The following discussion took place due to my video Angels, were there post-flood Nephilim & were giants gigantic? Jay Dyer & Ken Ammi.
Jeremy James commented
Genesis 6 never mentions angels once
I, Ken Ammi, replied
Friend, does Job 38:7 mention Angels?
Jeremy James (note that he replies with the text and it certainly makes it clear that “sons of God” here are not humans)
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?
It is a prophesy of the coming of Jesus Christ as he is the “chief corner stone”. The sons of God who were shouting for joy are the saved believers who were saved by faith before the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us. Salvation has always been by faith. I can prove this if you’d like as Jesus is “the lamb slain from the foundation of the world”.
Thanks for taking the time for the discussion!
Ken Ammi
You are quite welcome and thank you in turn.
I urge you to reconsider since such is not what the text is stating. That is very clearly about the creation “when I laid the foundations of the earth.”
Now, if the sons of God are human believers, then who are the morning stars?
Also, you are implying some sort of preexistence since you say that believers were around before the Word was made flesh.
And you refer to being “saved by faith” which we are nor. Rather, we are saved by grace (through faith).
Jeremy James
Genesis chapter 4 has Cains wicked genealogy. Genesis chapter 5 has Seths genealogy and chapter 6 is when the 2 genealogies start intermarrying. Genesis 6 says they took WIVES that they chose. Hebrews tells us Angels CANNOT marry.
Ken Ammi
Well, there is no such thing in the Bible as “Cains wicked genealogy,” that is just a tall tale that was invented in order to ignore that the original, traditional, and majority view amongst the earliest Jews and Christians was the Angel view. I proved this in my book “On the Genesis 6 Affair’s Sons of God: Angels or Not?” subtitle “A survey of early Jewish and Christian commentaries including noted on giants and the Nephilim.”
Jeremy James
I’m not endorsing the “serpent seed” theory as it’s easily proven as false. What I’m saying is that chapters 4,5,and 6 go together as one would expect a book to. The sons of God and daughters of men are what Genesis 4 and 5 are about. Also it really doesn’t matter what “early Jews and Christians” believed, because false doctrine is as old as religion itself. anyways, doesn’t Genesis 6 mention these sons of God MARRIED these daughters of men? Doesn’t the bible also state that Angels DONT marry?
Matthew 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven
Genesis 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them WIVES of all which they chose.
Ken Ammi
Well, I am unsure why people marrying other people would lead to God bringing about the flood.
Matthew 22:30 specifies that it is the Angels “in heaven” that do not marry which is why those who did fell by doing so. Jude and 2 Peter 2 help us understand this as they “left their first estate.”
Bert Joseph chimed in with
What kind of angels are the “Sons of God” Genesis Chapter 6? Are they fallen angels? Good discussion, Thx guys.
Ken Ammi
Indeed, that is the moment of their fall. Thank you for your kind words.
Jeremy James
Ken. If that was the moment of their fall then what was the serpent doing in the garden beguiling Eve?
Ken Ammi
Satan is not an Angel, he is a Cherub: Genesis 3 pinpoints the moment of the action via which he fell and Genesis 6 pinpoints the moment of the action of the Angels via which they fell.
Jeremy James
Yes we are saved by grace through faith.
Ken. I will prove that salvation has always been through faith. Paul says “whoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.” In the OT believers were looking forward to the cross. They knew a redeemer was coming and put their faith in him and his promise. Abraham was justified by faith. Scripture says David called upon the name of the Lord and was saved. I’ll post them in order.
Ken Ammi
Not sure why you wrote, “Yes we are saved by grace through faith” and then “I will prove that salvation has always been through faith.” They “put their faith in him…” by grace. They were “justified by faith” but salvation is by grace, though faith. David “was saved” by grace just like anyone else.
Jeremy James
Ken. The intermarrying of the two genealogies led to the spread of wickedness as Genesis 6:5 says. We know the beliefs of Cain and Abel. Cain offered God the works of his own hands, which is works salvation. Abel did as God commanded and did it with faith. When you read the genealogy of Cain, you read the second murder in recorded history is committed by one of Cains descendants. Wickedness spread faster when the intermarriage started. False beliefs were spread (works). Take care.
Angels are spirits without flesh. How can a spirit without flesh reproduce?
Ken Ammi
Jeremy. The intermarrying of the sons of God and daughters of men led to the spread of wickedness as Genesis 6:1 says. Genesis 6:5 does not say anything about “The intermarrying of the two genealogies.”
Angels are not spirits and do have flesh thus, they did reproduce. The Bible never tells us that Angels are spirits. Now, we are not to build an entire doctrine on one verse and if you seek to provide a citation and quotation about them being spirits you will find just that, one verse: Psalm 104:4, which is reiterated in Hebrews 1.
Yet, please note that in both Hebrew and Greek the term and concept of spirit is corralled with wind and/or breath. When you read the Psalm for context, you will see why a lot of versions have Angels as being “winds” (Psalms being poetic and lyrical as they are) which is also how they have the Hebrews 1 text.
Every single time an Angel is described they are described physically looking like human males (no wings, no halos) so why deny these many facts and opt for that they are not?
Jeremy James
Ken. Grace is a gift of God that comes through faith. Without faith there is no grace for the sinner . Faith comes first. “Without faith it’s impossible to please God”. I said salvation is by grace through faith, but first thing is first.
Paul says “we are justified by faith without the deeds of the law”
Ken Ammi
So we agree that salvation is by grace through faith.
Jeremy James
Yes I stated that above. Thanks for replying.
Jeremy James
Genesis 6:5 doesn’t say it specifically, that’s why you have to read the fourth and fifth chapters to he who God is talking about. Doesn’t it say something like the Spirit of God shall not always strive with MAN (paraphrase) right after Genesis 6:5? He’s talking about man.
Angels are ministering spirits and spirits do not have flesh and bone as Jesus Christ said himself…..Luke 24:39!Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have
Ken Ammi
The first few verses in Genesis 6 provide the premise and the following few focus on humanity as that is the Bible’s main point (Jude and 2 Peter 2 refer to these Angels).
True, spirits do not have flesh and bone but Angles are not spirits: this is not something you should just assert but should provide evidence. And, by the way, I already elucidated that issue for you so people allow iron to sharpen iron.
Jeremy James
Angels aren’t spirits? Hebrews actually calls them “ministering spirits”.
Ken Ammi
Friend, we already went over this: Hebrews does not call them “ministering spirits,” it calls them “leitourgikos pneuma.” In both Hebrew and Greek there is a concept which covers both breath/wing and spirit: these are ruwach and pneuma.
Thus, you cannot simply quote one single translation and build an entire doctrine upon one word therefrom. Hebrews is basing it statements upon Psalm 104 and when you read that text you will see that the context demands that we understand Angels as being likened to winds.
Thus, Hebrews refers to them as ministering winds which correlates to that which Jesus stated in John 3, “The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit” (and yes, this text has both “wind” and “Spirit” as pneuma and translates them differently due to context).
Plus, just because you want to argue against the original, traditional and majority view of Genesis 6, you not only build a whole doctrine on one word but also ignore every single description of Angles in the Bible.
And that was the end of it as he no longer replied.
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