Discussing “Darwinian Evolution’s Occult, Pagan, New Age Roots” with an Atheist, 1 of 6

This commences a parsed series relating a discussion with an Atheist regarding the video Darwinian Evolution’s Occult, Pagan, New Age Roots—when all segments are posted, you will be able to find them all here.

A certain Gary Walker began this by commenting:

The lie of creationism cannot be asserted or defended with honesty.

I, Ken Ammi, replied:

Friend, I discern that you were unable to engage the reality of the matter but got emotional and so decided to attack so as to distract. But you began with a conclusion so we should back up and have you elucidate: how does your worldview provide you 1) a premise for truth, logic or ethics, 2) for holding to these and 3) for demanding that others do likewise?

We were not off to a good start since Gary replied rather emotively (and doing that annoying thing of quoting of everything I wrote and replying to it in bits and pieces):

Friend,

<If you are a creationist, you are not my “Friend”. >

I discern that you were unable to engage the reality of the matter

<Creationism has no basis in reality. It is a fairy tale with no practical application. >

but got emotional and so decided to attack so as to distract.

<No. The rejection of creationism is entirely rational. >

But you began with a conclusion

<An entirely logical conclusion. >

so we should back up and have you elucidate: how does your worldview provide you 1) a premise for truth,

<A statement of truth is testable with independent tests showing the same results. >

logic

<Logic is a system of thought where statements, if true, lead to a single rational conclusion. >

or ethics,

<Ethics, morality, are a body of behaviors that allow us to live in a society where we limit our own behaviors so that we are not dangerous or annoying to others around us. >

2) for holding to these and

<I do not know what you mean. >

3) for demanding that others do likewise?

<We, as a society demand that people do not behave in ways that interfere with others or place them at elevated risk. >

Ken Ammi:

If I am a creationist, then I am not your friend: well, we can change that.

Now, I asked: how does your worldview provide you 1) a premise for truth, logic or ethics, 2) for holding to these and 3) for demanding that others do likewise?

Since you failed to reply, perhaps because such issues are inconvenient to your worldview, when you say “Creationism has no basis in reality. It is a fairy tale with no practical application” you are merely emoting via literally meaningless, impotent assertions.

Likewise, when you merely and subjectively assert “The rejection of creationism is entirely rational…An entirely logical conclusion” I mean, how can you appeal to that which is supposedly logical without a premise for logic?

But the bottom line issue, at this point, is that you do not seem to understand that a premise is not a dictionary definition of words. That is all you did, you merely defined terms such as “Logic is a system of thought where statements, if true, lead to a single rational conclusion,” etc. but the point is how does your worldview provide you a premise for truth, logic or ethics as whence came they and why should we care?

Gary Walker:

If I am a creationist, then I am not your friend: well, we can change that.

<Yeah, you can change and be rational. >

Now, I asked: how does your worldview provide you 1) a premise for truth, logic or ethics,

<Truth is a statement about reality that accurately communicates data regarding that reality. Analysis of evidence that supports a statement is the best way to filter what is true or not.

Logic is a system of philosophy to order and triage thought. Pure logic is not always a method for determining what is true as reality can be far more complex than the models of reality we build.

Ethics are the societal rules that we use to interact with others to minimize conflict. I try to assess what the consequences of a given action will be then work to minimize harm for the greatest number of people and maximize benefits to the greatest number of people.>

2) for holding to these and

<Truth: simple, I call out liars for spreading lies, people like politicians and creationists.

Logic: again, I try to use logic and request that others be logical as well.

Ethics: again, I call out unethical actions, like almost everything Trump does or that Creationists do to further their ignorant goals. >

3) for demanding that others do likewise?

Since you failed to reply, perhaps because such issues are inconvenient to your worldview, when you say “Creationism has no basis in reality. It is a fairy tale with no practical application” you are merely emoting via literally meaningless, impotent assertions.

<No, this statement is very much true. Creationism holds that the bible is more valid than is evidence based science. This is a lie. >

Likewise, when you merely and subjectively assert “The rejection of creationism is entirely rational…An entirely logical conclusion”

<Modern Science is based on evidence. Creationism is based on faith in a book written thousands of years ago, badly translated and based on a very primitive understanding of everything.

It is entirely logical to throw the bible in the dumpster and study science. >

I mean, how can you appeal to that which is supposedly logical without a premise for logic?

<There is a premise for logic from philosophy, there is NO basis for logic in your bible. >

But the bottom line issue, at this point, is that you do not seem to understand that a premise is not a dictionary definition of words. That is all you did, you merely defined terms such as “Logic is a system of thought where statements, if true, lead to a single rational conclusion,” etc. but the point is how does your worldview provide you a premise for truth, logic or ethics as whence came they and why should we care?

<My understanding of what is true comes from evidence.

My understanding of what is ethical comes from my interactions with people and other animals.

My understanding of what is logical comes from my experience.

The bible only touches on ethics/morality but utterly fails to provide meaningful guidance on the subject. The bible condones slavery that is entirely unethical.>

Ken Ammi:

You begin with a conclusion, yet again, you say I “can change and be rational” without a premise for rationality nor for adhering to it. Also, do you really believe, on your worldview, that I can change the random biochemical reactions which produce that which you would call thoughts within that which you would claims is an accidentally haphazardly evolved brain?

About truth, you seem to be saying “it just is, it just happens to have happened” which is all you will ever be able to say about anything, on your worldview. Yet, even if “Truth is a statement about reality,” etc. how does your worldview provide a premise for adhering to it or demanding that others do so as well? See, you jump to “Analysis of evidence” and “filter what is true or not” without a premise (after merely asserting truth in the first place).

Now, I asked about your worldview’s premise for logic and you provided something like a dictionary definition of the term. That is not a premise. Thus, on your worldview, logic just is, just happens to have happened, you merely assert it and have no premise upon which to adhere to it nor demand that others do so as well.

Same goes for ethics, you merely define the word. Thus, for example, when you say (embarrassingly painting with a broom) “The bible condones slavery that is entirely unethical” that is literally meaningless on your worldview—much less because I am unsure how it is wrong that some accidentally and temporarily existing apes would make other accidentally and temporarily existing apes into “slaves.”

You then prove that truth, logic and ethics are just mere assertions to you since, for example, “call out liars for spreading lies” but do not say what is wrong with lying.

You “use logic” without a premise and “request that others be logical as well” also without a premise and based on your own self-appointed authority—why should anyone do that which you request?

You “call out unethical actions” without a premise so you are merely emoting.

You say “Creationism has no basis in reality. It is a fairy tale” but that is irrelevant in your worldview wherein we are just accidentally and temporarily existing apes and there is no imperative to adhere to truth, logic and ethics—you argue that it is really “ooh, ooh, aah, aah” and other apes counterargue that it is really “aah, aah, ooh, ooh” and that is exactly how potent your claims to truth are.

You say “Creationism holds that the bible is more valid than is evidence based science” but that is embarrassingly naïve: it is just a well within the box Atheist talking point de jour. And to call it “a lie” is incoherent.

Modern science is based on theology and seeks evidence. Creationism is common sense and biblical creationism is based on evidence. It is incoherent to “throw the bible in the dumpster and study science” since that is a category error.

 

You say “There is a premise for logic from philosophy, there is NO basis for logic in your bible” but that merely begs the question since you have no premise for philosophy and the basis for logic in the Bible is the same basis as the basis for the scientific method: a rational God created a rational creation and populated it with rational beings who could rationally discern it.

Thus, this is not about your “understanding” of but about that your worldview fails before it even begins because, again, it can only claim it just is and does not provide an imperative. Thus, again, you are just emoting because your worldview tells you that you are just a reactionary animal and because of the Atheist consoling delusion of subjective meaning in an objectively meaningless existence.

We will pick it up from there in the next segment.

For more info, see my books about Atheism related issues.

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