Atheist claims “You don’t need a god to come up with moral principles. Anybody can do it” 6/6

Concluding considering a discussion which took place due to my video Atheist defines morality “I want what I want…it’s good because it’s what I want”: see all portions of this discussion here.


Concluding considering a discussion which took place due to my video Atheist defines morality “I want what I want…it’s good because it’s what I want”: see all portions of this discussion here.

While you are at it, see my book Pop-Atheist Bible Expositors starring Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris, Dan Barker, and Neil deGrasse Tyson and also my book Reasons for Being An Atheist: A Comprehensive Guide

robtbo
Ken Ammi You don’t seem to understand what a fact is. If ethics is an objective foundation for morality, there would be no dissent amongst morals. If ethics is an agreement amongst those sharing individual morals, there”d be ethical dissent. Which is the case?

Ken Ammi
Well, the issue you raised pertains to your view of anthropology since you are merely asserting that “If ethics is an objective foundation for morality, there would be no dissent amongst morals” but just as there is a law against murder but people still commit it, there is an obvious absolute ethos even if people chose to disregards it, misapply it within their moral actions, “They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them” (Romans 2:15).
I would love to keep going round and round but as it is, due to time constraints, I only devote one day to replying to comments and it is taking me hours to do so.
I am wondering why any of this is an issue for you. If you really believe that we are temporarily and accidentally existing bio-organisms then what does it matter how we interpret random bio-chemical reactions within our brains?
If theism is a Darwinian survival mechanism then why do you seek to decrease the survivability of others?
How does your worldview provide you a premise for even holding others to standards of truth, ethics, logic or for you to condemn anything?

robtbo
Ken Ammi It’s not about anthropology, it’s about observable reality.
You seem to think you’ve proven something when all you’ve done is to say “here’s the way it works…” then when you’re shown it doesn’t always work that way, you ignore it, despite the objections being observable in reality.
The only alternative for you is to stop ignoring reality and admit that you’ve only said “here’s the way it works… except when it doesn’t work this way” which is no more a proof than what you have, but at least then you’d be speaking honestly.
As for why it matters to me, that’s simply a brute fact. The understanding that I have a life expectancy doesn’t change the way I feel about life.

Ken Ammi
Friend, firstly, you are setting up accurately observing reality as some sort of imperative even though your worldview provides you no premise upon which to do so. Thus, you are begging, borrowing and stealing from my worldview.
But I have already asked you to reiterate just what it is that I was supposedly shown which proves “it doesn’t always work…” so please do so.
I am wondering why any of this is an issue for you. If you really believe that we are temporarily and accidentally existing bio-organisms then what does it matter how we interpret random bio-chemical reactions within our brains?
If theism is a Darwinian survival mechanism then why do you seek to decrease the survivability of others?
How does your worldview provide you a premise for even holding others to standards of truth, ethics, logic or for you to condemn anything?

robtbo
Ken Ammi Your response is exactly as irrelevant as the last time you attempted to use its content to change the subject.
For every example of a universally agreed upon ethical foundation you offer, I’ve offered a specific counter example that falsified the universality of your example. You will have to accept each as not only observational, but common, should you choose to acknowledge those counter examples have been given.
This is why you’d rather go around and around for months on other subjects rather than the one this video is about. You can not deny the validity of my counter examples.

Ken Ammi
I have already asked you to reiterate just what it is that I was supposedly shown which proves “it doesn’t always work…” so please do so and merely reiterating your assertion of having done so is just that: an empty assertion from silence. Thus, please provide specific quotations which show that for every example of a universally agreed upon ethical foundation you have offered a specific counter example that falsified the universality of mine.
Speaking of empty assertion from silence: it matters to you as a brute fact is just an aka for recognizing that you have no premise whatsoever but are attempting to fill your objectively meaningless existence with subjective meaning like telling yourself that you are right and anyone who disagrees is wrong because you possess the only truth.

robtbo
Ken Ammi “Don’t be a hero.” How many weeks have you pretended that you’ve never heard the phrase, much less acknowledge that it’s so common that it’s cliche? Your suggestion about honesty. Totally out the window. Even the suggestion that everyone tries to perceive what they do as moral is easy to show disagreement with. Your concept of ethics is far from universal.

Ken Ammi
To review: I requested “specific quotations” and you failed to provide them and that goes towards proving that my concept of ethos is universal.

robtbo
Ken Ammi You’re going to continue to pretend that attempted heroism is often discouraged in favor of cowardly behavior. Keep living in your fantasy world, my friend.

Ken Ammi
I am unsure why I would “pretend that attempted heroism is often discouraged in favor of cowardly behavior” when I never stated any such thing. This is why I continued to requested “specific quotations” which you have still failed to provide.

robtbo
Ken Ammi You clearly specified that heroism was objectively ethical. The fact that it is often discouraged in accordance with ethics shows that the specific example you gave is not objectively ethical. Even if you were to present an example that would be agreed with, iyou could derive nothing further about it than that all available subjective beings capable of communicating agreement agree. You could do nothing to support the idea that it’s an objective ethical principle.

Ken Ammi
Technically, I did not “clearly specified that heroism was objectively ethical” but that it is objectively ethical that people agree that heroism is to be praised: such is the problem with not providing quotations.
To say that “it is often discouraged in accordance with ethics” is a mere assertion to which I say: citation needed.
But then you argue that if I “were to present an example that would be agreed with” aka objective ethics then we “could derive nothing further about it than that all available subjective beings capable of communicating agreement agree” so that if I proved my case then I would prove my case and that would mean that this would “do nothing to support the idea that it’s an objective ethical principle”: what?!
In any case, how does your worldview provide you a premise upon which to demand adherence to truth, logic and ethics? Keep in mind that the more you argue against objective ethics, the more you disqualify yourself from condemning anything at all on anything but your brain’s bio-chemical neural reactions de jour.

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And that was the end as no reply was forthcoming.

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