Atheist says I am not “as clever as [Richard] Carrier BA,MA,MPhil,PhD”

The following discussion took place due to my video Jesus Never Existed? Ken Humphreys vs. Nick Peters debate.

For some Atheist related info, see my books (on which I am offering a money saving deal:
The Apocryphal Jesus
On Jesus Mythicists’ Mythicism Myth
Jesus: Historical, Biblical, Apocryphal, Mythical Pagan Copycat


The following discussion took place due to my video Jesus Never Existed? Ken Humphreys vs. Nick Peters debate.

For some Atheist related info, see my books (on which I am offering a money saving deal:
The Apocryphal Jesus
On Jesus Mythicists’ Mythicism Myth
Jesus: Historical, Biblical, Apocryphal, Mythical Pagan Copycat

Colin Dowson commented
Richard Carrier has never said Christ 100% never existed that the actual evidence is too weak to state he did…read his evidence! Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence and we simply don’t have it to start God exists unless one used semantics and metaphysical Apologetics!!

I, Ken Ammi, replied
Friend, I am unsure to whom you are replying regarding Carrier’s claims. In any case, extraordinary claims only demand adequate evidence. Since there is no metric of extraordinariness, that is just a game of subjective preferences.
I am not sure what you mean by “…we simply don’t have it to start God exists…” but I have personally chronicled over 100 references to Jesus within the first two centuries alone. But, if you are asserting that we do not have evidence for God then please define what would count as evidence.

Colin Dowson
Our best evidence is Mathematical and Scientific methods!
Historical methods were very poor, 50 years let alone 2000 years!
If God exists,he should be able to be detected by Science,no such evidence exists..
Carrier uses modern historical methods,unknown by Theologians who claim he is wrong!!
Metaphysical Apologetics and Semantics are not evidence but Faith!!
The 100 + references you claim to know have been examined by Carrier and found wanting in terms of the sources!
Reading claims of this and that person or events,is meaningless unless it has extra corroboration especially if the events are beyond science or reason as Christianity and Religions are!!

Ken Ammi
Friend, I am unsure why you are serving up undercooked red herring but so be it. You are imposing your theology on me by telling me what God is like in your estimation. Now, on my estimation the on biblical theology based scientific method is a tool that was designed for a certain job: it helps us explore the material realm. However, God has traditionally been conceived of as immaterial. Thus, you are making a category error much like if you demanded to see cells via a telescope or planets via a microscope: wrong tool for the wrong job.
Now, what scientists can do it to detect God’s byproducts much like we cannot see subatomic particles but can detect their byproducts.
Carrier uses modern historical methods and his conclusions are disagreed upon by just about every other qualified historian: there is a reason why he is unemployed (perhaps many reasons, actually).

FYI: “Faith” is coming to a conclusion based on prior knowledge, see: https://truefreethinker.com/articles/what-%E2%80%9Cfaith%E2%80%9D

So, first “Historical methods were very poor” but then what Carrier says is dogma. Well, Carrier has not and cannot deny the 100 + references exist: he can only say that they do not seal his subjective deal—as they do for every other qualified historian. And recall that “Carrier has never said Christ 100% never existed.”

So, those “claims of this and that person or events” are the “extra corroboration” to the New Testament but now you are subjectively demanding that those extra corroborations have extra corroborations of their own? Seems as if you are setting up an infinite regression—and an infinite digression.

How does your worldview provide you a premise for even holding others to standards of truth, ethics, logic or for you to condemn anything?

Colin Dowson
“Most Ancient Historians agree with me…Ive checked every source over decades…I read the Bible in 2 days at Columbia! I’ve found every Theist lying or fabricating evidence that doesnt exist! Theists are self deluded people …who don’t know the Bible was forged… People who bash me,are not as educated or as rigorous I’m in analysing evidence and what is most likely! Einstein and Bertrand Russell agreed with me… My evidence has been peer reviewed by leading Experts before publication… Theists only give metaphysical Apologetics and semantic nonsense as evidence…all untestable and unreasonable” Dr Richard Carrier BA,MA,MPhil,PhD

Ken Ammi
You previously noted “Carrier has never said Christ 100% never existed” now you point out that “Most Ancient Historians agree with” him. Indeed!!!
You then quote him as referring to sources and him claiming that “every Theist lying or fabricating evidence that doesnt exist!” but we know that the sources do exist so he is simply in error at this point.
I for one, did not offer “metaphysical Apologetics and semantic nonsense as evidence” but chronicles centuries worth of such sources.
How does your and Carrier’s worldview provide you a premise for even holding others to standards of truth, ethics, logic or for you to condemn anything?

Colin Dowson
When you are as clever as Carrier BA,MA,MPhil,PhD,who read the Bible in 2 days at Columbia,then you can challenge him:
“I can show all Theists lie and fabricate evidence with metaphysical Apologetics and semantic nonsense not actual facts but indefeasible rubbish”
Carrier!
Only Apologists think he is wrong…not 90-99% of secular Ancient Historians,Scientists and Philosophers,read:
I suggest you stop believing in untestable Gods and attempt to refute yourself as a good and honest Thinker would!
Atheism: A Very Short Introduction (Very Short Introductions) https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0192804243/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_0Z0yBb95FF054
KEN HUMPHREYS: ON JESUS: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLxle3WF_KAEnRFn0q9CXlYNsMLvbgLOJf

Ken Ammi
I discern some hero worship as you appear to consider “clever…Carrier BA,MA,MPhil,PhD” infallible. Ask yourself why he is the only qualified scholar who holds his views and why he is unemployed.
His quotations is a mere assertion, why did you not include the portion wherein he goes from the merely claim that “I can show all Theists lie and fabricate evidence…” to where he actually shows it?
Only Atheists think he is right…not 90-99% of secular ancient historians, scientists and philosophers.
I suggest you stop believing in your untestable worldview. I have attempted to refute myself and the result is three books on historical Jesus issues, read my “Apocryphal Jesus,” and “On Jesus Mythicists’ Mythicism Myth” and “Jesus: Historical, Biblical, Apocryphal, Mythical Pagan Copycat.”
How does your and Carrier’s worldview provide you a premise for even holding others to standards of truth, ethics, logic or for you to condemn anything?

Colin Dowson
Might I remind people,being in the minority,doesnt make one wrong .. Einstein was thought to be potty: “God doesn’t exist,he can’t act or contact anyone,so those Fools who think he creates,acts or responds,are just self deluded and indoctrinated people who are not interested in reality or facts: Dr Richard Carrier,BA,MA,MPhil,PhD
Ken,my world view doesnt exclude anything!
Only that we have no credible evidence for Zeus or any Gods…
Pagans also claim they know God who heals…
All those Theists who mock Richard have never read his Books so dont know what they are talking about!.

Ken Ammi
Might I remind people, being in the minority, does not necessarily make one wrong but sometimes does.
So, now that Dr. Richard Carrier, BA, MA, MPhil, PhD has positively asserted that “God doesn’t exist” he needs to prove it.
Worse of all, if his worldview is true then it utterly does not matter if people are self-deluded.
Now, your “world view doesnt exclude anything!” uhm, except that you exclude “credible evidence” for God. Now, what do you consider to be “credible evidence”?
How does your and Carrier’s worldview provide you a premise for even holding others to standards of truth, ethics, logic or for you to condemn anything?

Colin Dowson
Carrier is one of the best Scholars because he will not only challenge Theists but also Atheists if there evidence is poor!! He also uses modern historical methods unused or unknown by earlier Scholars!! So he shows what is most rational and likely…God is neither rational,logical,valid or a likely explanation for reality

Cover - Jesus Historical, Biblical, Apocryphal, Mythical Pagan Copycat.jpg

Ken Ammi
You cannot simply begin with the conclusion that “God is neither rational,logical,valid or a likely explanation for reality” but must first provide your worldview’s premise for adhering to truth, logic and ethics. If not, then you are merely making assertions.

Colin Dowson
Ken Ammi Because Carrier is one of the worlds most brilliant Historians …he looks at evidence not Apologetics…to see what is most likely,moreover,Paul didnt write all his Epistles,the ones he did,show not not a earthly Jesus .. Stop insulting this man unless you speak Latin,Aramaic,Greek,Latin and Hebrew,then check the sources as he has!. The Bible wasn’t constructed for 300 years ..so plenty of time for lies and myth making! Finally,Carrier doesn’t always agree with other Mythicists like Humphreys but uses modern historical Methods! Please give me 3 reasons why you think God or Jesus existed?

Ken Ammi
I am unaware of having insulted Carrier. I discern an argument from authority. How, for example, does affirming that Jesus was “born of a woman” and “born under the law” amount to “not a earthly Jesus”?
Also, to jump from “plenty of time for lies and myth making” to therefore, myth making is just that: a jump to conclusion.
Since you failed to provide your worldview’s premise for adhering to truth, logic and ethics then is it fruitless to as for 3 reasons why God or Jesus existed since you are providing no criteria upon which to even have such a discussion.

Colin Dowson
So why does Carrier and Ken make the odds of Jesus Christ existing as between 1/3 and 1/12000…surely,they must have checked your sources and found them unreliable! Carrier says if there must evidence bas you are claiming,he would change his position,so ask him why? [ellipses in original]

Ken Ammi
Your qualifying term “surely” denotes your “faith” in them and as for Carrier, that “he would change his position” is equally “faithful”—keep in mind that he has a national network of women in his harem so he might, just might, have ulterior motives.
In any case, you are demanding evidence without a premise. According to your worldview if I believe in Jesus’ existence and He never existed then it literally does not matter.
You also seem to fail to notice that you are asking for evidence which would primarily emerge from Jerusalem, Jesus locus of ministry, which is a place that was razed in 70 AD. Would you ask someone whose paperwork was in the Twin Towers just before 9/11/2001 AD that they provide you that paperwork?
Also, considering that you subjectively do not believe that there is any or is insufficient evidence of Jesus do you realize how much less there is be other ancient personage whom it has surely not even crossed your mind to deny existed? This is not about history but about anti-Christian activism.

Colin Dowson
Ken Ammi https://youtu.be/79J1fzRgoR8
[A video about bad arguments for God]

Ken Ammi
Arguments for/against God are a secondary issue, at best, when dealing with Atheists.
You are demanding evidence without a premise. According to your worldview if I believe in Jesus’ existence and He never existed then it literally does not matter.
You also seem to fail to notice that you are asking for evidence which would primarily emerge from Jerusalem, Jesus locus of ministry, which is a place that was razed in 70 AD. Would you ask someone whose paperwork was in the Twin Towers just before 9/11/2001 AD that they provide you that paperwork?
Also, considering that you subjectively do not believe that there is any or is insufficient evidence of Jesus do you realize how much less there is be other ancient personage whom it has surely not even crossed your mind to deny existed? This is not about history but about anti-Christian activism.

Jesus Never Existed? Ken Humphreys vs. Nick Peters debate

Colin Dowson
Ken Ammi There is no God we can test for…you just have an self deluded,indoctrinated and craven mind to require one instead of letting Nature and Science do their work!!

Ken Ammi
Friend, by “There is no God we can test for” are you stating that “There is no God” or only that there is not one “we can test for”?
You asserted that I am indoctrinated but that is a conclusion to please provide your evidence.
You claim that I am self-deluded but even if that is the case, how is that problematic on your worldview (which would claim that theism is a Darwinian survival mechanism)?

John Thimakis chimed in with:
A religious person can never be a “free thinker” let alone use the qualifier “true”. Since by necessity you are beholden to a worldview that has “required” beliefs and “forbidden” beliefs.
So you aren’t free at all, you are very much constrained in your beliefs and your epistemology. Appealing to such flawed methods as intuitions, revelation, ancient texts, faith and church authorities

Ken Ammi:
Well friend, I have only had about 1,000 people say the very sort of thing to me so I will note a few things:
1. You imply dogmatic definitions of terms so that they cannot be changed.
2. Academic definitions of free thinking include deism (a form of religious theism).
3. Generally, free thinking denoted thinking in terms that do not necessarily accord to the current majority so that, for example, in a secular culture it is the theists who would be the true thinkers.
4. Free thinking is also about coming to conclusions not based on dogma, etc., and since that is what I have done then I qualify.
5. Atheism is thought restricting.
6. If we are merely chemically composed bio-organisms then our thoughts are the result of neuro-chemical reactions which are predetermined by universal laws (you know, those invisible, omnipresent, omnipotent administers of the universe) so that free thought would literally be impossible.
7. Your comment is a conclusion without an argument. How does your worldview provide you a premise for truth, logic or ethics and for holding others to these standards?

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Since neither replied again, that was the end of that. Yet, an Atheist engaged me in a discussion when I tweeted this article.

G W Bridge commented:
You can’t even evidence the christian god-myth as more real than the tooth fairy. Grow up kid. Get a better education. Ditch the belief in bronze-age Shasu-bedouin Arab wargods that you can’t show as real.

[I am going to insert this as it is quite fitting:
]

I, Ken Ammi, replied:
You positively asserted “the christian god-myth” so you must now prove it. What makes you think that I “can’t even evidence” God? Again (and again) “bronze-age Shasu-bedouin” is a genetic logical fallacy.

G W Bridge
You. Can’t. Reply. Evidencing. The. Christian. God. More. Real. Than. The. Tooth. Fairy.
What do you struggle to understand?
Can’t you ask a responsible adult to help you with the big words.

G W Bridge followed up with:
Sorry, “responsible”, here means, “capable of being trusted”.
I know that you struggle.

Ken Ammi
How does your worldview provide you a premise upon which to demand adherence to truth, logic and ethics? Note that without one your comments have been meaningless. Also, please look up “genetic logical fallacy.”

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And that, as they say, was the end of that as no more replies were forthcoming.

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