In this segment we find further misreading and misapplication; it goes to show that someone coming to the text with preconceived notions continues attempting to validate their own preconceived notions rather than allowing the text to speak for itself.
Also, we now go beyond discussing the resurrection body and get into some issues related to the Baha’i Faith itself; what it is and how it functions—including their belief that their fonder, Baha’u’llah, is the return of Christ, that the second coming has already occurred.
I was again not happy with my use of the word attack. What I was trying to say is that Bahais do not intentionally draw attention to the differences in their beliefs with the beliefs of others. We simply state our beliefs and answer any questions that may arise. The point is that you wrote a blog that drew attention to something Abdul Baha said over 100 years ago to a Baha’i of Christian background who was asking Him to explain certain Christian beliefs from a Baha’i perspective.
There was no reason for you to do this. You have your beliefs and we have ours. People who are interested can decide for themselves. So when you created this post I was alerted to it by a Google alert on the key word baha which brings up any item relating to the Baha’i faith. Since you were saying that Abdul Baha was wrong I needed to respond to the best of my ability. So in as sense you were attacking since no Baha’i put out a post saying Christians were wrong in believing in a physical resurrection.Having said that I would like to go back to a previous response of yours when I mentioned Christ’s saying that that which is born of flesh is flesh etc. There are many unresolved issues in our continuing correspondence so I would like to pick what is for me the most compelling argument as I see it right now. You say the Paul is a Pharisee and that Pharisees believe in the Resurrection of the dead. I said previously that Christ had not come to confirm Jewish preconceptions. A good example of this is Christ’s exchange with Nicodemus as follows:
1Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him.” 3In reply Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.[a]” 4″How can a man be born when he is old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb to be born!”
5Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[b] gives birth to spirit.
So Nicodemus was also a Pharisee and he also had notions that seemed to mix flesh and spirit. It seems clear to me here that Christ is trying to lead Nicodemus away from this confusion and tells him clearly that he must distinguish between flesh and spirit. So it really doesn’t matter what the Jews believed. It only matters what Christ believed.
As to what Christ believed we have the following:
Matthew 22:30 (New International Version)
30At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.
Now if, as you claim, the body is resurrected (I assume you also believe your body will be resurrected at the Day of Judgement?) what do you think Christ meant by this? Surely the angels were never believed to have bodies? Also if we never marry in heaven will our bodies (excuse this question but it is to the point) have sexual organs? One of my beliefs about heaven is that I will finally be relieved of that particular burden.
It isn’t hard to imagine what life would be like without a body. Just think of a particularily vivid dream. We have no bodies in dreams but we do have consciousness. The founder of the Baha’i Faith (Baha’u’llah) says that the world of dreams is another world we go to when we are released from our bodies. Dreams are only confusing because we are still so attached to our bodies that when we wake this attachment acts as a veil.
Thanks again for the continued discussion and for being considerate enough to even reconsider previous statements it is a testament to your character.
I am afraid that perhaps as an insider you are not considering certain things that are as clear as day to outsiders. For example, you may think that “Bahais do not intentionally draw attention to the differences in their beliefs with the beliefs of others.” But of course, the whole purpose of the Baha’i Faith is to let everyone know that they are not understanding their own religions and holy books correctly since only Baha’u’llah and subsequent Baha’i leadership truly understand them since they all point to Baha’u’llah. Thus, the Baha’i Faith is premised upon drawing attention to the differences in their beliefs with the beliefs of others and to proclaim certain religious practices heretical and that that those who do not accept Baha’u’llah/Baha’ism are not saved.
Regardless of when and why Abdul Baha openly sought to refute traditional, orthodox, biblical Christian doctrine—the fact is that the Bab, Baha’u’llah, Abdul Baha, Shoghi Effendi, the UHJ [Universal House of Justice; Baha’is infallible leaders] and individual Baha’i authors have all, with one voice, refuted this essential Christian doctrine consistently. Thus, you are right to state, “no Baha’i put out a post saying Christians were wrong in believing in a physical resurrection.” Although, I jest to a certain extent as I am not convinced that you know what every Baha’i has written and I am sure that it would take us mere search-engine-seconds to find such a post by a Baha’i. But, if I were to grant this statements I would say, “True enough, no miscellaneous, anonymous, random Baha’i guy who just happens to have a blog made such statements but the infallible leaders of the Baha’i Faith have made saying that Christians were wrong in believing in a physical resurrection part of the official dogmas of the Baha’i Faith.”
Now, note that my faith, my religion, my God, my holy book states that I should: accept no other gospel, to always be ready with an answer, to test all things, to point out false teachers by name, to refute arguments, etc. Thus, when you tell me that there was no reason for me to post a refutation I hear that I am being asked to not practice the dictates of my faith, my religion, my God, my holy book. Moreover, as aforementioned; the Baha’i Faith invites an independent investigation and I posted the results of my investigation of this and other issues.
I must take a moment to state that I do not believe that the Baha’i rejection of the physical resurrection has anything to do with a consideration of any text(s) but it is due to the fact that admitting a physical resurrection would cause problems to the claim that Baha’u’llah is the return of Christ.
Likewise, I believe that denying that Christ had came to confirm Jewish preconceptions is stated as to explain, or explain away by correlation, why Baha’u’llah did not fulfill Christians preconceptions or just conceptions.
I will grant you that if by “Jewish” we mean something that the Jews believed at the time that was not biblical you may have a point but there is hardly aspect of Jesus’ life that I could not find expected in authoritative Rabbinic writings when they speculate about the Messiah. This is true even of authoritative Rabbinic writings that were penned after the time of Jesus which is even more astonishing as they would have been careful not to liken their expectations to His life. [I provide evidence of this in my section on Judaism]But fine, what about Christ’s exchange with Nicodemus? Let us primarily note that this has nothing to do with the resurrection.
Here I agree that Jesus tells him that “he must distinguish between flesh and spirit” but not because he “seemed to mix flesh and spirit.” He did not mix them since he actually only considering the flesh. This is why when Jesus tells Him about being born again; his question is strictly fleshly, “…enter a second time into his mother’s womb to be born!” just like the first time. So he was being told that the birth of which Jesus spoke was a spiritual rebirth, “Spirit gives birth to spirit.” Again, nothing to do with the resurrection.
Now, to something that I attempted to warn you about previously: going too fast and seeking only the bits and pieces of texts in which you think that you can justify your notions.
“At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.”
You reason that since angels are not physical, we will not be physical. But there is simply no reason to speculate about what the text is referring to or about what the purpose of the correlation is—it has nothing to do with whether the resurrection is physical or spirit. The Sadducees where challenging Jesus about the resurrection by bringing up some tall tale about a woman who was widowed many times over and so they ask to whom she will be married in heaven—this is the context: not physicality or spirit per se but resurrection in general and marriage in particular. Thus, Jesus answer is not about physicality or spirit per se but resurrection in general and marriage in particular.
Since “At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage” it is in this way and this way alone that “they will be like the angels in heaven.” Thus, their question about the widow is fallacious.
But again I point out that we could have fun with this one also (if we disregard context): angels are not physical but clearly do, on occasion and temporarily, take on physical form so in heaven we will be spirit and occasionally and temporarily take on physical form.
As to sexual organs; I know of not text which is that, shall we say, specific.
I do not want to get into a discussion about the dream state, of which I have virtually no opinion, but I can relate that I had at least one dream in which I was pinched and felt it.
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