This is the second segment relating discussions I had with Atheist due to the video “Is Morality Objective? Randal Rauser & CC Vs Brenton & 5-By-5”—when all segments are posted, you will be able to find them here.

Picking up where we left off:

Ken Ammi @davelanger

This is the second segment relating discussions I had with Atheist due to the video “Is Morality Objective? Randal Rauser & CC Vs Brenton & 5-By-5”—when all segments are posted, you will be able to find them here.

Picking up where we left off:

Ken Ammi @davelanger
Sadly, your comment does not say at whom you “@” it so in case you are replying to me, you asked “if killing is wrong…” but I said, “Killing is not wrong.” But you began with a conclusion based on hidden assumptions to first back up and tell us how does your worldview 1) provide a premise for truth, logic, and ethics, 2) for adhering to them, and 3) for demanding that others do likewise?

Ken Ammi @Eugene Coleman
Indeed, they do. And there are people who argue for racism with and also without God. The point is not that people exercise a capability of arguing, the point is which argument is cogent. Those who argue for objective morality without God must, by necessity and definition, would mean that objective morality is the result of a very, very, very long series of accidents and that therefore, we must adhere to it which is utterly absurd.
Indeed, killing someone can be justified and morally good.

Ken Ammi @Kibret W
Well, by definition “morality” is a description of whatever it is that people are doing since it refers to the “mores.” Ethics (or what some term absolute/universal/objective morality) is absolute, extrinsic, objective, etc. when understood as referring to the “ethos” which prescribes what people ought to do which is why all people everywhere at all times agree on that level.

Davelanger
The same way you do but I don’t pretend it came from some imagery god. We get truth, logic and ethics from reasoning. We adhere to them through the laws of our society and they are demanded that others follow again through those laws we make of society.
This is also very basic, why are you having so much trouble with it.

Ken Ammi
Friend, you are failing to engage what a premise is: for example, truth and logic predate humanity or else before humans reasoned to logic (however that would work) then the universe could have existed and also not existed at the same time and in the same relation.
Now, you just claimed that God is imaginary and that is a positive affirmation so you must now prove it. By “reasoning,” on your worldview, you mean the interaction of random bio-chemical mixtures in our accidentally haphazard brains which a predetermined by the laws of physics so how does that result in an imperative to adhere to reason?
So if you “adhere to them through the laws of our society” then that is utterly subjective since the society next door may disagree and there goes your whole endeavor—unless you are arguing for absolute subjectivism which, of course, would be as self-defeating as Atheism is in general.
Sure, “they are demanded that others follow” but what if I say, “So what?”

Le Med Student chimed in with
Morality is subjective and was never demonstrated to be objective. Christians Apologists may claim it is but that is just another delusion to add to the list.
Morality is as objective as a painting is always a work of art…

Ken Ammi
If “Morality is subjective” then you have disqualified yourself from complaining about that which “Christians Apologists may claim” (or anything else, ever, for that matter) so you have discredited yourself.
The key is the fundamental and technical difference between morality as the mores and ethics as the ethos (which some term absolute/universal morals).
But you began with a conclusion based on hidden assumptions to first back up and tell us how does your worldview 1) provide a premise for truth, logic, and ethics, 2) for adhering to them, and 3) for demanding that others do likewise?

davelanger
Oh look another person who does not know what an internal critique is. Also morality is a made-up thing by humans. if humans were never around there wouldn’t be morality. Humans are animals, other animals don’t have a morality.

Ken Ammi
Well then, you have disqualified yourself from ever condemning anything–at any level beyond your emotive and impotent subjective personal preferences de jour.
But actually, on a technical level I agree that “morality is a made-up thing by humans” only when “morality” is understood to refer to the “mores” which merely describe what people do. This is as opposed to “ethics” when understood to refer to the “ethos” which refer to what people ought to do and is thus, absolute, universal, extrinsic, objective, etc. which is why all people at all times and all places agree on them (some call this concept absolute/universal morals).
Just curious, if “Humans are animals” are you a vegetarian and did you marry an ape?

davelanger
Yes Ken and that is what everyone does. They condemn things based on their own subjective morality. That is how it works.
Ethics is also subjective, what people ought to do is just your subjective opinion on what you think they should do. All ethics is is the value system society has. That also changes over time just like morality. And you don’t seem to know what objective means, it does not matter how many people agree with something, you could have everyone agree with something that does not make it objective.
If you don’t think humans are animals, then you really are a science denier arent you

See my books on Atheism.

dan barker, charles darwin, morality, ethics.jpg

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