To The Metal Bible Podcast Facebook post, a certain Robert Lindblad commented
John Piper made me care about doctrine and theology, Mark Driscoll made me care about applying that to real life, but Mike Heiser is by far the one who has impacted me the most. Reading his work and listening to his podcast gave me so much deeper understanding, and the tools to study the Bible for myself and actually know what I’m doing.
I, True Freethinker, replied
Dr. Heiser was credentialed and experienced but not infallible, his Nephilology wasn’t biblical, and he tended to create more problems than he solved—see these articles for examples:
Review of Amy Richter and Michael Heiser on four Enochian Watcher related women in Jesus’ genealogy
Rebuttal to Dr. Michael Heiser’s “All I Want for Christmas is Another Flawed Nephilim Rebuttal”
Robert Lindblad
The vast majority of Heiser’s work is well established in academia and has tons of scriptural support. The Nephilim is a small corner piece of that puzzle, and doesn’t really effect the greater big picture that much. I could concede that Heiser was wrong about Nephilim without it effecting my opinion on most of what he did.
However I will not concede. I agree with Heiser that the whole “the 10 spies were lying” can’t be taken seriously as an argument. The text doesn’t say they lied about what was in the land, it says they didn’t trust God. Caleb and Joshua don’t accuse them of lying, they simply exhort Israel “do not fear the people of the land”. The implication there being that there *is* a reason to fear, but they should trust God instead.
True Freethinker
I learned a lot from Heiser and aren’t blind to his shortcomings.
I’m going to guess that you didn’t read the articles and wonder why not.
There’s no logical nor linguistics nor literary imperative for a text to tell you the words, “the 10 spies were lying” for you to understand that such was the case from the context.
Also, as I noted in the article you didn’t read, it wasn’t a formal moderated debate for which we have a full transcript so by relying exclusively on an “evil report” by unreliable guys whom God rebuked for your post-flood Nephilology, you’re only creating a lot of problems for yourself such as having to invent a story about how the made it past the flood—something about God failing, missing a loophole, the flood being much of a waste, etc.
Robert Lindblad
I ‘m not creating any problems. The “problems” you are seeing are there regardless, and cannot be solved by wishful thinking and/or eisegesis. The text also doesn’t say they are problems. You presuppositions are why you think they are problems, and thus feel the need to create an eiegetical alternate narrative that is not in the text.
True Freethinker
It’s simple: the “evil report” consists of five assertions unbacked by even one other text in the entire Bible and they contradicted Moses, Joshua, Caleb, the entire rest of the whole Bible, and God so, why do you side with them?
Why is post-flood and “giant” Nephilology literally based on one single sentence that they stated?
Proof of this is that you exclusively rely on the unreliable rebuked guys’ “evil report” to assert that, “examples of nephilim descendants after the flood, including numbers 13:33” so you see what I mean and also, you’re not only wholly relying on one single sentence but on exclusively non-LXX versions of that one sentence.
As for, “multiple examples of nephilim descendants after the flood” please quote and cite those.
Also, please elucidate how they made it past the flood–although I see that you call your own view, “utter nonsense” and I couldn’t agree more.
Robert Lindblad
I read enough to know you were proposing the “the ten spies lied” idea which is silly. I’m familiar with the concept, and I don’t have to read your specific article in it’s entirety to know that I think it’s bogus. There’s no reason to believe that that is the case based on the text, and there are multiple examples of nephilim descendants after the flood, including numbers 13:33. It specifically says the Anakim were descended from the nephilim. How did they descend from nephilim post flood, if they were all destroyed, and none were left after the flood? It’s utter nonsense.
True Freethinker
Well, that which you subjectively find to be “silly” isn’t a standard and rejecting the conclusions which you haven’t read from an article you claim to have read part of via merely typing out the single word, “bogus” is the sort of thing that Atheist do online (and post-flood Nephilologists).
Now, you asserted (but didn’t quote nor cite) “multiple,” plural, “examples,” plural, “of nephilim descendants,” plural, “after the flood” but you are going in a circle since you one and only bit of (pseudo) evidence is doubling down on a appealing exclusively to one sentence in the “evil report” by unreliable guys whom God rebuked and who contradicted Moses, Caleb, Joshua, the whole rest of the entire Bible and God.
As for, “It specifically says the Anakim were descended from the nephilim” not “It” but rather, “they” and the day are guys whom you rely on 100% for an all-encompassing theory.
Also, please check the LXX for that verse.
And fascinatingly, when it come to THE key point which is, “How did they descend from nephilim post flood, if they were all destroyed, and none were left after the flood?” you again exclusively appeal to your emotive subjectivism, “It’s utter nonsense.”
And that’s all you will ever be able to do because post-flood Nephilology is exclusively based on that one sentence which is why you must hold on to it—“my precious!”—not matter what, no matter that you imply that God failed, not matter that there’s zero reliable indication of what they asserted, no matter that you side with guys whom God rebuked, etc.
That brought the discussion to and end as no more replies were forthcoming.
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