Discussing Hugh Ross’s Reasons to Believe video “Who Were the Nephilim?”

Hugh Ross’s Reasons to Believe posted a video titled 28:19 RTB 101: Who Were the Nephilim? which led to the following discussion.

Jeff Spearman commented

Great explanation.  Sons of God in the Old Testament are always angels.  The Nephilim were the offspring of the fallen angels, who could take on human form, and human women.

I, Ken Ammi, replied

It’s not accurate to claim that “Sons of God in the Old Testament are always angels”: sometimes they are Angels and sometimes humans. I accept they’re Angels in Gen 6 but there’s no indication anywhere in he Bible that “angels…could take on human form, and human women” rather, they are always described as looking like human males which implies that is how they are ontologically. Yet, Ross’ is not such a great explanation since he teaches post-flood Nephilim but the Bible doesn’t.

Jeff Spearman

Yes they are always males, you’re correct.  I said the nephilim were the offspring of fallen angels and human women, as Ross said.  In the Old Testament the “sons of God” always refers to Angels, most often in the book of Job.  In the New Testament it usually refers to believers in Christ.  The book of Numbers refers to nephilim, which of course was post-flood.  Goliath is believed to have been the last of these nephilim.  When angels appeared to Abraham and accompanied him to Sodom, he initially thought they were men, and so did the homosexuals in Sodom, verifying that they can assume human form.

Ken Ammi

Most interesting.

I had noted that Ross “teaches post-flood Nephilim but the Bible doesn’t.”

Yes, “The book of Numbers refers to nephilim” but “refers to” does not equate that they were actually alive and on the ground at that time: you are basing that on actually believing an “evil report” by guys whom God rebuked.

Rather, you should accept Genesis 7:7, 23; Hebrews 11:7; 1 Peter 3:20; and 2 Peter 2:5 which tell us that eight people and some animals made it past the flood.

Yes, “Goliath is believed to have been the last of these nephilim” but “believed” is one issue but the contents of the Bible is another: he is referred to as having been a Repha, not a Nephil.

Those examples don’t “verifying that they can assume human form” since they contain no indication that they were assuming human form. Rather, just take them as they are written: Angels are in human form naturally, that’s just how they look and we were made “a little lower” than then.

A certain Wberry replied

I believe this perspective. Ken Ammi is not looking at it the same way. Hopefully he will get there.

Lee Overthrow chimed in with

Hi you say that there is no were in the Bible that says that Angel can take on Human Form. Please read Genesis 19:1-11 This passage of Scripture speaks of Two Angels taking on Human Form EATING a meal with  Lot and his family,  the men of Sodom wanted to have Sex with them and Lot offered his Daughters, and the Angels then Blinded the men of Sodom.

Ken Ammi

Can you quote Genesis 19:1-11 where it “speaks of Two Angels taking on Human Form” or at Sodom? See, the issue is you see that in the Bible Angels are described as looking just like human males but rather than accepting that Angels look just like human males you’re inventing un-biblical claims about them.

Lee Overthrow

Explain what you mean the issue is me what issue are you on about.  And don’t you believe that Two ANGELS visited Lot at SODOM and took on the appearance of men. Explain what your saying.

Ken Ammi

I’m saying that there’s not one single statement in the whole Bible about any such thing as “ANGELS…took on the appearance of men.” See, you’re reading a physical description of Angels, without any indication that such is not their natural look, but you’re denying that their natural look and are inserting an unbiblical concept about them merely taking on the appearance of men. The logical and theo-logical conclusion is that God created Angels to look like human males—a difference is that they have access to realms/dimension that we currently don’t.

Well, that ended it since no more replies were forthcoming.

See my various books here.

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Why I Don’t Hold to ​Substance Dualism but to ​Substance Trialism

In this context, substance refers to what which makes up a being, humans in this case, and so refers to our fundamental construct, our ontology.

​Terminology can be tricky but, in short, substance dualism, referring to two, proposes that we consist of body and spirit or of body and soul.

The substance trialism I am proposing proposes that we are body, soul, and spirit.

What the difference between soul and spirit may be is also tricky—as is where mind comes into the mix especially since some would claim no distinction between soul and spirit and claim that mind is just an a.k.a. for soul/spirit.

In any case, my proposal is actually very, very simple and can be said to be premised upon one biblical verse.

Variously, Genesis 2:7 reads thusly:

ESV: then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.

KJV: And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

NASB: Then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and the man became a living person.

NIV: Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

God form the body and infuses into it “the breath of life” which results in “became a living soul,” “a living person,” “a living being.”

Conceptually, this appears to tell us that God caused a body to be infused with one of His (what theologians would term) communicable attributes.

God causes the body to become animated when He transfers to it something that causes it to become animated which is describes as becoming a living being, coming to life.

A basic level metaphor for what how I am reading this is that the body is like a computer’s hardware: the physical components, the aspects of it we can see and touch.

What God breathes into the body is like the spirit, the electricity without which the computer does not function.

Living soul/person/being would be like the software. Hardware plus electricity would still result in a computer that does nothing. The point of combining hardware and electricity is so that the software is given a manner whereby to manifest, to function, to be expressed, to do.

The spirit within us seems to be an impersonal force, energy. I am granting that in any langue words, phrases, terms can have more than one meaning and more than one usage.

For example, we hear of someone having “the spirit of” what have you—jealously, for example.

A spirit, proper, has no flesh and bone (Luke 24:39)—is not physical—and yet, can incarnate. Biblically, there are some spirits who are not incarnated, such as demons, and some spirits who are incarnated, such as humans.

A disincarnate spirit may perhaps be thought of as a mind without a brain and would seem to be more like a spirit and soul since it exhibits characteristics of personhood which, on my theory, are soulish.

The soul/person/being is the personal aspect of who we are, it is who we are—and may be correlateable to mind.

In the simplest of terms, just like a computer is hardware, software, and electricity (an electricity that is not intrinsic to it, by the way, but comes from without—just like God infused the body with the spirit of life), so we humans are a substance trialism of body, soul, and spirit.

This beings some emotive Atheist counters into play since some have asserted that since if the brain gets damaged and the person ceased to function as they once did (due to dying or becoming mentally challenged in some way) then that proves there are no minds but only brains.

Plugging my metaphor into this concludes in that if we smash a computer’s hardware with a baseball bat and so the computer ceases to function, then that proves that software does not exist.

Moreover, we would be dealing with a damaged enough body that the soul would no longer be able to express itself through it.

Yet, it may be possible to retrieve the software from a non-functioning computer/hardware and re-install it into a new computer. And were we have a picture of what resurrection implies (even if it is a bit sloppy since we would be dealing with repairing the damaged hardware) since God would seem to retrieve the soul/software from the damaged body/hardware, would repair the body/hardware, upload the soul/software, and reinfuse it with the spirit/electricity.

See my various books here.

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Discussion about “Steve Quayle:The Truth About Nephilim Giants”

Due to a video titled Steve Quayle:The Truth About Nephilim Giants, the following discussion took place.

A certain J Paul noted

The “sons of God ” in Genesis 6: 1- 4 are the fallen angels and fallen gods (that God had created on the very same day that HE created the Heaven and the Earth on Day 1).

Psalm 82:1, 6-7 > God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; HE judgeth among the gods…. I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

Matthew 24:37-38 > But as the days of Noe (Noah) were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

The reference to “eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage” in above verses is not necessarily about mankind going about their daily routines but about the activities of (i)  the fallen sons of God who took in marriage the daughters of men and (ii) and genetically corrupted all flesh – man, beasts etc (iii) their offspring who indulged in eating human flesh and drinking human blood until they were all wiped out in the universal flood in the days of Noah

Historic realities :

Despotic totalitarian regimes throughout history have also destroyed people and cultures, and human civilisations.

God has destroyed cities after the time of the universal flood e.g.  (Sodom & Gomorah).

God’s covenant and promise after the universal flood in the days of Noah, is that (i) there will no more be a universal flood or (ii) a flood that will destroy all flesh and HE has kept HIS promise (iii) this earth and all the works thereon will end with a fire.

Scripture is clear that God will not allow transhumanism or hybrids or chimera like creatures to prosper and negate HIS plan and purpose for mankind and besides HE has appointed the time within which HE will accomplish HIS purpose.

Genesis 9:9 – 13 > And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you (Noah), and with your seed after you; And with every living creature that is with you, of the fowl, of the cattle, and of every beast of the earth with you; from all that go out of the ark, to every beast of the earth. And I will establish my covenant with you, “neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood”; “neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth”. And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations:

I do set my bow (rainbow) in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between Me and the earth.

Read after the flood in the days of Noah – Nimrod and his attempt to build to reach heavens

Genesis 10:8 -10  > And Cush begat Nimrod: he began to be a mighty one in the earth. He … And the beginning of his kingdom was Babel, and Erech, and Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar.

Genesis 11:4, 8 -9 > And they said, Go to, “let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven”; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth… So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off (gave up) to build the city. Therefore is the name of it called Babel; …

Is it reasonable to think that the dispersed from Babel might have attempted again to build structures to try & reach heaven.

It should therefore not be hard to use the logic of reason to conclude that whenever mankind is corrupted by the seed of fallen angels and/or fallen gods, God will destroy locally (not universally) through floods and consequent mud floods the hybrids that are not the “humankind” as HE will also do once and for all in the future at the end of Time.

Shalom

I, Ken Ammi, replied

In that case, He must have created the Angels (how are “‘sons of God’…fallen angels AND fallen gods?) just before the Earth since they witnessed its creation (Job 38:7).

Matthew 24:37-38 isn’t about “the activities of (i)  the fallen sons of God” since in the parallel passage in Luke 17 Jesus says the same thing about the days of Lot so that it was about mankind.

What makes you think Angels, “genetically corrupted all flesh – man, beasts”? Is it due to Gen 6:11 stating, “the earth was corrupt…all flesh had corrupted their way”?

What make you think Nephilim “indulged in eating human flesh and drinking human blood”?

Or were you just summing up part of what the Bible says with part of folklore from millennia after the Torah was written?

There’s no indication that Nimrod had anything to do with the Tower.

No worries about “whenever mankind is corrupted by the seed of fallen angels and/or fallen gods” since the only Angles who did so were incarcerated (Jude and 2 Peter 2).

Shalom

J Paul

Ken Ammi  – of course HE created the angels and the gods when HE created Heaven as revealed in Genesis 1: 31 to Genesis 2:2 > And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

Note – the host of them refers to stars, angels, gods. e.g. Genesis 32 : 1 >

And Jacob went on his way, and the angels of God met him. And when Jacob saw them, he said, This is God’s host: …

e.g. Deuteronomy 4:19 >

And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest “the sun, and the moon, and the stars”, even all “the host of heaven”, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, …

e.g. Deuteronomy 17:3 > And hath gone and served “other gods”, and worshipped them, either “the sun, or moon, or any of the host” of heaven, which I have not commanded;

HE finished all creation at the end of the 6th day. HE knew what fallen angels and fallen gods that HE created would do and cause Man to sin and therefore the verse in Revelation 13:8 > And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of “the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world”

Note : there are two ways to interpret that (1) the Lamb was slain in concept according to God’s wisdom for redeeming Believers. OR (2) since God is outside of time and space, everything is happening as part of one long day in HIS perspective. For God who is covered in light (Psalm 104:1-2 > Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: … ) there can be no nights just one continous day.

There is another verse that explains how God views things – once HIS Word is pronounced it’s done and will not return to HIM  unfulfilled as declared in Isaiah 55:11 > So shall MY word be that goeth forth out of MY mouth: it shall not return unto ME void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Ken Ammi

Indeed, we agree that he created Angels before the Earth.

I had asked “how are ‘sons of God,’” both, “fallen angels and [also] fallen gods?” and who are the “gods”? It seems that the “gods” are the fallen Angels aka demons.

These are the left-over issues:

What makes you think Angels, “genetically corrupted all flesh – man, beasts”? Is it due to Gen 6:11 stating, “the earth was corrupt…all flesh had corrupted their way”?

What make you think Nephilim “indulged in eating human flesh and drinking human blood”?

Or were you just summing up part of what the Bible says with part of folklore from millennia after the Torah was written?

There’s no indication that Nimrod had anything to do with the Tower.

No worries about “whenever mankind is corrupted by the seed of fallen angels and/or fallen gods” since the only Angles who did so were incarcerated (Jude and 2 Peter 2).

Shalom!

Ken Ammi

Again, “Indeed, we agree that he created Angels before the Earth.”

Again, “I had asked ‘how are ‘sons of God,’’ both, ‘fallen angels and [also] fallen gods?’ and who are the ‘gods’? It seems that the ‘gods’ are the fallen Angels aka demons.”

Now you say, “angels and the gods…angels, gods…fallen angels and fallen gods…”

J Paul

There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. The sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, also after the flood and thus were born Nephilim again.

Ken Ammi

It’s a little hard to follow what you mean since you jumped from the vague, generic, subjective, multi-usage, and undefined English word “giants” the specific Hebrew word “Nephilim.”

Please don’t chase an English word around a Hebrew Bible.

See when you quoted Gen 6:4 “giants” was rendering (not even translating) “Nephilim” but when you refer to “Nephilim again” post-flood you’re exclusively relying on one single verse in an “evil report” no one should believe.

Other references to “giants” post-flood are to “Rephaim” not to “Nephilim.”

Now, you say “also after that” refers to the flood but why is it that they very text you quoted doesn’t refer to the flood (in fact, it’s not even mentioned for the very first time until a full 13 vss. later).

So, when you say “also after the flood and thus were born Nephilim again” there’s no reliable indication of that and you also imply that God failed.

And that ended the discussion.

See my various books here.

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A plea: I have to pay for server usage and have made all content on this website free and always will. I support my family on one income and do research, writing, videos, etc. as a hobby. If you can even spare $1.00 as a donation, please do so: it may not seem like much but if each person reading this would do so, even every now and then, it would add up and really, really help out. Here is my donate/paypal page.

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Comments on the vid: Data on the problem of evil from Star Trek’s “Hero Worship” episode

This video led to the following discussion.

Julio Hernandez commented

I fail to recognize anything remotely similar to the “problem of evil” here…

I, Ken Ammi, replied

Data would be willing to suffer in exchange for certain experiences. This touches upon the (theological) problem of evil since if God has sufficient reason(s) for allowing it then it is not a problem: reason(s) such as bringing about a greater good.

jursamaj noted

  1. If God were omnipotent (as generally asserted) then he could bring about that greater good without the evil. Anything less is no omnipotence.
  2. If we can’t see a greater good, we can’t use it to excuse the evil we can see. That good remains hypothetical.
  3. That Data would be willing to suffer for a good he feels outweighs the suffering has no connection to the actions of an omnipotent good. Data knows that omnipotence isn’t an option, he just weighing the options that could be available.
  4. Spiner is speaking from a script. The words don’t really reflect what such an android would choose, but what a human thinks this android would choose. It’s incoherent, because if the android can’t feel, how could it feel it was missing something?

Ken Ammi

Friend, you began with a conclusion based on hidden assumptions so first back up and tell us how does your worldview 1) provide a premise for truth, logic, and ethics, 2) for adhering to them, and 3) for demanding that others do likewise?

Johnny Carcinogen chimed in thusly

I believe I must agree with some of the points laid out by others in the comments, that this does speak directly to the problem of evil. However, what you offer is something of an interesting argument, that evil exists in much the same way that we can only know and experience positive and pleasurable emotions/experiences because we have the negative and unpleasurable emotions/experiences to compare them to.

I must, as I started, disagree. If a creator being were infinitely omnipotent, then they would be to create a method for recognizing good without the existence of evil& the harm that evil does to people.

Ken Ammi

Well, I argued no such thing, actually, but noted “if God has sufficient reason(s) for allowing it then it is not a problem: reason(s) such as bringing about a greater good.”

jursamaj

  1. One does not “adhere” to truth and logic, any more than one “adheres” to physics.
  2. None of those issues has anything to do with the problem of evil.
  3. If it did, your worldview would do no better.

Ken Ammi

Seems you decided to simply side-step 1), you commented on 2), and implied a doing away with 3) along the way. Well, you can attempt to not adhere to physics and may die as a result and the same could be said about logic yet, you could not adhere to logic and survive but simply be mistaken. Thus, “One does not ‘adhere’ to truth and logic, any more than one ‘adheres’ to physics” is a category error and if you do not adhere to logic then we cannot even have a discussion. You seem to not see how 1), 2) and 3) are the very foundation upon which to even have a discussion about the problems (plural, actually) of evils (plural, actually) since without answering those then there cannot even be a discussion beyond you asserting emotional statements.

jursamaj

You are mistakens (plural, actually).  [👈🏼that’s a joke, in case you didn’t get it]

I did in fact comment on all 3 of your points, in that they are irrelevant to the discussion of the Problem of Evil, and that your worldview doesn’t explain them any better than mine.

Truth, logic, and physics simply are.  They aren’t laws that demand adherence, as political laws do.  You can choose to speed or not.  You don’t “adhere” to physics when you fall, because you have no choice in the matter.  You can take advantage of physics, to do things, but that isn’t adherence.  Likewise with truth and logic.  Ethics aren’t even involved in the Problem of Evil.  The POE uses defined terms, in ways that don’t involve making ethical judgements.  While truth & logic may well be foundational, we both already agree those are real, so neither of us needs to justify them.

I have no idea what you mean by “implied a doing away with 3) along the way”.

To address your actual argument, which you stated to Johnny, that God could be allowing evil to accomplish a greater good, you clearly don’t understand omnipotence.  An omnipotent god could accomplish that greater good without evil.  That is why all christian arguments on the POE fail.

Ken Ammi

“mistakens”? I love it and will have to remember that one.

If truth, logic and ethics are irrelevant to the discussion of the problem(s) of evil(s) (plural, actually). [👈🏼that’s NOT a joke, in case you didn’t get it] then it matters not nor can we discuss it since there is no imperative to be truthful, logical or ethical so we

can both say whatever we want however truthful or not, however logical or not, and there are no ethics holding our metaphorical feet to the fire of being truthful and logical within discussions.

For example, when you say “your worldview doesn’t explain them any better than mine” you are basing that on a hidden assumption of truth and logic.

You must be an Atheist to say “Truth, logic, and physics simply are” since that will be your ultimate reply to any meta issue: it just is.

Also, since on your worldview, “They aren’t laws that demand adherence” then you just destroyed the aforementioned ability to have discussions and hold each other accountable for the validity of our

statements.

But when you say “They aren’t laws that demand adherence, as political laws do” you seem to not have considered the “laws” of logic. For example, before humans recognized logic did the universe both exist and also not exist in the same sense at the same time?

When you fall you, by definition, adhere to physics which is why you fall in the first place: it is not about choice, it is about that it is a law acting upon you. Granted, one can be illogical and still survive (yet, in some cases they can be illogical and not survive it) but that does not make it any less a set of laws.

If “Ethics aren’t even involved in the Problem of Evil” then there is not POE as ethics is the very premise upon which the POE is based–which is why it is just an Atheist activist ruse to complain about it, of course.

That we agree that “truth & logic may well be foundational…are real,” even if they “simply are” but the problem is that on an Atheist view there is no imperative to adhere to them.

Any viable worldview would have to account for good and evil (not the pseudo-good and pseudo-evil of an Atheist worldview which makes those terms and concepts purely emotive and subjective), beautiful acts of love and horrible acts of violence, etc., etc., etc. and we find that the Biblical worldview is that God created things according to His will, there was a fall, creation will be redeemed, and then God will have accomplish that greater, ultimate, good after which there will be no more evil. This brings us back around to that God did things in the manner in which He did them and for His own reasons—and since you say that truth, logic and ethics “are irrelevant to the discussion of the Problem of Evil…aren’t laws that demand adherence” then you sawed off the branch upon which you sit.

Keep in mind that even if “all christian arguments on the POE fail” you are still not rid of the POE (even if you fall for actually taking the Atheist worldview which says, “Evil? What evil?” as a denial tactic).

jursamaj

You make a lot of unsupportable assertions, most of which are irrelevant to the POE.  It’s really quite simple:

  • We agree that there is evil in the world.
  • If there is an omnipotent god, it could have accomplished any goal without evil. (By definition of “omnipotent”.)
  • If that omnipotent god created everything, then it created that evil. (Since everything that exists is part of that “created everything”.)
  • An all-loving being doesn’t intentionally create evil. (If you disagree, then we aren’t talking about the same definition of “loving”.)

The obvious conclusion is that any such omnipotent creator can’t possibly by all-loving.  That is the POE.  [Note that atheists don’t have to answer the POE, because the POE is specifically about how an omniscient, omnipotent, all-loving god can exist in a world that has evil.  Since atheists don’t claim such a being exists, there is no POE for them to answer.  If you are lumping anything else into the POE, you simply don’t understand the POE.]

A note on one of your sillier assertions, that atheistic ideas of good & evil are subjective: all ideas of good & evil are subjective.  If you say it comes from God, and God has a mind, then that is subjective by definition.  Something that is objective is true even if no mind is around to think about it.

Ken Ammi

This is getting interestinger and interestinger.

Well, friend, we may “agree that there is evil in the world” but one man’s evil is another man’s good—as we shall see.

Regarding “If there is an omnipotent god, it could have accomplished any goal without evil” you say “By definition of ‘omnipotent'” but bypass the definition of “evil.”

In any case, omnipotence does not mean doing what you subjectively think is best. If God has a reason for having done it a certain way then that too would be omnipotence: knowing better and doing it that way.

On Atheism however, evil is even worse because the evil doer enjoys it and ultimately gets away with it and/or evil becomes a good such as when, for example, some of the most famous Atheists argue that rape played a beneficial role in human evolution—and on evolution, the death of the less fit is a beneficial good.

Thus, the P(s)OE(s) are some of the best reasons for rejecting Atheism. Moreover, Atheist cannot reject God due to the P(s)OE(s) for the very reason that an Atheist universe is one whereby there is no objective, absolute, universal evil which means the Atheist cuts off the branch on which she sits in order to voice her condemnation or evil and rejection of God.

When it comes to God creating evil the issues are that which is known as God’s perfect will vs. God’s permissive will.

This also ties in with “If that omnipotent god created everything, then it created that evil” the reply to which is that the omnipotent God did not created everything, did not created evil, “An all-loving being doesn’t intentionally create evil.”

Now, I refer to P(s)OE(s) because there is not singular problem of evil but there are multiple problems of evils. Thus, when you say “atheists don’t have to answer the POE, because the POE is specifically about how an omniscient, omnipotent, all-loving god can exist in a world that has evil” is only one aspect of it.

If an Atheist rejects God due to one of the PsOEs then, guess what, nothing has changed—and now they do not even have God to blame for it anymore.

Thus, the Atheist will they take any of the routes I noted: claim there is not absolute evil, claim that evil is or can be good, guarantee that evil just is and is un-redeemable, or whatever incoherent consoling delusion they may chose.

When you say “all ideas of good & evil are subjective” you must understand that you just utterly discredited your own arguments since you cannot even any longer claim there even exists any such thing as the POE since you have defined the E out of existence.

jursamaj

By the definition of ‘omnipotence’, an omnipotent god could have created a world with evil or a world without evil.  We don’t need to define that evil, because the bible story does it for us.  By God’s own standard, it created a world with evil, and by God’s own standard, evil must be avoided.  Thus, by God’s own standard, it committed an evil act, and is not perfectly good.  That is the Problem of Evil (not “only one aspect of it”, that’s the whole thing).  Even if you could show atheism to be incoherent (which you can’t) that would not save the bible story from incoherence.

There is no point in re-addressing your other babble, when you refuse to look at the actual point.

Ken Ammi

It is 100% un-biblical that God “created a world with evil.”

Atheism is incoherent by definition: it fails before it even beings.

For example, none of what you said is the least bit coherent on Atheism since you are appealing to logic, which your worldview cannot account for, and that you should adhere to it, which your worldview cannot account for, and that others should do likewise, which your worldview cannot account for since there is no universal imperative to do so.

There are PsOEs since, for example, a person murdering another person is an evil but so is a hurricane killing a person is also an evil but they are very different.

If you reject God due to the a POE you discredit yourself from rejecting God due to the a POE since the result would be the collapse of the premise upon which you sought to discredit God in the first place.

jursamaj

Unbiblical?  Isaiah 45:7 “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.”

And even if it were denied in the bible, that would just mean the was incorrect.  If a god created everything that exist (besides itself) and evil exists, then necessarily that god created that evil.  That the writers of the bible weren’t able to see the obvious logical consequences of their claims simply proves that the bible was not in any sense created by an omniscient & honest being.

No worldview needs to or can “account for logic”.  Logic is just part of the rules humans have written down to describe the world.  If the universe behaved in a different way, then logic would have different axioms.  If that is simply not possible, then logic couldn’t have been other than it is, and nobody needs to account for it being the only way it can be.

As for “universal imperative”, neither atheists nor theists can really offer one.  You claim to do so, but that is mere assertion.

Regarding your assertion of multiple problems of evil, that’s just childishness.  That there is more than one sort of evil doesn’t constitute different problems.  There is only 1 problem: that those evils exist at all at the same time as an omnipotent, omniscient, all-loving creator.  Anybody who doesn’t claim such a creator doesn’t need to explain the existence of evil, since there is no logical argument to show such evil to be inconsistent with anything else.

Unless you have something substantive to say, I can’t see any point revisiting this once per week, and this will be our last exchange on the matter.

Ken Ammi

Friend, I noted “It is 100% un-biblical that God ‘created a world with evil’” since we have no indication of that. We have indication of a fall after the creation. Isaiah 45:7 does not have to be taken to mean that God “created a world with evil” but that He creates it as in uses it towards His ends, “That they may know…that there is none beside me. I am the LORD…let them [ye heavens…skies…earth] bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.”

Yet, in any case: your worldview does not provide you a premise upon which to condemn anything—not God, not the Bible, not be (if I misrepresented it), etc.

Also that “god created everything that exist” is vague since, for example, we have indication that God created certain kinds of thing but did not, for example, create atomic bombs.

Every worldview needs to “account for logic” even if you state that in recognition that yours does not. Now, when you claim “Logic is just part of the rules humans have written down to describe the world” you have created, at least, three problems:

  1. You are telling me that some accidentally existing apes have written things down but why should I care about what accidentally existing apes say?

See, 2. if such is the case then there is no absolute universal imperative to adhere to what accidentally existing apes wrote down.

And 3. you are mixing up ontology and description: that accidentally existing apes have written down descriptions of the world means that, by definition, logic exists extrinsically to accidentally existing apes—it preexisted us. You are referring to our description of that preexistent observed phenomena. Thus, on your worldview we humans are accidental, so is logic (which you admit), so is our ability to discern it, and there is no absolute universal imperative upon which to do so (which you admit).

That which you subjectively find to be “childishness” or “substantive” are not standards.

There are not only the different sorts I noted but also the emotional problem of evil, the intellectual (or logical or philosophical) problem of evil, the theological problem of evil, the Atheistic problem of evil, etc., etc., etc.

But recall that you cannot say “those evils exist at all at the same time as an omnipotent, omniscient, all-loving creator” since:

  1. On your worldview you have no premise upon which to state that not condemn it.
  2. On your worldview “evil” is subjective and can actually be “good” (which you seem to admit).

But I see why you are desperate to claim “this will be our last exchange on the matter” since it is usually when Atheist begin to think one nanometer deeper than that to which they have become accustomed and they begin to see their worldview collapsing around them that they run away.

Ken Ammi replying to a comment by Joshua Opell that seems to have been deleted

Seems that you jumped to multiple conclusions so, let’s review:

“problem of evil”: what problem? Is there such a thing on your worldview?

“objective morality”: is not assumed, it’s evidenced (I’d opt for the term ethics, referring to the ethos).

“contradiction”: is that a problem on your worldview and if so, how so?

“if god has any reason to allow evil, then he’s not good”: so are you saying that, as far as I know, 100% of parents are not good since we allow evil to befall our kids? Also, what’s the problem with God not being “good” on your worldview?

Joshua Opell

My worldview is irrelevant to the problem because atheists don’t have to believe in such a thing in order to demonstrate a contradiction in the Christian position.

The whole point of the problem is that it shows an incompatibility with the existence of evil in the world and the god that Christians believe in.

The difference is is that parents are not omnipotent, omniscient, or morally perfect like your god is supposed to be.

Your god not being good is only a problem for you since you believe him to be good.

Ken Ammi

I’m empathetic to why you instantly threw your worldview under the bus. Yet, you need to consider how your worldview is utterly relevant since if you apply it then there’s no problem of evil, nor demonstrating a contradiction since your worldview discredits the very concept of contradictions, of condemning them, etc.

Thus, you may have an emotive subjective personal preference based on hidden assumptions about some supposedly alleged incompatibility but that’s on the level of demanding that your preferred ice-cream flavor is the best or a “My Dear Diary, today I feel…” entry.

So, rather than beginning with conclusions, begin with your worldview, apply its implications and eventually work towards what you have thus far merely asserted.

Joshua Opell

The problem of evil is only a problem for the Christian since they do believe in evil. If they also believe that god is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect god, then they have an inconsistency within their position. The problem of evil shows a contradiction with the position of the Christian.

If you also believe in the principle of contradiction, then you can’t escape the fact that the existence of evil and suffering in the world is completely incompatible with the existence of your god.

The problem of evil is an indirect argument. It doesn’t require the atheist to believe in evil as a concept. It assumes the existence of evil and an omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect being to show that the Christian worldview leads to a contradiction.

Take the analogy of a police officer allowing a crime to take place in his presence.

If a police officer witnesses that a person is about to be stabbed and does nothing to stop it, then that’s completely incompatible with him being a police officer.

The same way that it’s incompatible for a good god who is omnipotent and omniscient to allow evil and suffering.

Ken Ammi

Friend, you utterly ignored the key problem with your assertions. Thus, they are discredited by definition.

“The problem of evil is only a problem for the Christian since they do believe in evil”: indeed, which is part of why Atheism is to be utterly rejected.

But what you asserted is therefore self-defeating, since “The problem of evil is only a problem for the Christian since they do believe in evil” then, by definition, you’ve disqualified yourself from complaining about it, condemning it, etc.

Thus, you discredited your rejection of God.

But you want to play the contradiction card even though you can’t since “The problem of evil is only a problem for the Christian since they do believe in evil.”

But you merely ignored that I already noted, “‘contradiction’: is that a problem on your worldview and if so, how so?” and also, “your worldview discredits the very concept of contradictions, of condemning them, etc.” so you’re jumping to conclusions by beginning with them—and doing so without a premise, of course, based on hidden assumptions, of course.

And that was the end of all discussions.

See my various books here.

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Discussing the claim “6 fingers on each hand, even has Gigantism in one finger! Giant Descendant!!!”

The video titled, “6 fingers on each hand, even has Gigantism in one finger! Giant Descendant!!! #shorts #youtube” led to the following discussion.

Stacy Perkins commented

All the proof that ppl should need, “There were giants in the earth in those days and after”. All praise to The Most High God Yahweh

I, Ken Ammi, replied

But after what?

JiibarO commented

The proof is the Gospel; no other proof is needed.

“And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.” – Luke 16:31

ADC Phenomenon commented

It’s a mutation. Jeeeeez.

Ken Ammi

It’s just a mutation that causes the genetic data to build a finger/toe to be multiplied. But unless you know the guy’s height, you can say it’s giantism.

Nikki Bridgewater @Ken Ammi

the flood

Ken Ammi @Nikki Bridgewater

Well, you’re inserting that into a text that doesn’t say that. In fact, we’re dealing with v. 4 but the flood isn’t even mentioned for the very first time until v. 17–a full 13 vss. later.

Leon Hudson @Ken Ammi

no but somethings can grow extra things like fingers toes but do not grow tall does mean he couldn’t have genes for the Giants like from the bible he just didn’t have the gene that makes you giant us active and if you are normal and have extra fingers and toes they most of the time can’t use then and they are deformed so they are removed then his works though genes from giants

Ken Ammi @Leon Hudson

I can’t know to whom you’re referring as “Giants like from the bible” since the English version you’re appealing to render (doesn’t even translate) both “Nephilim” and “Rephaim” as “giants.”

Dr. Froman @Ken Ammi

the after refers to the fact Giants hide in the earth and reemerged afterwards. The original Cannanittes were Giants. After the Exodus Moses led the Israelites to the land of Cannan to claim the Holy Land God promised them but when they arrived they did a recon of the land and found giants so large they said they felt like grasshoppers in their sight. Thus they wandered the desert for 40 more years because they didn’t want to tango with them big boys.

Its always a reference to state they are still there in the earth today.

Ken Ammi @Dr. Froman

Did the flood have anything to do with Nephilim–and if so, what?

What makes you think that “Giants hide in the earth”?

You’ll have to tell me what you mean by “Giants” since you use it to refer to Nephilim but when you say “The original Cannanittes were Giants” you must mean “Rephaim.”

At least that’s what you should mean if you’re seeking to be biblically accurate.

You’re too generic when you say, “Moses led the Israelites…they…they…and found giants” since that was merely asserted by 10 of the unfaithful, disloyal, contradictory, embellishers whom God rebuked for presenting an evil report: why do you believe them?

Their deception was the premise for why they “wandered the desert for 40 more years.”

Since “they are still there in the earth today”: where are they?

Dr. Froman @Ken Ammi

Ok 1 the Rephaim are descendants of the original Nephilim. Rephaim is the term for the later generations who weren’t as tall as the first generations and weren’t as powerful but we’re still very deadly none the less. Nephilim are just another name for giants all though that is technically debated since the translation is Fallen ones but also translates to one of great size and strength also meaning those who are tyrants. So Nephilim could basically encompass the fallen angels known as the watchers as well as their offspring the giants.

2nd The flood happened BECAUSE of the Nephilim and their horrible actions towards mankind by eating them and enslaving them but also by breeding with them mixing angelic blood with human blood along with all the other hybrid creatures created during those times which went against a fundamental law of no interbreeding of the species. Meaning humans stay humans, animals stay animals, angels stay angels etc etc. It was also a slap in the face to God and was one of the many attempts to destroy any chances of God keeping His promise to Adam and Eve about the coming of The Lamb to provide Salvation and allow a true and proper Spiritual connection with God again. Since Christ could only provide Salvation for mankind if He was true humanity and wouldn’t have worked if the Royal line was tainted with angelic DNA.

3rd I was being more basic so i didn’t have to go on this long explanation of everything that was going on since i figured you were already aware of the situation for the most part and I just wanted to answer your question of “after what?” Didn’t realize you were gonna get upset about someone just providing an explanation to what you asked.

4th The report wasn’t a lie the people found in the land of Cannan we’re descendants of Ana’k or the Anakim which are a specific group of giants and they mention how the people were huge and they felt as grasshoppers in their sight and how the cities were fortified and built to the heavens. It talks about how King Og and Bashan we’re the only ones left of Rephaim but that just means they were the tallest in the lands at that time. The further descendants were still massive people ranging from 8ft-10ft tall on average. The wandering for 40 years was due to the cowardice of the Israelites refusing to march into the land and take it and keeping their trust in God that they would be victorious in battle. Since they’ve been completely slacking in their worship of The Creator during their time in Egypt, basically forgetting about the God of their forefathers becoming weak willed spiritually is what lead to their punishment for their disregard for God’s promise on top of their already growing disdain for Moses and the God he was claiming to be serving for taking them from the comfort of Egypt. By showing utter disrespect, mistrust and disobedience towards God’s saving grace and coming gifts, they were forced to wander lost in the desert for their childish behavior and complete apathy for God’s wishes and promises.

5th There are plenty of stories from those lands and neighboring lands and well off distant lands who speak of giants being around well after the flood and how they ruled over many different civilizations for generations after and eventually we’re over thrown due to their cruel and inhumane treatment of the people they ruled over. Many of the stories mention how the few giants that survived the flood did so by hiding deep with in the Earth’s caverns and tunnels. The verse is clear and specific “There were giants ‘IN’ the Earth in those days and after….” Plenty of stories from other cultures around the world describe how the giants had set up cities underground before the flood came and continued to after it settled. Ancient folklore paints the picture where when they emerged from the Earth they are described with terms that talk as tho they were being born from the navel of the goddess that is Mother Earth. They came from out of their underground set ups and flourished again, but as they continued to breed with humans they’re offspring became shorter and shorter. Regardless they still ruled and were easily identified for being 7ft or 8ft tall in these later days still with 6 fingers and 6toes on each hand and foot and mainly having red hair and green eyes. They ruled in the Americas for generations before being overthrown and hunted but they just fled back underground where they knew they’d be safe.

6th If you don’t believe they’re still around that’s fine but that shows you don’t do your research since they’re TONS of modern day stories that speak of giants still inhabiting the mountains and the cave systems in the Earth. There’s videos of giants walking around in isolated areas caught on camera by military personnel who are on deployment or even civilians in areas like Afghanistan or Iraq, Russia, America and a few more countries. One of the most famous stories was an American special operations unit and their encounter with the Kandahar giant. There’s been videos posted of giants in the mountains where one video shows 2 that are starring and pointing at a girl filming with her phone and she’s freaking out seeing them. Another one was a guy doing digging work in the mountains and after he began hammering equipment into the rocks he starts hearing yelling and roaring coming from way down underground where he’s standing.

Whether you want to believe these stories or video footage is up to the individual but personally with ancient stories mentioning this for thousands of years ranging from the mythology of multiple cultures around the world to historical records of past countries and empires to Biblical accounts to modern day claims on top of video footage mixed with prophecy and the warnings of their return and accounts from illuminati members talking about their contact with them and future plans involving their new roles to play in the coming times of their return, i personally knew this to be true years ago and at this point its just getting more and more fun. Everyone else is entitled to their own opinion and belief that’s the beauty of God given free will but i recommend always doing through research for any and every idea or belief 1st before ever committing to anything. I hope this wasn’t too vague and generic for your liking.

Ken Ammi @Dr. Froman

I appreciate the detailed reply but henceforth, I’ll be unable to keep trading essays (since you wrote me over 1,000 words) so, I’ll be as succinct as I can be:

“Rephaim are descendants of the original Nephilim”: mere assertion.

“Nephilim are just another name for giants is jumping from a specific Hebrew term to a generic, vague, multi-usage, and undefined English one so I would need to know to what you’re referring by it.

“Nephilim” never “translates to one of great size”: that’s just a modern day error based on a few factors and isn’t a translation, it’s a (faulty) rendering.

What makes you think that “fallen angels known as the watchers” (MILLENNIA after the Torah was written) were giants/of great size?

No, “Nephilim” doesn’t encompass fallen Angels: that’s just linguistically confused.

There’s no reliable indication Nephilim were “eating them and enslaving them” nor do you say what “all the other hybrid creatures” were.

You say “The flood happened BECAUSE of the Nephilim” but that there were post-flood Nephilim so you imply that God failed.

Please don’t read into mere text: I was not upset but merely asked what you, personally, think in terms of “after what?”

You merely assert, “The report wasn’t a lie” but you then misrepresent the text various times. For example, “the people found…Anakim…giants…were huge and they felt as grasshoppers…cities were fortified and built to the heavens”:

  1. “the people” neither found nor saw nor claimed any such thing: that was just the 10 unfaithful, disloyal, contradictory, embellishers whom God rebuked for what they said within an evil report upon whom you exclusively rely for your claims.
  2. In the version you’re reading Anakim are mentioned and you seem to merely assert that they have something to do with Nephilim—please check the LXX of that verse. Now, even if (and that’s a gigantic IF) Anakim have something to do with Nephilim, you still can’t get all Rephaim having something to do with Nephilim from that one single verse but only the Anakim clan (not the whole tribe)
  3. Anakim were “giants…were huge” but the only thing we’re contextually told about them is that they were “tall”—and that’s subjective to the average Israelite male who in those days was 5.0-5.3 ft.
  4. You seem to be reading a version that implies “they felt as grasshoppers” referring to Anakim but most have it referring to Nephilim: in any case, since the report is unreliable there’s no reason to think anyone was so very, very tall.
  5. “cities were fortified and built to the heavens” is not even from Num 13, it’s from Deut 1 wherein Moses is merely relating the Num 13 and both reports—which, BTW, proves they were not above employing hyperbole, of course.

Since we’ve no physical description of Og at all, what has he to do with “the tallest” but fine, let’s go with it: Anakim were “the tallest in the lands at the time” which was my point about subjectivity since that just tell us they were taller than 5.0-5.3 ft.

You merely assert, “further descendants were still massive people ranging from 8ft-10ft tall on average.”

Perhaps there are “plenty of stories,” even though you don’t cite any, “from those lands and neighboring lands and well off distant lands who speak of giants being around well after the flood” but what does that have to do with Nephilim?

Since this is about Nephilim, when you say “Many of the stories mention how the few giants that survived the flood” you’re agreeing with “stories from those lands and neighboring lands” that contradict the Bible multiple times: Genesis 7:7, 23; Hebrews 11:7; 1 Peter 3:20; 2 Peter 2:5.

You seem to be exclusively basing your theory on the KJV and you’re misreading it since “‘IN’ the Earth” was just an older way of saying “on” the Earth.

But fine, let’s go with it: you asserted, “hiding deep with in the Earth’s caverns and tunnels…’IN’ the Earth…underground…they emerged…underground” so you are, yet again, implying that God failed.

But note that your multiple contradictions of the Bible are based exclusively on “‘IN’ the Earth” but “giants IN THE EARTH” and also “God saw that the wickedness of man was great IN THE EARTH” so, apparently, humans were living underground, but you seem to have pulled a text out of context to make a pretext for a prooftext since the KJV has God stating, “every thing that is IN THE EARTH shall die” (Gen 6:17). Now, will you abandon your theory or will you claim that God was wrong, that He failed, etc.?

You assert “7ft or 8ft tall in these later days still with 6 fingers and 6toes on each hand and foot and mainly having red hair and green eyes” but I’ve no idea what any of that has to do with Nephilim.

You assert, “They ruled in the Americas for generations before being overthrown and hunted but they just fled back underground where they knew they’d be safe” so, that must have been pre-flood and they escaped again.

Again, we’re speaking of Nephilim but you keep punting to “TONS of modern day stories that speak of giants” so you will have to clean that up.

As for “you don’t do your research,” please see these books of mine:

What Does the Bible Say About Giants and Nephilim? A Styled Giantology and Nephilology

Nephilim and Giants in Bible Commentaries: From the 1500s to the 2000s

Bible Encyclopedias and Dictionaries on Angels, Demons, Nephilim, and Giants: From 1851 to 2010

The Apocryphal Nephilim and Giants: Encountering Nephilim, and Giants in Extra-Biblical Texts

The Scholarly Academic Nephilim and Giants: What do Scholarly Academics Say About Nephilim Giants?

The Pastoral Nephilim and Giants: What Do Pastors Teach and Preach?

Nephilim and Giants as per Pop-Researchers: A comprehensive consideration of the claims of I.D.E. Thomas, Chuck Missler, Dante Fortson, Derek Gilbert, Brian Godawa, Patrick Heron, Thomas Horn, Ken Johnson, L.A. Marzulli, Josh Peck, CK Quarterman, Steve Quayle, Rob Skiba, Gary Wayne, Jim Wilhelmsen, et al.

Nephilim and Giants: Believe It or Not! Ancient and Neo-Theo-Sci-Fi Tall Tales

On the Genesis 6 Affair’s Sons of God: Angels or Not? A survey of early Jewish and Christian commentaries including noted on giants and the Nephilim

The Paranormal in Early Jewish and Christian Commentaries: Over a Millennia’s Worth of Comments on Angels, Cherubim, Seraphim, Satan, the Devil, Demons, the Serpent and the Dragon

When you tell me you believe in stories and videos, I hope you realize that “Afghanistan or Iraq, Russia, America” are not citations to specific locations but more of a way of saying I need to investigate entire countries (and “a girl…a guy…in the mountains” is not a citation). The Kandahar giant claim is just an internet hoax based on a couple of anonymous guys making vague claims about generic regions and promulgated by two very unreliable people—when it comes to these issues—LA Marzulli and Steve Quayle (the plagiarist).

Overall, if by “giants” you refer to subjectively unusual people then why would anyone ever deny that there’s always been subjectively unusual people. Yet, you seem to correlate subjectively unusual people to Nephilim which is your main assertion and an assertion is all that it is—and, again, you, consciously or not, are implying that God failed.

Raqam Son Of Manasseh

Yeah right, a woman gave birth to a giant baby that grew to be 30 feet tall. You Christians don’t know the bible. You never did and never will. So you come up with mythology and made up fantasies. The mysteries of the Holy Bible will never be revealed to you Christians.

Leon Hudson @Ken Ammi

I’m talking about the elohim the son’s of yah or the watcher angels that came and took daughter’s of man as wives for them selves and taught man heavenly things read book of Enoch tells great detail about what they taught man. The elohim which means many are the gods of other nations like Zeus hoard all of the Hindu gods ECT. The watcher angels are in a dry desert place covered and chained until judgement day in the earth bound. But the nation built ingravend imagines of the in there honor to worship them.

no the wonder the desert for 40 years because yah said and slay them for I’m with and will fight for you bit there trust in him failed when they heard how tall they were and didn’t do as yah commanded the to do. For not that the had to wonder the desert so that the younger generation would go a take it and listen better then the generation the was alive at that time. Yah let the older die I the over 18 years old and younger at that time over eighteen died off.

Ken Ammi @Leon Hudson

Sure, 1 Enoch asserts stuff, see my book “In Consideration of the Book(s) of Enoch.” Biblically, the sinful sons of God Angels are incarcerated in Tartarus.

When you say “slay them” who is the “them”?

Yes, they “heard how tall they were” but that was a tall tale and “they” weren’t even there.

Leon Hudson

Ken Ammi are you a Jew at all I don’t mean like ones in isreal they stolen the identity from the Jew in 70 a.d when the Jews scattered around the world. Then the Jewish Romans took everything that the Jew had and almost all of the stuff the Jew had is still hiden under the vatican City 50 miles of isreal’s things. So don’t teach my of the Jewish things at all teach the true Hebrew if not I don’t want anything to do with it.

Yes the isrealites didn’t go into the land because of the Giants there because they didn’t obey at all because they did fear the heavenly father that told them to go take it. They seen what he did to the great army of Egypt. But they didn’t trust him enough that he would deliver the land to them from the giants. So he made them wonder in the desert for forty years because of this.

Ken Ammi

​​I’ve no idea to whom you’re referring by the vague, generic, subjective, and multi-usage English word “Giants” when you say “the isrealites didn’t go into the land because of the Giants…deliver the land to them from the giants.”​​

And that, as they say, was that since no more replies were forthcoming.

See my various books here.

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Discovering “Discovering Kabbalah’s Teachings On Giants”

Undergoing review is an article by a certain Sarah who is succinctly described by the Chicago Jewish News as that she writes, “articles related to Judaism, culture and traditions.” In this case, the article is titled, Discovering Kabbalah’s Teachings On Giants.

Sarah defines Kabbalah as, “ancient Jewish mystical tradition” about which we must ponder that ancient is a subjective term since the Torah, for example, is ancient but predates Kabbalah (at least in its more formalized sense) by circa thee millennia—give or take.

In any case, she notes that it consists of, “stories and concepts…including the mysterious existence of giants” and she employs the subjective, vague, generic, and multi-usage modern English word giants an additional three times in her opening paragraph without defining it—and never defines it. Thus, we must derive her meaning from her context so let us track that.

Sarah writes, “In the Abrahamic religions, fallen angels are angels who were expelled from heaven. In the Hebrew word nefilim, the word is sometimes translated as “giants” or “the fallen ones.” The literal term “fallen angel” never appears in any Abrahamic religious texts, but it is used to describe angels who have left heaven or who have committed adultery. Fallen angels and demons frequently lure humans into committing sin, according to Wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/ wiki Fallen_angelFallen angel – Wikipedia; scholars disagree on who was the Nephilim.”

It appears that she is conflating nefilim (Nephilim) and fallen angel which would be an error since those Angels fathered Nephilim.

Technically, nefilim does not translate as giants, that is actually just a rendering, and the fallen ones is the meaning of word: fall/fallen/fellers/to cause to fall, etc.

It is inaccurate to claim that fallen angel committed adultery since one has to be married in order to commit adultery, but Angels did not get married until they came to Earth.

As for, “scholars disagree on who was the Nephilim” I will just assume that’s just a bit of broken English.

Sarah writes, “It is thought that 1 Enoch,” a.k.a. Ethiopic Enoch, “refers to giants as ‘great giants’ with heights of three hundred cubits. To put it another way, the giants stood at least 450 feet (140 meters) tall, making them truly magnificent.”

Yet, that is not the case rather, it has them being 3,000, not 300, and ells, not cubits, which amounts to ??? miles tall. Coming from a Bible contradicting text from millennia after the Torah, that is great folklore but poor reality.

Interestingly she notes, “They were feared in ancient times and remain an icon of dread to this day, even if they didn’t exist.” That is fascinating because 99.999999999999999999% of Nephilology is pure fantasy or neo-theo-sci-fi, as I term it, especially when it comes to the un-, non-, and anti-biblical assertions of the top pop-researchers who literally make their living by selling such tall-tales.

Recall out tracking of the meaning/definition and also usage of the word giants: there is the issue of Sarah’s usage and the issue of the English Bible’s usage.

Thus far, it referred to unusual height yet, she includes a subsection titled, “Exploring The Mysterious Giants: The Nephilim” so we will have to keep tracking.

Sarah writes of, “The origins of the mysterious giants, known as the Nephilim” and writes of, “Watcher Sons of God” without elucidating that she has jumped from identifying the Genesis 6 affair’s, as I term it, sons of God as angles to referring to them as Watchers which is just a Second Temple Era manner whereby to refer to sons of God when the context implies that Angels are being referenced.

Sons of God/Angels/Watchers, “mated with human women and formed a hybrid race of giants, powerful, and might. According to the Bible, the Nephilim are a hybrid race of giants known as mighty warriors and sons of Anak.”

This is rather confused:

Hybrid since they were half-Angel and half-human.

Giants referring to unusual height is something that she is concluding from her usage of the modern English word giants or from Num 13:33—or both.

As for, “powerful, and might…mighty warriors” we must first consider that since she claims that (note the specificity), “According to the Bible, the Nephilim are…known as…sons of Anak.” This means that she is appealing to, accepting as accurate, and incorporating into her Nephilology one sentence from an evil report stated by utterly unreliable guys whom God rebuked.

The only other reference to Nephilim in the Bible is Gen 6:4 and it does not provide a physical description of them thus, she is referring to them in terms of unusual height due to the utterly unreliable evil report which was just a tall-tale since we have no reliable physical description of them.

Back to, “powerful, and might…mighty warriors” well, the reliable Gen 6:4 account has them as having been mighty and well known so that powerful and of might being mighty but not warriors: they may have been warriors but we are not told of that if it was the case.

To assert that they are a.k.a. sons of Anak (when, after all, they were sons of the sons of God) is based on a non-Septuagint/LXX version of the evil report since the LXX version utterly lack any reference to Anakim. Besides, Nephilim were strictly pre-flood hybrids but Anakim were strictly post-flood humans—who did not exist until centuries post-flood and who were named Anak who was Arba’s son.

Interestingly, Sarah has not mentioned nor cited Gen 6—but only paraphrased it—and went on to specify, “Nephilim are mentioned in Numbers and Deuteronomy” yet, the (one single verse in) Numbers is utterly unreliable and no, they are not mentioned whatsoever in Deuteronomy.

She wrote that they were mentioned therein, “as powerful people who eventually became the Israelites, in addition to being the offspring of God and human women in Genesis.” I have read and have written about circa two millennia worth of Jewish and Christian folklore, commentary, etc. about Nephilim and can say that I have never encountered anyone who even ever merely implied that, “eventually became the Israelites.”

Since they supposedly, “became the Israelites” but were, “offspring of God and human women in Genesis” we will have to see how she manages to get them through the flood.

Sarah writes, “The Nephilim were described as evil by God” which is not the case, “due to their power and might, and they were thought to have been wiped out by the god” which is accurate even though she does not tell us who, “thought” that but it is crystal clear: the lived pre-flood, and there is no indication that Noah, his wife, their sons and their sons’ wives were Nephilim thus, they did not make it past the flood and there is no indication at all that they returned—both of which would actually imply that God failed.

She goes on to assert, “their lands were located from the Mediterranean to the Jordan River” which, of course, is a data-free statement or rather, one which plays off of a false assertion in an evil repot. She also tells us that they were, “ultimately eradicated by God” which was the case at the flood but, again, she has God getting rid of them in some unknown manner at some unknown time—apparently.

Sarah notes, “In Judaism, fallen angels are referred to as ‘shedim’ or ‘se’irim’. They are believed to be spiritual entities that have been corrupted by their own pride and have since been removed from Heaven” which is fair enough since she is just telling us that demons are fallen Angels—by any other name in both cases: see my article Demons Ex Machina: What Are Demons?

Now, she does note, “The belief in these spiritual beings is largely based on the Book of Enoch” and notes that therein, “fallen angels are mentioned as being responsible for many of the catastrophes that have befallen humanity throughout history.” Yet, she does not tell us that, that folkloric text has unclean spirits being the spirits of dead Nephilim—yet, since she seems to have conflated Nephilim and fallen Angels (like she conflated Nephilim and Anakin) then perhaps she did stumble into telling us that.

Sarah’s subsection, “Biblical Giants” elucidates, “In the Bible, giants are mentioned many times…Giants were seen as a race of people who were larger and more powerful than humans. They were often associated with supernatural forces, and were seen as a source of fear and awe.”

A good example of the useless nature of the unqualified, undefined, uncontextualized employment of the word giants is when she writes, “The Bible mentions the giants of Philistia, the Anakim, the Rephaim, and others. These giants were said to have been the descendants of fallen angels…Many famous battles in the Bible revolve around these giants, and it is said that God even sent a giant to fight against the Israelites at one point. The Bible also talks about giants being part of the end-times judgment, which is a reminder that no matter how powerful a giant is, no one is greater than God.”

Anakim were a clan of the Rephaim tribe who, in part, live in Philistia so, “giants of Philistia, the Anakim, the Rephaim” are essentially referring to only one thing, one people groups and biblically, “giants of Philistia” would read as, “Rephaim of Philistia” or, “Anakim of Philistia.”

As for, “others” well, we shall have to see who they are.

Since by, “These giants,” she is referring to Rephaim then there is no indication whatsoever that they were anywhere, “said to have been the descendants of fallen angels.” Yet, she may, possibly, perhaps, be able to assert Anakim were, “descendants of fallen angels” but only by exclusively appealing to Num 13:33 which, as we know by now, is utterly folly. As for the, “others” being, “descendants of fallen angels” well, since we do not know to whom she is referring then all we can say with certainty is that any descendants of fallen Angels only lived as far as the flood—period, full stop, end of story.

If by, “Many famous battles in the Bible revolve around these giants” she means, “Many famous battles in the Bible revolve around Anakim” or, “Many famous battles in the Bible revolve around Rephaim” then very well then but, what of it?

I am unaware that, “God even sent a giant to fight against the Israelites” (and Sarah asserts a lot but quotes and cites virtually nothing).

I am also unaware of, “giants being part of the end-times judgment.”

She adds, “In the Bible, the Last Rephaim, Og, is regarded as one of the most powerful figures” and refers to, “the story of Og and the Rephaim” specifically, “Og, as a massive figure…massive size, strength, and power.”

Since Og was a king then the terms, “powerful…massive…strength, and power” could apply to him, even if non-physically. But as for him having been a, “massive figure” of, “massive size” note that the Bible does not provide any physical description of him whatsoever. And to write in terms of, “the story of Og and the Rephaim” is somewhat misguided since he, himself, was a Repha.

Well, she did not tell us who the cryptic, “others” are nor how nor where abouts, “In the Bible, giants are…often associated with supernatural forces.”

Also, besides some sermonizing homily about metaphorically defeating giants in our lives, she also did not tell us much about Kabbalah’s Teachings On Giants.

See my various books here.

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Discussing the question: Nietzsche thought atheism was a huge, horrible idea, so why do today’s atheists trivialize it?

That question was posted to the Quora site.

Krister Sundelin replied

A: Because: Atheism is not based on authority, but on not believing in gods (this is something that theists do not seem to be able to wrap their heads around).

Not believing in gods is not an idea, but a state of mind (this too is something that theists do not seem to be able to grasp).

Nietzche is a bigger numpty than his ‘stasche.

I, Ken Ammi, replied

Every Atheist demand that their subjective definition of Atheism is THE authoritative one but such is not the case thus, your first point fails: Atheism is a worldview.

Your second point is playing semantic games at its worse: how is “Not believing” something “not an idea” and what does the distinction between it being an idea or “a state of mind” matter—FYI: minds entertain ideas.

A certain, “CognitiveScience” replied

Atheism is not a worldview. It simply means not theist.

Someone can be an atheist for any number of reasons.

It really is about the human mind.

Theists are easily indoctrinated into the local cultural belief system.

Atheists understand the stories are not true. Their minds are more rational and less emotional.

So why do you believe whatever you do?

Likely you never thought to question your belief. Only the beliefs of others.

I have no beliefs. ZERO.

I like knowledge. Always a sliding scale based on quality of the evidence.

Humans do not choose to be gay. Humans do not choose to be a polymath. Humans do not choose to be athletically gifted. Humans do not choose to be superstitious.

You were born with a mind predisposed to gods, religions, rituals, group think and other such things. Others are not.

I did not choose to be rational. I just am.

You are human. Just different.

Others with your type of mind believe all sorts of irrational things.

Conservative minds are like the Taliban or the Puritans. Believe as we do or die. They can’t accept different. It causes their minds too much pain from fear.

Liberal minds are more open to change and seeing the world through the eyes of others.

So while still theist they accept others.

Now atheists being human don’t like being lied to. They are also correct and don’t like superstitious humans claiming all sorts of nonsense and getting mad when it’s called out for what it is.

So is not being a superstitious blowhard a worldview? Nope.

Ken Ammi

Since you say Atheism is not a worldview then you disagree with Richard Dawkins—which is fine with me, I do it all the time.

But it’s facile and myopic to assert, “It simply means not theist” since not being a theist carries baggage and that baggage is a worldview.

On Atheism, the human mind is accidental—as is the human, of course.

You’ll have to talk to the theists who were easily indoctrinated into the local cultural belief system about that one.

You seem to jump to a lot of conclusions such “Atheists understand the stories are not true” when, on Atheism, truth is accidental, as is our ability to discern it, there’s no universal imperative to adhere to it, nor to demand that others adhere to it either.

But when you demand that all Atheists have “more rational and less emotional” minds well, you utterly discredited yourself by being so very generic.

Do you believe that you “have no beliefs”?

You hit the nail on the head with “I like knowledge” since you’re admitting it’s a subjective personal preference du jour (based on hidden assumptions) since you can’t say that gaining knowledge is a must, an ought, any sort of imperative at all, on Atheism.

You refer to “evidence” but merely imply that we ought to acquire it and rely on it—you’ve no premise for that, on Atheism.

Perhaps “Humans do not choose to be gay” but they do chose to live a gay lifestyle.

But since “Humans do not choose to be superstitious” you can’t condemn superstitious humans, such as theists, right?

But when you merely assert, “You were born with a mind predisposed to gods, religions, rituals, group think and other such things. Others are not. I did not choose to be rational,” etc., you’re merely listing Atheist talking points based on some sort of materialism which you merely seem to assume.

Minds are like Atheists, believe as we do or be murdered.. They can’t accept different. It causes their minds too much pain from fear.

You hit the subjectivism nail on the head again (well done!) with, “atheists being human don’t like being lied to” so they subjectively don’t “like” it even though on Atheism there’s no universal imperative against lying. Just like they “don’t like superstitious humans claiming all sorts of…” but what happens when those superstitious humans, who you said were born that way, don’t care what Atheists like?

Now, since you say Atheism isn’t a worldview: in what area of your thinking about anything and everything do you actually accept God’s existence?

CognitiveScience

Any “baggage” as to not being a theist is only due to theists projecting their issues. Atheists are defined by theists. I’m not carrying any “baggage” by not believing that leprechauns are real. I suppose leprechaun believers might have issues with that. Do you believe in them? Does it cause you “baggage”.

Atheism means “not theist”.

Atheists only share that they do not worship a god or gods. Why they do so may certainly differ.

As to your “accidental” and “truth” comments it sounds like woo.

Certainly atheists know the stories are not true. Humans can tell the difference between fact and fiction. Between real and imaginary. Not all humans. Not on all subjects.

Belief is not a word that defines me. I don’t believe anything. I use knowledge and probabilities. It appears you want to play some kind of semantic game with the word belief. Humans do have knowledge on many things.

So define belief exactly.

I can say I know the Christian god is not real. I’m not saying everyone can. Maybe you can or can’t. I am saying I can and the human race can. Lot’s of knowledge of why it’s myth and lies.

My having studied why humans are superstitious and why humans have false beliefs doesn’t mean all atheists do so or that they need to.

It’s knowledge not evidence. There have been many gods invented by humans. Many superstitious beliefs. All easy to learn about if you study history and anthropology. The Egyptians had their gods and the Aztecs theirs. Next is demographics and also anthropology. Humans believe what their culture teaches them. Simply pull up a Google map and it will show you a world divided into specific belief systems. Then study why small hunter gatherers didn’t need religion. They were and still are superstitious.

So we know humans are superstitious and gods are cultural. Know it. It’s not a belief. It’s knowledge.

Next is why? We know the gods aren’t real because they simply have no basis in Reality. Logic dictates that. Later evaluations using knowledge rule out gods as easily false. No need to but we can if we want to.

Next we know that current theists only believe in their god or gods. Or whatever. So we study why they can easily call another’s superstition false yet hold onto their own false belief. It’s called cognitive dissonance. Knowledge not a belief.

Humans do not choose to be gay. Theists do not choose to be superstitious. Atheists do not choose to not believe in a god. They simply can not because they know it’s not true. Know it. Not a belief. Einstein did not choose to be a genius. Artists don’t choose to be creative. Athletes do not choose to have a specific hand/eye coordination ability. This is not a belief. this is knowledge.

Not all human minds are the same. Not all human environments are the same. This is not a belief. It is knowledge.

If one has a mind pre-disposed to group think, cultural indoctrination, deference to authority, is more predisposed to symbols and ritual and can’t overcome the illusory truth effect then they likely will become some kind of a theist. What god is determined by their environment and culture. This is not a belief it is knowledge.

Again semantics. Atheists don’t like the god lies. It gets old. Certainly they don’t like other lies. Atheism isn’t a lie. Atheism is just “not theism”. But you are deflecting. You like your strawman and rhetoric.

In the end you showed your true colors. You resorted to an attack on all atheists for something that had nothing to do with atheism. Such tripe has been used for decades. Religion is politics. It’s used to attack others and create a scapegoat for issues. Religion is used to create a tribe for those in power can more easily control them. Atheism is simply “not theism”. It is not communism. It’s not liberalism. It’s simply “not theism”.

Yet your ignorance of history is only eclipsed by your ignorance of this whole subject.

So you have years of work ahead for you. Quora isn’t where you will get an exhaustive education. So put down your one book and read what is available to you in libraries all over the world.

Study why humans believe.

That provides knowledge.

When you understand you will have wisdom.

It’s possible you might not be able to. Very smart humans are also very superstitious. Lots of cognitive issues for you to overcome. Depends how much was a result of your Nurture and how much is in your Nature.

What god?

Do you have one that hasn’t been proven false? Or myth?

Ask yourself why you care what atheists think about your superstition. Stop projecting your limitations onto others.

Ken Ammi

​​All worldviews carry baggage whether you realize you’re carrying it or not.

Atheists share TONS more than that, which I can tell you by experience.

So, you’re going to run away from your worldview’s implication that truth is accidental by merely typing the word “woo”—wow!

The issues you don’t engage is that even if “atheists know the stories are not true” that tells us nothing about why that matters at all. Or, “Humans can tell the difference between fact and fiction. Between real and imaginary” so what? On Atheism there’s no universal imperative to adhere to accidental truth, accidental facts, accidental reality so you’re just getting ahead of yourself.

Do you believe that you “don’t believe anything”? Back to the issue I just noted: you (supposedly) use knowledge and probabilities to have knowledge but, on Atheism, that’s just a subjective personal preference du jour—like telling me what ice cream flavor you prefer.

Sure, you “can say”—since anyone can say anything—you “know the Christian god is not real” but you saying it is impotent.

Interestingly, one view about “why humans are superstitious” is that it’s a Darwinian survival mechanism so by arguing against superstitions you may be damaging someone’s ability to survive. Of course, the very desire, instinct to survive in the first place is accidental, on Atheism.

That “Humans believe what their culture teaches them” is a genetic fallacy, it’s also irrelevant, and you don’t actually believe it since you likely didn’t grow up in an Atheist culture.

Again, you refer to “no basis in Reality” which is irrelevant on Atheism, and “Logic dictates” which is irrelevant on Atheism or don’t you take your worldview seriously?

Interestingly, current Atheists only believe in their cosmogenic myths. Or whatever. So we study why they can easily call another’s superstition false yet hold onto their own false belief. But there’s nothing wrong with cognitive dissonance on Atheism.

Perhaps “Humans do not choose to be gay” but they choose to carry out a gay lifestyle. “Einstein did not choose to be a genius” but he chose into what he put his genius.

I’m going to note that I’m no longer interested in trading essays with you hereafter since you keep merely jumping to asserted conclusions and they all come back to the very same point. For example, “They simply can not because they know it’s not true” which has what, exactly, to do with Atheism? Nothing. “Know it. Not a belief” yeah, right! And just how do all Atheist “Know” that? See, you just need to deal with the fact that your worldview collapsed, it failed before it even began: that’s why you can’t actually argue but merely begin with conclusions.

Again (and again, and again) you merely jump to “you are deflecting. You like your strawman and rhetoric” without a premise and besides, I’ve studied the history and definitions (plural) or Atheism as well as Atheist denominations.

Interestingly, you attack others and complain about that “Religion” (paining with a broad brush broom, just as when you pretend to speak for all Atheists) is “used to attack others…” and when you speak for all Atheists you “create a tribe.”

It’s fascinating that since I’m dissecting your worldview and you don’t like it, you there are years of work ahead of me even though I’ve literally interacted with THOUSANDS of Atheists regularly for over a decade. So, put down your bag of Atheist talking points and deal with the issues that are inconvenient to your worldview.

Then we can get to discussing the one true God of the Bible who hasn’t been proven false.

Andrew Sutcliffe chimed in with

simple, its just one persons opinion, so why shouldn’t they?

Ken Ammi

One reason to care what Nietzsche said is that he predicted what resulted in Atheists—by any other name—set the world’s mass and serial murdering record in mere decades (even when competing against religions that had been around for millennia).

See chapter, “The Faulty Conclusion and the Deicidal and Misanthropic Prophecies” of my book “From Zeitgeist to Poltergeist: A Consideration of Richard Dawkins’ Polemics Regarding Christianity, Atheism, Communism, Nazism and Evolution.”

Andrew Sutcliffe

firstly, the difference is athiests didn’t kill because a deity with no proof of existing commanded them to, they did it usually for power and control, which by coincidence so did followers of Gods,but they were commanded to, can you find me anywhere that commands non believers to go out and rape torture and kill?.

Secondly, The Christian God drowned the entire planet according to the bible, and commanded the slaughter of 1000s in his name

Ken Ammi

Fortunately, those Atheists told us why they did what they did and it was motivated by their world-view.

You decided to refer to “a deity with no proof of existing” which merely supposed that proof is some sort of universal imperative on your world-view but how so?

Also, if you’re demanding proof then the first step is for you to justify your demand from your world-view.

And, on your world-view there’s nothing wrong with murdering (“kill” is the wrong term, ethically, to use within this context) for any reason including power and control nor with having “drowned the entire planet…commanded the slaughter of 1000s.”

Thus, your world-view is an open door to “go out and rape torture and” murder since: is it not?

Andrew Sutcliffe

And anybody can go out and rape torture and murder as much as they want,the good thing is,most people don’t want to do it,and it’s not because a God tells them.not to,it’s because they choose not to.

But again,show me where the likes of Hitler etc were commanded to kill by a God.

As for proof,there is none anywhere that any Gods are real,unless you have some to share?.

People kill for many reasons,bit not Manny do it because a God tells them to,again they do it for power,control,money or just out of anger

Ken Ammi

How do you know that “most people don’t want to” “rape torture and murder” “and it’s not because a God tells them.not to”?

But, indeed, on Atheism “anybody can go out and rape torture and murder as much as they want” but it’s nice that some “choose not to” but note that you subjectivized it: it’s a subjective personal preference of theirs (based on hidden assumptions) and there’s nothing wrong with rape torture and murder, on Atheism.

I’ve no idea what you’re talking about the likes of Hitler, etc. being “commanded to kill by a God.”

What I noted was, “Fortunately, those Atheists told us why they did what they did and it was motivated by their world-view.”

You may also recall that I noted, “if you’re demanding proof then the first step is for you to justify your demand from your world-view.”

Thus, you merely doubled down on demanding proof without a justification.

But note that you positively affirmed, “there is none anywhere” (which means you’re more militant than Bertrand Russell and Richard Dawkins, for two) so are you claiming to be omniscient?

Indeed, “People kill for many reasons…power,control,money or just out of anger” and the Atheists I noted did so due to their worldview allowing them to do.

Also, on Atheism they enjoyed their evil doing, their causing of pain and suffering, and they got away with it in the end since there’s no transcendent judgment. In fact, they just rid us of bothersome worthless eaters, the less fit.

This is part of how Atheism makes evil, pain, and suffering even worse.

Thus, evil, pain, and suffering are some of the best reasons for rejecting Atheism.

Andrew Sutcliffe

“This is part of how Atheism makes evil, pain, and suffering even worse.Thus, evil, pain, and suffering are some of the best reasons for rejecting Atheism.”

You mean unlike forcing your daughter to marry her rapist?, to command your followers to go out and kill all men and boys yet fetch back the virgin women for your slaves?, to own people and pass them down to your sons?, to have your unruly son stoned to death?, to ask a man to murder his own son just to test his faith?, to drown an entire planet including innocent children and babies just because they are not living by your terms and conditions?, To sacrifice your own son to remove the sin of humanity despite the fact that you created sin and could of forgiven us without doing that?, after all he is all powerful according to Christians.

The fact is the deaths are because their God commanded them to throughout history, you can try and justify it, but if you follow the biblical God with all he has done, then you have no right to question others morals. No matter how clever you try to dress it up.

Reading the bible is enough to make anybody athiest

Ken Ammi

I see you’re incapable of dealing with my statements about Atheism so you attempted to pull a tu quoque (not that there’s anything wrong with that on Atheism).

Before you ask all of those questions (much of which you clearly don’t understand: did you get that list from an Atheist talking point website or something?) what, on your worldview, is wrong with any of those things you listed? Please note that if you’ve no ability to absolutely condemn them, on your worldview, then they become non-issues and you don’t get to appeal to them (but that’s only if you subjectively chose to be consistent since consistency isn’t a universal imperative, on Atheism) since, “you have no right to question others morals.”

I can see how “Reading the bible is enough to make anybody athiest” since one of Atheism’s consoling delusions is the delusion of absolute autonomy and another is the delusion of lack of transcendent accountability—plus, Atheism is auto-theistic and Atheists say they shall have no gods besides themselves.

Andrew Sutcliffe

If you’re the sort of human who sees nothing wrong with theist I posted then there is something badly wrong with you and you need to seek medical help from a qualified mental health specialist

.you can try to make out you’re so intelligent and intellectual by using the phrases you are doing,but all it tells me is that you can waffle on,yet still say or prove absolutely f**k all.

You carry on thinking you’re so clever if it plays to your superiority complex,bit all the big words and phrases in the world won’t get away from the point that you’re a bit of an [*******] who appears to be ok with the stoning of kids,owning slaves and selling your daughter to her rapist,it clearly shows the sort of person you are,and it’s not a very nice one.

Still that sounds like a YOU problem.

Ken Ammi

I don’t know what you mean by “with theist I posted” but recall that on Atheism “human” is just a way of saying accidentally existing ape and so there’s no universal imperative, on Atheism, for an accidentally existing ape to be cogent.

But I see that since you’re tapped out, you decided to employ the Atheist 101 tactic of spewing personal insults and running away—how sad.

You again prove you don’t understand the issues you raise and also discredit yourself by angrily jumping to conclusions without a premise.

Please take it out on your worldview, not on me.

And that, as they say, was that.

See my various books here.

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Deane Galbraith’s contribution to Nephilim

That which follows is Deane Galbraith’s contribution to Nephilim published by De Gruyter, 2023.

Galbraith, LLB/BCom (Auckland), BTheol (Hons), PhD (Otago), is a lecturer in religion at the University of Otago in New Zealand and President of the Aotearoa-New Zealand Association for Biblical Studies.

We are told by Deane Galbraith that, “Num 13–14 presents the Canaanite Nephilim as autochthonous, elite warriors who dwelt in the land before the Israelites.” But we will find out that such is simply not the case—nor could it be.

We get an important point that pop-Nephilologists cannot handle due to their Gigorexia Nervosa (my term for people who are obsessed with seeing giants and just making them up where they are nowhere to be seen) which is, “Some interpreters have argued that the gigantic stature of the Nephilim demonstrates their angelic or divine parentage. Yet there is no clear indication in Gen 6:4 that the Nephilim are giants (Perlitt: 244 [Perlitt, L., “Riesen im Alten Testament: Ein literarisches Motiv im Wirkungsfeld des Deuteronomismus,” in id., Deuteronomium-Studien (FAT 8; Tübingen 1994) 205–46]). While mentioning their parents, their antiquity, and their fame as warriors, Gen 6:4 is conspicuously silent about their stature…”

While this is a very important point, it begs the key questions:

What’s the usage of the vague, generic, subjective, multi-usage and modern English word “giants” in English Bibles?

What’s Deane Galbraith’s usage of the vague, generic, subjective, multi-usage and modern English word “giants”?

Do those usages agree?

It is clear that Galbraith’s usage is something about subjectively unusual height but that is not in the least bit the English Bible’s usage wherein it renders (does not translate) Nephilim, in two verses, and Repha/im, in 98% of all other instances.

We will find out that we have no reliable physical description of Nephilim to it is misguided to argue in favor of the Angel view by arguing about, “the gigantic stature”—however it may be that Angelic or divine parentage would lead to subjectively unusual height.

Deane Galbraith noted that, “The conception of the Nephilim as giants is evident only in the reception of Gen 6:1–4, beginning with Num 13:33, 1 En. 6–16, and the translation γίγαντες in LXX Gen 6:4.”

Gen 6:1–4 is the only reliable biblical data we have.

Num 13:33 is one sentence from an unreliable evil report by unreliable guys whom God rebuked.

1 En. 6–16 is from a Bible contradicting text, 1 Enoch, from millennia after the Torah: it has Nephilim being 3,000 ells which is miles tall—for the specifics, see my book In Consideration of the Book(s) of Enoch.

The Greek term γίγαντες/gigantes in LXX means earth-born so implies nothing about height at all.

We are told, “Perlitt observes that the mythische sense of the Nephilim as giants is a development within exilic or postexilic literature, a motif which expands in later apocalypses and pseudepigraphical literature” indeed, such is late date folklore.

It is noted that, “The earliest known identification of the Nephilim as giants occurs in Num 13:33, where the Nephilim are identified with the ‘sons of Anak’ indigenous to Canaan, who are themselves associated with gigantic grape clusters and tall cities….ʿănāk likely derives from the Greek ἄναξ, usually denoting a legendary hero or king, and frequently described as possessing abnormal stature. Numbers 13:33 therefore transfers the giant stature of Ἄνακες to the Nephilim.”

Note the continued un-English-biblical misused of, “giants” regarding, “The earliest known identification of the Nephilim as giants” but since it comes to us from the evil report by unreliable guys whom God rebuked then it is irrelevant in seeking to determine anything actually factual about Nephilim.

Likewise, it is only there (there in non-LXX versions), “where the Nephilim are identified with the ‘sons of Anak’” so that again, that is not only irrelevant but is impossible.

I am uncertain what, “gigantic grape clusters and tall cities” have to do with it except that the land contained both: which, by the way, pop-Nephilologist have as not gigantic clusters but actually gigantic individual grapes—see chapter, “” of my book Nephilim and Giants: Believe It or Not!: Ancient and Neo-Theo-Sci-Fi Tall Tales.

Note the qualifying terms in that, “likely…usually” regarding subjectively, “abnormal stature” of some unknown level.

When we put the biblical data together, we would have to state, “Numbers 13:33” in non-LXX versions, “therefore transfers the” subjectively taller than 5.0-5.3 ft., “stature of Ἄνακες to the Nephilim” which is not worth its weight in Dead Sea salt anyhow, coming from an evil report.

I am unsure why the following statement was made in the manner in which it was, “Their depiction as demigods or angelic offspring is a still later development, commencing with 1 En. 6–16 and LXX Gen 6:4.” The specific reference to the LXX is mysterious to me.

This is followed by an incoherent category error, “The common sense of nĕpilîm, gibbōrîm, and ʿănākîm is of elite or royal warriors deriving especially from legendary antiquity; they can but do not necessarily possess abnormal stature or divine parentage.”

The issue is that “nĕpilîm, gibbōrîm, and ʿănākîm” are three wholly different categories.

“nĕpilîm”: unknown to have been of, “abnormal stature” but known to have been of strictly pre-flood, “divine parentage.”

“gibborim”: a mere descriptive term for might/mighty—thus, it is applied to Nephilim, Angels, some of David’s soldiers, Boaz, God, etc. ().

“ʿănākîm”: who were strictly a post-flood clan of the Rephaim tribe, only “possess[ing] abnormal stature” since they were taller than average, and not of, “divine parentage.”

Deane Galbraith asserted that, “Both Gen 6:4 and Num 13:33 include interpolations that attempt, in different ways, to harmonize the apparent death of the Nephilim in the flood with their postdiluvian appearance in Canaan. In Num 13:33, the Israelite spies claim that they had seen Nephilim in Canaan, before an interpolation, not included in LXX, qualifies that they had seen only the Nephilim’s descendants, the Anakim (cf. 13:22).”

That is a generic and scholarly-speak statement which fails to interact with the narrative of the latter verse.

Gen 6:4 does not even hint of an interpolation that attempt to harmonize post-flood Nephilim.

There is no, “postdiluvian appearance” of Nephilim in Canaan.

What we were told was a claim of, “the Israelite spies” was, again, the merely assertion within an evil report (which contained five mere assertions) of the ten unreliable ones whom God rebuked.

Moreover, “Likewise, Gen 6:4’s claim that ‘the Nephilim were on the earth in those days [i.e., before the flood],’ is followed by the phrase ‘and also after,’ which harmonizes the text with the purported existence of postdiluvian Nephilim in Num 13:33.”

Note that, “the flood” was artificially inserted into a text that does not refer to it—in fact, the flood is not even mentioned for the very first time until a full 13 vss. later, v. 17.

Verse 4 tells us exactly to what days it is referring but the quoter of it here dissected it just before the key data point. Only by Moreover, “Likewise, Gen 6:4’s claim that ‘the Nephilim were on the earth in those days [i.e., before the flood],’ is followed by artificially inserting the flood can that then be artificially appealed to in order to fallaciously conclude that it, “harmonizes the text with the purported existence of postdiluvian Nephilim in Num 13:33” which it would not have to do in any case since Num 13:33 is unreliable.

The verse reads, “Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them.”

Thus, “those days” were when the sons and daughters first married, mated, and birthed (with the commencing timeline being given in v. 1 as, “When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose”) and so, “afterward” meant just that: after they first did so (they kept doing so) yet, that is still all pre-flood.

Deane Galbraith wrote in an oddly typical manner whereby data is touched upon, moved away from, circled back to again, moved away from, touched upon again, etc.

Thus, at this point we are told, “When the Israelite spies describe the Nephilim in Num 13:32–33, the narrative explains that the spies are spreading an ‘evil rumor.’ The rumor, despite being motivated by the spies’ fear of the strength of the land’s inhabitants (13:31), is based on the essential truth of the extraordinary height of the Nephilim.”

Again, this was not about, “the Israelite spies” in general so we are still being misinformed. And an, “evil rumor” is not just about gossip, which might be true, thus, it is a fallacious conclusion to jump to the supposed, “essential truth of the extraordinary height of the Nephilim.”

Even seller of un-biblical tall-tales, Gary Wayne will admit (when pushed) that such is not necessarily an essential truth. After years of asserting Nephilim were “giants” (by which he means very, very, very tall) it just took me asking him one little question for him to admit he does not know how big they were—and then, he went on to say he will keep asserting they were “giants.” What sense does it make to refer to the height of someone who’s height you don’t know?

Watch it unfold during our debate.

Moreover, “For the spies’ description of themselves as grasshoppers by comparison with the Nephilim (Num 13:33) is broadly consistent with the narrator’s report that a cluster of grapes in Eshcol grew so large that it could only be carried between two Israelites (13:23–24) and with the report of the twelve spies that the Canaanite cities were ‘fortified exceedingly high’ (13:28).”

Again (and again), it was not, “the spies’” in general and, “the narrator’s report” was that they presented an evil report and were rebuked. But yes, a cluster of grapes was large: what of it? And yes the, “twelve spies” (we actually do not know who or how many were behind it but the attempted specificity is appreciated nevertheless) about, “fortified exceedingly high” calls for another what of it? Perhaps it is a case of the non sequitur that large things must have been built for and by large people.

Furthermore, “Two further references in LXX to the Nephilim, albeit not employing the term, occur in Bar 3:26–28 and Sir 16:7. Baruch 3:26–28 describes the ‘giants’ as famed experts in war who in their lack of wisdom did not follow God and so were destroyed by him. According to Sir 16:7, God ‘did not forgive the ancient giants, who revolted in their might.’ The words ‘ancient giants’ (γιγάντων τῶν ἀρχαίων) translate the Hebrew nsyky qdm (princes of old), and both Hebrew terms along with bgbwrtm (in their might) have strong resonances with Gen 6:4.”

Those apocryphal texts are not only not employing the term Nephilim but in employing γιγάντων/gigantos are employing earth-born and so still not telling us anything about their height—nor of post-flood Nephilim.

See my various books here.

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Epistemology in Charles Bronson’s 1977 The White Buffalo

Firstly, okay, why it gotta be “White” buffalo? That buffalo’s taking advantage of its White—buffalo—privilege, and stuff.

Well, alright, this article is not about that.

I found a particular portion of the 1977 Charles Bronson movie The White Buffalo rather telling—on two accounts, actually.

One is the caricature that Native Americans were basically hippies living in peace with nature and each other. Sure, “The earth does not belong to man, man belongs to the earth” is a great talking point when the White man wants your land—yet, how did it get to be your land?

The other is the issue of epistemology, vs. ontology, actually.

The scene in question—video clip below—features Crazy Horse, “Wild” Bill Hickok, and Charlie Zane.

Crazy Horse asks Hickok, “Longhair. Why are you whites in my country? We did not ask the whites to come here. The Great Spirits gave us these hills as a home. You say, why do not we become civilized? We do not want your civilization.”

Now, Hickok replies, “You’ve spoken Red truth” to which Horse replies, “Tell me then White truth, Longhair.”

This is interesting because they’re speaking about each other’s perspective: Crazy Horse is speaking Red truth and Bill Hickok White truth.

So now, to the White truth, “In the first place, the Great Spirit did not give you these hills. You took this land by force. You took it from the Cheyenne, the Shoshone and the Arapaho. You took it with the lance and tomahawk. And now the White man makes war on you. What’s the difference?”

Horse doesn’t dispute any of that (granted, we’re just hearing a script) but offers more Red truth, “The Whites have no honor. Where White man walks, death comes out of season.”

Hickok replies, “That’s a thing called progress” but Horse notes, “It’s a thing called greed.” Was it not greed when Crazy Horse, who in real life was of the Brule Sioux tribe, does not seem to think that when his tribe “took it from the Cheyenne, the Shoshone and the Arapaho…with the lance and tomahawk” so, what was it?

In any case, he asks Bill Hickok, “Tell me this. Am I evil because my skin is red? Is it a wicked thing that I was born where my father was born? Is it a bad thing that I would die for my people?”

Hickok replies, “It’s still Red truth and not real truth.” With this, we go from subjective epistemology—Red vs. White truths—and come to ontology: the “real truth” beyond particular perspectives.

Horse replies, “Tell me this true truth, then” and Zane chimes in with, “Give Red John the word! Tell the little rooster he’s extinct!”

Hickok replies, beginning with another of Crazy Horse’s nicknames, “Worm. When Sitting Bull was a boy, the Sioux could throw 10,000 warriors into battle. Today it’s the White man’s turn. Those that you have seen on these hills and on the plains are like a handful of beads. There are many! They are more than the blades of spring grass, more than the buffalo when they smothered the Earth in their great herds. There’s no way to stand against the White man! Their weapons are terrible! They have the power! You will bend to the long knives or be broken. You will live as they say, or die on their bayonets.”

Horse recognizes that such as the brute facts of the reality on the ground and notes, “That was straight tongue, Captain. If such is the true truth, then I will sing my death song.”

Hickok notes, “No. I’ll not have your death.”

Horse says, “Why not? You are White.”

Bill Hickok reassuringly replies, “First, I am your brother and your friend.”

And so, Crazy Horse states, “Longhair. Between us there shall be no war.”

It’s a very interesting and emotive scene all around and shows us, beyond other issues that there’s subjective perspective but there’s ultimately the actual, absolute truth of the matter: however challenging it may be to get at it.

Be sure to see my books.

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A plea: I have to pay for server usage and have made all content on this website free and always will. I support my family on one income and do research, writing, videos, etc. as a hobby. If you can even spare $1.00 as a donation, please do so: it may not seem like much but if each person reading this would do so, even every now and then, it would add up and really, really help out. Here is my donate/paypal page.

Due to robo-spaming, I had to close the comment sections. However, you can comment on my Twitter page, on my Facebook page, or any of my other social network sites all which are available here.

Paul Fahy Nephilim, Anunnaki and other tall stories

Undergoing review is Paul Fahy’s article Nephilim, Anunnaki and other tall stories. The only things I know about his are what’s on his site’s About page, “has exercised a teaching ministry in various churches since 1971…served as a pastor-teacher in a house church in Brighton [England]…”

I’m empathetic about what he states at the outset which is, “Wacky ideas about a race of angelic/alien/human giants are everywhere these days. There are hordes of books, films, YouTube videos, conferences, ministries and speakers on this matter. There are multiple conferences given over solely to this topic. There are ‘Christian’ ministries that exist only to speak about Nephilim. People will tell you that this is the key to understanding the past and the future.”

Most of what he notes is that which I term un-biblical-neo-theo-sci-fi-tall-tales.

I’ve written whole books debunking them such as, Nephilim and Giants: Believe It or Not!: Ancient and Neo-Theo-Sci-Fi Tall Tales and also, Nephilim and Giants as per Pop-Researchers: A Comprehensive Consideration of the claims of I.D.E. Thomas, Chuck Missler, Dante Fortson, Derek Gilbert, Brian Godawa, Patrick Heron, Thomas Horn, Ken Johnson, L.A. Marzulli, Josh Peck, CK Quarterman, Steve Quayle, Rob Skiba, Gary Wayne, Jim Wilhelmsen, et al.

He also rightly notes that, “One key to realising that there is something fishy about all this is the reliance upon non-Biblical sources. Supporters of this will refer to apocryphal books mentioned by Biblical authors, such as the Book of Enoch and the Book of Jasher. Others will refer to mythological sources, such as Mayan documents or Sumerian legends. Some people have even produced books that contain Biblical texts, apocryphal texts and secular myths side by side in parallel.”

I wrote an entire book just about that, The Apocryphal Nephilim and Giants.

Reviewing, “Common sources used for information on the Nephilim” he notes, “The Book of Enoch,” 1 Enoch, Bible contradicting folklore from millennia after the Torah, see the book, In Consideration of the Book(s) of Enoch.

Also, “The Book of Jasher” which is just a modern day hoaxed fraud. Fahy notes, “there are at least five books that have this title and they were all composed much later than Biblical times. One commonly used is a Hebrew book printed in 1613…An earlier edition (1552)…This was later accepted by Joseph Smith of the Latter Day Saints (Mormons)…Another one was published in 1750…a revised edition of this was published in Bristol and then again in 1934 by the Rosicrucians.”

Then, “Philo of Alexandria was a Greek / Jewish philosopher living between about 25BC and 50 AD. He sought to harmonise Greek and Jewish philosophy and heavily utilised allegory.”

Next is the, “Targum of Jonathan” which, “supports the idea of angelic intermarriage with humans and mentions them by name, calling them Schanchazai and Uziel, who fell from heaven, and were in the earth in those days. This is just Jewish mythology.” Well, that one Targum is very late dated, the 600s AD, and it’s a paraphrase, not a translation, and is pepper with folklore.”

Also, The Dead Sea Scrolls, which range widely in genre.

And, Flavius Josephus (37-100 AD).

Also, “The Apocrypha: Judith, Sirach, Baruch and the Wisdom of Solomon etc.” which date from the 1st century to the early 2nd century BC.

I dealt with virtually all of these in my book The Apocryphal Nephilim and Giants.

Paul Fahy then references, “Early church fathers” such as, “Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Cyprian, Ambrose and Lactantius” with whom I deal in my book On the Genesis 6 Affair’s Sons of God: Angels or Not?: A Survey of Early Jewish and Christian Commentaries Including Notes on Giants and the Nephilim.

He then provides, “The list of ‘giant’ races involved: Biblical” (sic.) but he hasn’t answered what are three key questions:

What’s the usage of the vague, generic, subjective, multi-usage and modern English word “giants” in English Bibles?

What’s his usage of the vague, generic, subjective, multi-usage and modern English word “giants”?

Do those usages agree?

Thus, we will have to attempt to discern to what he’s referring with any given usage.

First up are Nephilim who are mentioned in Gen 6:4 (reliably) and Num 13:33 (unreliably).

He elucidates, “‘Giants’ = Nephilim” which goes back to question begging since, at least for now, that reads as, “‘____’ = Nephilim.”

He further notes, “The root meaning of ‘Nephilim’ is either ‘violent’ (i.e. falling upon one’s enemy) or ‘causing to fall.’”

He also notes, “The LXX translates this with ‘gigantes’, which actually means ‘earth-born’ not giant.” That’s technically not a translation but is a rendering (but be aware that the LXX also rendered gibborim and Repha/im as such: so in the LXX gigantes only refers to Nephilim in two verses).

Again, telling us, “‘gigantes’, which actually means ‘earth-born’ not giant” is telling us, “‘gigantes’, which actually means ‘earth-born’ not _____.”

He notes that, “English translators…used the Greek term, abbreviated to ‘giant’” (although that’s not an abbreviation) and conclude, “Thus the distinction in Gen 6:4 is between ‘earth-born’ sinners and godly ‘sons of God’. The whole concept of the Nephilim being giants is based on a mistranslation of a translation from Hebrew to Greek.”

At this point, I will just guess that by giants he’s implying something about subjectively unusual height which is not the English Bible’s usage: as he had literally just finished telling us.

He notes, “There is confusion as to whether the Nephilim are the sons of God or the offspring” but the contextual narrative of the Genesis 6 affair, as I term it, is the sons of God and daughters of men: their attraction, their marriages, and their offspring. Thus, “the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose…Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward” clearly as a result of, “when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them.”

Paul Fahy then notes, “There is no Biblical indication that these were giants” and based on his leaving it to us to guess that he’s implying something about subjectively unusual height: he’s correct.

Next on the list are Anakim about whom he quotes Num 13:33, “There we saw the giants [Nephilim] (the descendants of Anak came from the giants [Nephilim]); and we were like grasshoppers in our own sight, and so we were in their sight” as well as Deut 2:19-21, “a people as great and numerous and tall [‘high’, ‘lofty’ [these brackets by Fahy]] as the Anakim. But the LORD destroyed them before them, and they dispossessed them and dwelt in their place.”

Paul Fahy comments that Anakim were a, “race of giants descended from Arba (Jos 14:15), the father of Anak, that dwelt in the south of Palestine near Hebron (Gen 23:2; Jos 15:13). They were a Cushite tribe of the same race as the Philistines and the Egyptian shepherd kings. David encountered them on several occasions (2 Sam 21:15-22); including facing Goliath (1 Sam 17:4)” and that’s all.

He didn’t inform his readers that Num 13:33 is one sentence form an evil report stated by unreliable guys whom God rebuked: they just made up a tall-tale.

Any concept of post-flood Nephilim implies that God failed: He meant to be rid of them via the flood but couldn’t get the job done, He must have missed a loophole, the flood was much of a waste, etc. Also, post-flood Nephilologists will have to just invent an un-biblical tall-tale about how they made it past the flood.

Note also that reference to Anakim is lacking form the LXX version. Now, Fahy rightly elucidated the little we know about their genealogy and one thing that is not therein is any connection to Nephilim whatsoever.

As for a, “race of giants” as per Fahy’s misusage, indeed, we’re just told that they were, “tall” which is just as vague, generic, subjective, and multi-usage as giants. Contextually, it means that they were taller than the average Israelite male who was 5.0-5.3 ft. in those days—and the preponderance of the earliest data is that Goliath was just shy of 7 ft.

Next up are the Rephaim about whom I will succinctly relate what Fahy told us: the land of, “the people of Ammon…was also regarded as a land of giants; giants formerly dwelt there. But the Ammonites call them Zamzummim, a people as great and numerous and tall as the Anakim…(Deut 2:19-21).

Here giants renders Rephaim, we learn that an a.k.a. for them was Zamzummim, and they were generally taller than 5.0-5.3 ft.

Moreover, “Og king of Bashan…his bedstead was an iron bedstead…Nine cubits is its length…Deut 3:11…Gilead, and all Bashan, the kingdom of Og…Argob, with all Bashan, was called the land of the giants. Deut 3:13…Og king of Bashan and his territory, who was of the remnant of the giants…Jos 12:4…Og in Bashan…remained of the remnant of the giants…Jos 13:12.”

Again, giants is rendering Rephaim, not implying anything about height whatsoever. As for Og in particular, see my book The King, Og of Bashan, is Dead: The Man, the Myth, the Legend—of a Nephilim Giant?

Also, “the land of the Perizzites and the giants…Jos 17:15” referring to the land of Rephaim.

And, “The dead [rapha [brackets by Fahy]] tremble, those under the waters and those inhabiting them. Job 26:5” which is a case of applying the root word rapha to the Rephaim people group.

Plus, “Ishbi-Benob…one of the sons of the giant…2 Sam 21:16…Saph, who was one of the sons of the giant. 2 Sam 21:18…a man of great stature, who had six fingers on each hand and six toes on each foot, twenty-four in number; and he also was born to the giant. 2 Sam 21:20. These four were born to the giant in Gath…2 Sam 21:22…Sippai, who was one of the sons of the giant…1 Chron 20:4…a man of great size, who had six fingers on each hand, and six toes on each foot, twenty-four in number; he also was descended from the giants. 1 Chron 20:6…born to the giant in Gath…1 Chron 20:8.”

Some of that are reiterations, all of which are references to Rephaim, with, “great stature” being just as vague, generic, subjective, and multi-usage as tall and giants and, by the way, we find out that one single Repha had extra digits (pop-Nephilologists assert that such is a Nephilim trait but there’s zero indication of that, see chapter, “” in my book Nephilim and Giants As Per Pop-Researchers).

Further, there are more usages of the root word rapha in Ps 88:10, Prov 2:18, Prov 9:18, Prov 21:16, Isa 14:9, Isa 26:14.

Recall that he had asserted, “‘Giants’ = Nephilim”? Well, he now tells us, “‘Giants’ = rapha; i.e. the Rephaim…A race of giants.” So, he thinks that two very different words both refer to subjectively unusual height but neither do: even though Rephaim were generally subjectively unusually tall.

He notes, “Anakim, Zuzim, and Emim were branches of this stock” but it’s more like that Anakim were a clan of the Rephaim tribe and Zuzim and Emim are other a.k.a. for Rephaim.

He goes on to note that, “In Job 16:14, in the KJV, ‘giant’ appears but this is a wrong translation. The word is gibbor meaning ‘a mighty one’, i.e. a champion or hero. In its plural form (gibborim) it is rendered ‘mighty men’ (2 Sam 23:8-39; 1 Kg 1:8; 1 Chron 11:9-47, 29:24).”

Indeed, it’s just a descriptive term for might/mighty which is why it’s used of Angels, Nephilim, some of David’s soldiers, Boaz, God, etc.

Pop-Nephilologists actually assert that there was a Gibborim people group but that’s as misguided as the rest of their un-biblical assertions.

At this point, he writes a, “Conclusion” which includes, “Not all the words translated as ‘giant’ by the KJV refer to giants” but given his usage, only Rephaim fits and that’s only because they were taller than 5.0-5.3 ft.

Thus, when he concludes, “Giants were: some of the house of Anak (the Anakim) and some of the Rephaim (including the Zamzummins and Emim)” that’s only as far as we can take it.

Mover, “Not all the Hebrew words that can refer to giants (such as rapha) are actually referring to a

giant” but rapha ranges in meaning from healing to dead and never subjectively unusually tall—see the, “Rephaim” chapter of my book What Does the Bible Say About Giants and Nephilim? A Styled Giantology and Nephilology.

He then moves to, “The idea of angels mating with humans” and claims that Gen 6:4, “is the only verse that can be used to support this mad idea” which he all but bypasses by directing us to his Paper Can demons mate with humans?

Note that he moved the goalpost from, “angels mating with humans” to, “demons mate with humans.” Angles are physical and are thus able to physically copulate but demons are spirits and cannot, see my article, Demons Ex Machina: What are Demons?

His argument is, “the word ‘angels’ does not appear in this verse at all; the reference is to the ‘sons of Elohim’. If Moses had wanted to specifically refer to angels he would have used the appropriate term (mal’ak). Can ‘sons of God ‘refer to angels? Yes, but rarely (Job 1:6, 2:1). Job 38:7 does not have to refer to angels at all being a poetic reference to the stars.”

It’s simply not the case that Gen 6:4 is the only verse that can be used to support the Angel view.

It’s not Fahy’s place to dictate that which Moses would and would not do: there’s no linguistic standard that one thing can only be referred to in one way—no language works like that.

At least he admits that sons of God can refer to Angels and Job 38:7, as one example, shows us that sons of God can refer to non-human beings (which the LXX has as “angelos”).

Jude and 2 Peter 2 combined place the one-time sin of Angels to pre-flood days and correlate it to sexual sin.

Yet, having admitted as much, he myopically asserts, “‘Sons of God’ are God’s children i.e. humans in Matt 5:9, Lk 20:36, Rm 8:14, 19, Gal 3:26” but that’s one usage.

Yet, for Paul Fahy, it’s about statistics, “the predominant reference is to human beings not angels” which is not the way to do Angelology nor linguistics.

He also notes, “No Biblical writer outside of Job…refers to angels as ‘sons of God’” but that’s not the case since Gen 6:4 employs bene haElohim and/but Psalm 82 has ben Elim, etc.

He further argues, “Note also that the judgment of God resulting from this behaviour fell upon men and not angels (Gen 6:6)” yet, 1) Angels are generally referred to as man/men (as are Nephilim) and 2) the Bible’s main context is humanity so to whatever it refers, it always and quickly returns it’s focus to us.

He also argues, “Note also that angels are not mentioned in the Genesis narrative before this point” but why would it? Again, see point 2) that I just made plus, they were out of the picture at that point since, again, as per Jude and 2 Peter 2, they were incarcerated.

As for, “The angelic state,” Paul Fahy asserts, “Angles are spirit beings; that is they are not material at all. As immaterial beings it is impossible for them to be able to mate with a human.” Yet, his premise is faulty since that Angels are spirits may be tradition, may be common knowledge, but it’s not biblical.

Moreover, “Although angels sometimes appeared on earth to men in an apparent physical human form, they did not change their actual composition but only their appearance.” This is just made up stuff. See, he continued by noting, “In Genesis 18 the Lord appears with two men, whom we can presume to be angels” we don’t have to presume since Gen 19 very clearly identified then as such, “Abraham arranges for food to be prepared for these men. They give the appearance of eating, but this was a miraculous and unusual appearance by God; it does not mean that the angelic bodies were physically human.”

He made an argument from silence and then misdirected us at the end of it.

You see, he reads about, “angels…appeared on earth to men in an…physical human form” which is what text such as Gen 18 tell us yet, he inserts, “apparent” therein due to his eisegesis.

He reads about, “men,” who were Angels, eating food but inserts that it’s, “only their appearance” and not their true form and that it was merle, “the appearance of eating.”

Well, no one is claiming that, “angelic bodies were physically human” but that biblical Angelology is that Angels look just like human males ontologically and there’s no indication whatsoever that such isn’t their true, natural, ontological form nor that they change, shape-shift, temporarily take on bodies, etc.

For some reason, he seeks to buttress his faulty premise and conclusion by noting, “The wonder of the incarnation of Jesus Christ is that this was the first and only time a heavenly Person became an actual human being” but, again, no one claims Angels because, “an actual human being.”

He then writes of, “immaterial angels/demons” which is erroneous and a category error.

He then has a section on, “Demons” which begins thusly, “The Nephilim angered God by their doings and cannot be elect angels that never sinned.” Yet, Nephilim aren’t Angels at all: they were the offspring of Angels. Yet, he said that, “if these were angels then they had to be demons” which is a techinal category error.

He (admits and yet) denies that sons of God in Gen 6:4 are Angels but thinks that Nephilim are Angels so he must read Gen 6:4 as, “When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them, God’s children i.e. humans saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose…The demons were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when God’s children i.e. humans in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown.”

Since he mashes the words and concepts, “angels/demons” he ends up mashing together things that are exclusively about Angels and things that are exclusively about demons. For example, “Fallen angels (demons) were cast out of heaven when they chose to rebel against God and support the satanic insurrection (2 Pt 2:4-5). They were imprisoned in the aerial regions around the earth (thus Satan is the, ‘prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience’; Eph 2:2).”

2 Pt 2:4-5 is about the Angels’ pre-flood sin and incarceration but Eph 2:2 is about demons.

He rightly notes that which I noted above, “Demons cannot take on genuine corporeal form; they are spirits” but that’s not relevant to Angels proper.

Again, he rightly notes, “A spirit being has no DNA and could not reproduce of its kind in a hybrid fashion” but that’s not relevant to Angels proper.

But this does, or may, apply to Angles, “God has set laws in creation so that different physical kinds cannot reproduce chimeras.” Yet, since Angels look just like human males, we were created, “a little lower” (Psalm 8:5) than they, and we can produce offspring then, by definition, we’re of the same basic kind.

Paul Fahy then notes, “The long held historic interpretation of this sentence is as follows: The sons of God are the children of Seth, the line of godly people that had originally kept a pure, godly racial line. At some point they intermarried with the line of Cain and the result was corruption of godliness.”

Well, it may be, “long held” from our perspective of looking way back in time but the fact is that the Sethite view is a latecomer. The original, traditional, and majority view among the earliest Jewish and Christians commentators, starting in BC days, was the “Angel view” as I proved in my book, On the Genesis 6 Affair’s Sons of God: Angels or Not?: A Survey of Early Jewish and Christian Commentaries Including Notes on Giants and the Nephilim.

The Sethite view is also based on mythology. There’s no indication of any such a thing as a, “line of godly people that had originally kept a pure, godly racial line” nor of any such thing as a, “corruption of godliness.” That view only creates more problems than it solves (more than zero).

Why was it only exclusively males on one side of the equation and only exclusively females on the other?

The, “line of godly people that had originally kept a pure, godly racial line” weren’t so godly, pure after all since they sinned to terribly that their sin served as the premise for the flood—and there’s no indication that there were any, “racial line” that was not meant to be crossed: they were all from Adam and Eve—which is why the only race is the human race.

Paul Fahy notes, “This view goes back to Augustine, earlier fathers and even beyond to Jewish rabbis” but it was a minority view among, “Jewish rabbis” (as oppose to whom, Gentile rabbis???) and there may be a psychological reason why Augustine broke with the traditional view: he converted to Christianity from Gnostic Manichaeism and sought to leave it wholly behind. Thus, since Mani held to the Angel view, Augustine would not.

Here again, he misrepresents the view in order to attempt to strengthen his arguments against it in (mis)stating, “Throughout church history the idea of demons mating with humans has been denied by all sound scholars, and even by many unorthodox scholars” which they rightly should yet, again, that’s a category error by Fahy.

He also notes that, “The sources that drive the modern notion of demons mating with humans to produce a super race stems almost wholly from unbiblical writers. These propose a range of nonsensical things. For example, the Book of Jubilees proposes that although the flood rid the earth of Nephilim, God allowed 10% of the disembodied spirits of the Nephilim to remain after the flood as demons to lead the human race astray. This is just fanciful rubbish.”

Yet, Jubilees has it that it was Angels, as does 1 Enoch (having Angles as Watchers) so as unreliable as those folkloric text from millennia after the Torah are, at least they don’t even have demons mating with humans—see my book, The Apocryphal Nephilim and Giants.

Paul Fahy then deals with Jude 1:6-7 and notes that, “the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh” really means, “a simple reference to the rebellion in heaven when some angels disobeyed God and were cast out” yet, Jude told us of what their rebellion consisted but Fahy merely sidesteps factoid.

Except, that is, that he notes, “Sodom and Gomorrah are given in Scripture as the classic case of judgment on sinners for iniquity involving heavenly fire and are thus a picture of hell” whilst still sidestepping that bit about, “given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh.”

He then asserts, “Christ asserted that angels cannot marry (Matt 22:30; Mk 12:25; cf. Lk 20:34-35); distinctly implying that it is impossible for angels to have sex because they had no gender.”

Yet, that’s simply note the case, note Jesus’ own words, meaning, implication, specificity, emphasis, context, etc.:

Matt 22:30, “30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.”

Mk 12:25, “For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.”

Lk 20:34-35, “And Jesus said to them, ‘The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage, but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and to the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage.’”

From that, Fahy got, “cannot marry…impossible for angels to have sex because they had no gender.”

Yet, this was specifically about that, “angels in heaven…angels in heaven” thus, the loyal ones who don’t marry nor are given in marriage. That’s why those who did are considered sinners, having, “left their first estate” as we saw that Jude noted.

And it’s too bad that Fahy stopped quoting Lk 20 at v. 35 since 36 notes, “for they cannot die anymore, because they are equal to angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection” so that to be, “sons of God” is to be, “equal to angels” who ergo, must be, “sons of God.”

Yet, Paul Fahy continued by emphasizing his unfounded assertion, “could not have sex.”

His conclusion of that section is, “The concept of demons mating with humans is not only impossible to achieve, it is laughable” and it’s equally laughable that he continues committing category errors.

When he continues by noting, “There is no clear Biblical text which teaches this idea” he’s up against no one who has ever claimed that there is.

He then claims that such is, “a repeated concept in pagan mythology…(Greek mythology) is filled with stories of gods mating with humans and the peril that ensues” but he has moved from Angels to demons to gods—and I would grant that the gods of such tales are either make-believe or where fallen Angels.

He follows that with a section asking, “Have there ever been giants on earth?” his reply to which is, “Yes there have; the Bible mentions this openly.”

Since he’s misunderstanding, misinterpreting, misreading, misdefining, and misapplying giants he refers to, “gigantism” and notes that, “The Bible mentions giants apart from the Nephilim” but he hasn’t established that Nephilim were subjectively unusually tall—well, not besides quoting one single sentence from an evil report by unreliable guys whom God rebuked.

But since he didn’t interact with the narrative of Num 13, he generically wrote, “The Israelite spies mention giants amongst the Canaanites” but it was not, “The,” twelve, “Israelite spies” but the ten unreliable ones.

He wrote, “Goliath was a giant…Goliath’s height was, ‘six cubits and a span’…117 inches or

9¾ feet tall.” Yet, that’s myopic since That’s as per the Masoretic but the earlier LXX and the earlier Dead Sea Scrolls and the earlier Flavius Josephus all have him at four cubits and a span, just shy of 7 ft.

Yet, after having written many pages about giants, Paul Fahy finally give us some idea of to what he’s referring, “We still have giants of a sort with us; some people have grown to seven-foot high” so there we have it: to him the vague, generic, subjective, multi-usage and modern English word giants refers to, “grown to” meaning not beyond in general 7 ft.

At this point, he loops back to Og and that his, “bed is stated in the Bible to have been 9 cubits long; that is 162 inches or 13 feet 5 inches. Of course we cannot say with certainty that Og was over 12 foot tall; many royal people have beds much larger than themselves; nevertheless Og was a giant and may have been 12 foot tall.” In short, we’ve no physical description of Og (not until folklore from millennia after the Torah) and that we can derive his height based on his, “bed” is based on numerous assumption—as I elucidate in my book about him.

He then notes, “Goliath was far removed from pre-flood times when the gene pool had already degenerated somewhat” but the only gene pool in which Goliath was swimming was Noah’s, of course.

He then comments on, “Some of the writers on the Nephilim” about whom I will mostly agree with him since I make it a habit of debunking such personages who make a living by selling un-biblical-neo-theo-sci-fi-tall-tales.

One very important point is that such tall-tale-tellers, “posit that…the command of God to wipe out the Canaanites was due to the strain of rogue DNA in the populations” yet, “The Biblical reason

for the destruction of the Canaanites was that they were condemned for their sin (and

especially their idolatry)” which is something I’ve pointed out to such pop-Nephilologists dozens upon dozens upon dozens of times and actually wrote an entire chapter just about that in my book What Does the Bible Say About Giants and Nephilim? A Styled Giantology and Nephilology.

Speaking of sci-fi-tall-tales, Paul Fahy notes, “Another strand of Nephilim teaching is based upon the claim that Nimrod is the Antichrist…Others claim (wrongly…) that Nimrod is also Gilgamesh (supposedly a giant) and that the body of Gilgamesh was discovered and captured by American troops in the occupation of Iraq…Multiple writers aver that the Antichrist will be the resurrected Nimrod, who is a Nephilim creature…”

He reviews some claims that are not even worth delving in to for my purposes, “Many proponents of the Nephilim teaching claim that the Nephilim are actually alien…One aspect of the alien /god theory is that Satan sent 200 of his fallen angels to be Watchers / rulers on the earth. This comes straight from secular mythology…The identification of the Anunnaki with the unobserved planet Nibiru leads to multiple speculations about future cosmic events when Nibiru comes into plain view and heralds

the end of the world (supposedly soon). This planet has never been identified by astronomers…Another strand of Nephilim teaching is the connection between the Nephilim (in the form of the Watchers) and the global elite,” etc., and so we will leave it at that.

See my various books here.

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