Whoa dude, two books??? How can u complain before about these being so long- write a book and then two books after? To try n shorten this- I am going to ignore questions u have already asked 1000 times which u will inevitably do.
We do decide what is best for our lifestyle. We have no choice. There’s no one shouting down from the clouds what we should be doing. We have to learn from experiences and our mistakes. Murder to me is bad because u r taking someone else’s life. If everyone went around murdering each other it wouldn’t be a very nice place. Murder, to me, is wrong for all the same reasons it is wrong to u, minus god calling it wrong. Let’s take slavery as another example. It’s wrong for all the reasons we both think it is wrong. Because it’s harmful. Minus god saying it’s wrong except ur holy book doesn’t actually call it wrong- it endorses it. I can value people without the need for a god to tell me they need value. Value in itself is subjective. There is no ‘objective’ value to anything- even with a god. Unless u redefine value as something. My worldview is realistic. If u want to believe every bad person is magically punished then go ahead. But unfortunately- this is not the case. For the hundredth time- it’s wishful thinking.
Omg. See, I want to ignore the things I’ve said 100 times but I can’t. NO! Just because everyone agrees that happiness is what is desired doesn’t make it objective! A subjective opinion remains a subjective opinion regardless of how many people agree with it. Just because everyone prefers chocolate over poo, doesn’t make chocolate objectively tastier than poo. But even if this was the case- there’s still no need for a god! It’s so frustrating because literally the last message u sent u said u didn’t say this- now u r saying it! This is why we can’t progress.
Can u name me one humanist that endorses baby killing? I don’t think so… Now look at the the passages in the bible that do condone child murder and mass genocide…
Lol. So I have no evidence that we only have one life? How about the evidence where we see people dying and… that’s it. One life. There’s no evidence of an afterlife! Like I said, an afterlife would be nice, but there’s simply no evidence for one. It’s just something people believe in for comfort from death. So far, ‘my worldview’ is all that can be demonstrated to exist. Ur worldview is just a happy delusion for the credulous and afraid.
I’ve mentioned before- if the only way people can be happy is to keep to their delusion they were brought up with then so be it. But it should not be endorsed as truth and we should focus our efforts on giving people real reasons to live instead of impossible ones.
R we 6? A little profanity doesn’t hurt. Atheism makes pain and suffering worse? How? Perhaps u think that deluding urself into thinking people get what they deserve or that it’s all for a purpose might soften the blow. Maybe? Again, if delusions r the only way u can cope, then sure. But there r healthier and real ways to deal with this also.
Nothing is ‘objectively’ wrong because right and wrong r both subjective by definition. It’s just a human concept. Just like nothing is ‘objectively’ beautiful or tasty. My whole point is ur worldview claims things to be objectively wrong is delusional. And in fact, the way u described objective morality- an atheist could very well take the same approach if it’s just what we agree on. No requirement for a supernatural entity either- which is what Sam Harris states.
If people didn’t like wealth for some reason- then wealth would be seen as bad too. But, it just so happens people do like wealth. The ends justify the means. That’s why morality is relative. Lying is seen as bad but if in a particular case it would turn out to save someone’s life or something- it would be seen as good.
What do u mean ur worldview provides intelligibility? It does the opposite. Miracles defy the laws of nature and does the opposite. God could change it at any minute and make up go down or 2+2=5. U lose predictive abilities when u invoke supernatural shenanigans. Brains have evolved so that the organisms that were able to understand their environment better survived and reproduced. That’s how we understand the universe. Not because some super being just gave it to u. Again, I will not repeat how natural selection isn’t random, nor r the processes of the brain. If living in a fantasy somehow benefited u- then u would survive better. However, this is not typically the case. Those who believe they can fly and jump of buildings don’t tend to last as long as the people who understand these things better.
Natural selection is a fact. Even Ken Ham and the most cringe worthy creationists accept it. Just not that it influenced all life. Instead they believe everything was conjured up fully formed all at once. Which I hope U don’t believe…
Why do u label laws as omnipotent, infallible, etc? Depending on how u define these qualities, they r not. By this I’m referring to the problem that a creature who has only the desire to scratch is ear and is able to can also fit the definition of omnipotence.
Again, the only ‘designer’ of the brain is natural selection. Unless u believed it was conjured up fully formed. Please don’t tell me u r a YEC. And that’s what I never understood. Even if a god did exist- why do u think he didn’t design u as ur brain that way? Again, I cannot explain evolution or natural selection to u any more. I’m simply wasting my time now. Argument from incredulity as always.
I think u need to reread the argument before u reply. We were originally talking about the brain controlling u. U being the brain. Now u seem to accept that idea but before u were saying how there must be more- that there must be something else taking place? That ‘random’ chemical reactions can’t create thought n stuff?
The laws of nature, thermodynamics, etc can be demonstrated materially. They’re just how we describe the laws. The soul is and cannot.
Did u not read what I said about Pavlov’s dog at all? It’s called conditioning… This does not suggest one bit that the brain is separate from the mind. Ur eyes see the food. Ur brain recognises ‘oh, food, snack time’. Ur mouth generates saliva to break it up. It is all still done in the brain! We can literally monitor this with brain scans too. Not to mention this experiment was also done on dogs! They managed to even associate the sound of a bell with food. So, I’m guessing dogs have souls/minds too? Does every animal have this? I don’t even know why I’m continuing. The experiment not once claimed that this shows some immaterial realm. That’s ridiculous. You’re starting to sound like inspiring philosophy.
A beautiful mind? Remind me? Because I can already tell it’s going to be as silly as ur first analogy.
Oh no! If u can provide scientific evidence for god- please do! It’s theists who claim u can’t test for god naturally because he’s supernatural. How do u test for god? Someone gave the example of a firing squad. All competent marksmen shoot at their human target and all miss. We could test for why. We can test for blanks. If the marksmen were really competent. If the iron sites were off. But how could we test that a immaterial, disembodied mind deflected the bullets magically by sheer will? How do u test that?
I forgot to mention but thanks for using paragraphs. It makes it so much easier. Atheism is not asserted without evidence. Atheism is simply not being convinced of a god because of a lack of evidence for that positive claim. There is no burden of proof. But most atheists r sceptics. We only accept what can be shown to be true. It makes no sense to flip that quote on atheists.
If u cannot demonstrate the existence of a soul- on what basis should I then believe in it? Especially when we have a perfectly sound natural explanation which we can demonstrate. Having no reason to believe u is a pretty good reason not to believe u. Yes, atheism has nothing to do with science. It’s simply a lack of belief in god/s. But the reasons for this r typically because of science. Science works. It’s what powers ur computer. Flies u to different location. God has no predictive power and doesn’t do anything except give u a made up answer.
And everyone also believed the world was flat before we were able to demonstrate otherwise. People were persecuted if they didn’t believe in god, not to mention the peer pressure and early indoctrination. Atheism is growing as people get smarter and understand how it’s all just a fairy tale made up thousands of years ago for control. Achieving it through the rewards of impossible prizes and the threat of burning for eternity if u didn’t accept the nonsense they spout.
It is meaningless to the universe. Yes. What’s so bad about that? Why can’t it just mean something to u. Moreover, even if god did exist- value would still be subjective. Why should I care what god says? Cause he’ll have me burn? But what if I don’t care about burning in hell? Why does something only matter if an all powerful being says it matters? Truth is objective. My value for truth is subjective. So whether I care or not about the Earth being round or flat is subjective but the truth of the Earth being round is objective.
xD. By eat dust he meant it as humility? The phrase ‘another one bites the dust’ was invented long after that.’You will crawl on your belly and you will eat dust all the days of your life.’ It’s pretty specific. But sure, do what every theist does and explain all the stupidity in the bible away as a metaphor. It’s ridiculously dishonest when theists try to twist things like this.
I think I have only just noticed u don’t accept evolution? Do u believe in a young Earth too? Do u actually believe 6000 years ago everything was just conjured up by god all at the same time? I had given u more credit than that but I may have been too kind? I thought u may be one of those theists who claim god helped guide evolution- which I have to say, altho still silly, I respect a lot more. I should have probably known tho since u still seem to have no clue how evolution via natural selection works.
I’ve explained what evil is. Evil doesn’t exist. It’s just a label with give things that we don’t like and/or that r harmful to us. A property of earthquakes isn’t ‘evilness’. We just call it that cause it’s harmful to us. It’s a human concept of which I have explained multiple times.
Lol, no. We can show a global flood didn’t happen by looking at geology, palaeontology- and just about every other ‘ology’ there is. Every animal on a boat being tended to by 8 people for an entire year? I can go into this a bit more but again, I gave u more credit than believing these parts. Thought u would explain this story away as a metaphor too but I am concerned u actually believe it? And people don’t rise from the dead… Simple biology can tell u that. It’s a little too simple to even explain and I feel a bit condescending- unless u actually want me to go thru the detail?
Like I said, if people choose to believe in fantasies- so be it. But we should encourage people living in the real world and not rely on delusions to be happy. Don’t lie to someone and say you’ll have an eternal life if u believe in bs that could actually harm the short life u actually have. Just like telling someone they’ll get an unlimited amount of money if they follow a specific set of absurd rules eventually.
I don’t see how having a subjective opinion on life is a delusion? An opinion is whatever u want it to be. And I don’t see how accepting reality is consoling? We r still accountable for our actions and our children’s futures. Again, I have no reason or evidence to believe I am going to live forever. That’s not what reality shows. Would it be nice to live forever? Of course. But it’ll also be nice for a billion pounds to randomly enter my bank account or a bunch of supermodels waiting in my bedroom one day. It’s not going to happen. (Well at least the billion pounds and supermodels analogy have a logical chance unlike heaven). U seem to think that atheism is some sort of belief system. It’s not. As if it is something we choose. U do not. U conform ur beliefs to the evidence, not the other way around. If there is no evidence or reason for me to believe in heaven, then I have no reason to believe in it besides the fact that it may provide some sort of comfort from death. Which I find pointless and am strong enough to accept isn’t true.
Omg, so much of that was wrong. God didn’t ground anything. The scientific method was created by man in which we r able to investigate reality. But even science is not absolute. It just gives u the best working models that describe reality. God has absolutely nothing to do with it. There is no biblical foundation for science anywhere. The bible gets so much so wrong. Stars r not tiny things in the sky that can wage wars. Disease is not the result of impure spirits. And cattle mating withing a striped fence will not produce a striped calf… And of course, much, much more.
So ur objective purpose is whatever ur maker tells u? Essentially, u r a slave then. Like how we design robots to do whatever we want them to, ur god has designed u to do whatever he wants u to? And if u r defective in any way, he throws u in hell. Great purpose. And what has he asked u to do? What is the great purpose he has bestowed upon u?
If there is an objective meaning, please provide objective evidence of said meaning. Otherwise, I have no reason to believe there is an objective meaning.
Lol, u know Hitler was a roman catholic? He was baptised and quoted himself doing god’s work? This is basic history. Just cause u r a christian doesn’t mean u can’t be ‘bad’. Look at every KKK member or remaining nazi. ALL Christian. Look at the homophobes. All religious- Christian or Muslim.
I matter to myself and that’s a subjective opinion. There’s nothing delusional about opinions. To think u matter to some all powerful being is delusional. I can’t tell if u r being ironic on purpose or not sometimes.
Okay, I really can’t take u seriously sometimes. Atheists feel comfort in believing they’re going to be annihilated? No? No we don’t? It’s a harsh reality but a reality nonetheless? If u offered atheists a real chance at eternal life most would take it- like myself. I think I might start ignoring stupid comments like these in order to save time. Altho I sometimes find them fun.
Has god set up all the rules? If so, he should be able to manipulate them however he likes. If he has not set up all the rules, then there’s something else he is bound by and he didn’t do everything. Does god choose his will? Logic has nothing to do with an eternal mind. It’s the process of reasoning. Man made. And this ‘nothing’ u refer to exploding is not nothing nor is it an explosion. By ‘nothing’ they refer to quantum fluctuations which to us look like nothing and the big bang is an expansion, not an explosion. That’s like calling nuclear fusion a fire. Just remember, a theist discovered the big bang and an atheist ridiculed it originally.
I don’t see why god can’t change the rules to where 2+2 can equal 5 if he’s the one who made that rule in the first place? Unless, he is bound by logic itself. Which means he didn’t create it- he is restricted by it just as we r. Omg, how embarrassing. U think the bible is quoting the law of identity there? Idk what to say. I’ll ignore the silly stuff.
Solipsism is something no philosopher has figured out and most likely will never do. That’s what I am referring to when I talk about absolutes. The fact that we all (even Christians) take everything thru our senses and our senses r fallible so u can never be absolute. Even if I was a christian and god was verifiable- this would still be a problem.
U agree with the imaginary friend u just made up. Sure, u can word it like that too. But so does every other religion and denomination of Christianity that disagrees with u- all with the same amount of evidence to back it up as each other- none.
People like u who r blissful in their ignorance- sure. Do what u will. I’m reaching out to those people who care about truth and would rather live in reality.
No. I’m referring to the soul argument… My ‘worldview’ says u r not in control of these thoughts. These r ur subconscious. That’s it. But free will in which u think u have control other thoughts since u r free to choose them leads to an infinite regression since ur soul/mind thought ur thought to ur brain- but why did ur soul/mind think that? Did u have control? If u did, then what made that think of that? And so on. The point was- determinism would be true regardless if a soul existed either way. U didn’t choose or make ur soul. Please stop making silly comments. If u can’t answer something properly, just have the humility to admit it instead of trying to flip it back on me.
Wanting it in a selfish way? How does that make any sense? Unless, u want it and want them also not to have it? If my neighbour has a nice car, I can’t help myself wanting that car too. So is it not a sin to want my neighbours car? Again, ur interpretations of the bible r so out of sync with what it actually says. It simply says don’t covet. That’s it. Nothing about how to covet in a good way or bad way. U r appealing to ur own thoughts on it. In heaven, aren’t u allowed whatever u want? Or r u limited? What r the rules of heaven?
Let’s take a priest who is attracted to little boys. Unlike his other priests, he’s able to withstand the temptation and gets up to heaven.
He want’s a little boy as his partner. He’s not attracted to anyone else. Can he get his little boy wife in heaven? What if that’s all he wants to make him happy? Does god violate his ‘free will’ and take away this desire?
No… my worldview does not say that… Again, should I answer a silly comment or move on? I’l do a short one. Even animals show self control. My rabbits trained themselves to poo outside. Dog’s won’t eat a treat until u give them an order. Like anything else, there r reasons as to why we should fight basic instinct. Because it’s more beneficial overall.
Near enough everything is a sin. Thought crime. U can’t lust over someone or even be angry at someone since that’s seen as adultery and murder. What about homosexuals in heaven? If they r even allowed… Then what about in the closet homosexuals? Many of them go thru life unhappy. What if they just want a same sex partner to be with because that’s what they’re attracted to? Again, does god violate their free will with that and make them straight?
So god does violate their free will? Get’s rid of part of their personality? Which essentially makes u a robot. A perfect machine that has no bad thoughts whatsoever? Some people like their sin. Being gay may be what defines them. Essentially- everyone is the same in heaven because of the strict parameters. U have no thoughts of lust, anger or desires. How much of ‘u’ is left?
My mother is Catholic and unless she was manipulated by god (which he seems to do in heaven according to u) – me burning in hell for eternity for simply not believing is not a convincing reason for her… That’s my point. And have u seen mother’s whose children r in jail or on death row? They understand but they’re certainly still not happy about it! They’ll still mourn. So in heaven, even if my mum did understand- which she wouldn’t if that was the reason- it doesn’t mean she still wouldn’t be upset about it?
More alarm bells. U believe in demons too? And for the third time now. U know what I mean by disbelief. Someone could be the nicest person on the planet but if they don’t believe in god, according to the bible- they’re still going to hell. If my only sin was disbelief- I’d still go to hell. Which is a pretty stupid reason.
Except people don’t see them as another bio-organism. They see them as a loved family member whom they r going to miss. This is both true whether or not a god also sees them as this or not.
Sure, I’m sure there r ‘bad’ atheists out there along with ‘bad’ religious people. Atheists who do bad things because there’s no divine punishment- even tho human punishment and sheer empathy is typically enough to persuade them not to, as well as bad christians who do bad things in the name of their imaginary god. Ur god says it’s okay to wipe out an entire nation including the children or stone people for minor transgressions so it’s just. Good people will do good things and bad people will do bad things but if u want a good person to do bad- u manipulate them with religion.
The irony is no longer funny. Atheists r not desperate for life not being eternal. In fact, like I said, most atheists would love the idea of it. Me being one of them. But it’s quite clearly an silly made up reward people offer u as a reason to believe. To control u. And u r so desperate not to die that u r willing to believe anything for it. Just be thankful u have a life and forsake u vain presumptuous desire for a second one. Instead, let’s give people real reasons to live, real reasons to be good instead of deluded made up ones that they can’t live without.
I find it hard to lie to myself? Impossible in fact since ik it’s a lie but ik other people can convince themselves. U being religious I can guess u being one of those people… I have made mistakes, yes but I try to learn from them. I’m not perfect but U can’t say I hate myself. I wouldn’t say everyone is their own worst enemy either. I, like may people, try to better themselves constantly and sometimes that requires the help of an outside force. I would like to offer myself as that force sometimes for people. Help plant the seed in their head that grows and rids themselves of the disease that is something like, oh idk, religion…
Well, I suppose that the only course of action is to cut the serpent’s head right off and only focus on a few items.
The fact is that according to your worldview the universe and everything in it, including you and your thought, exists accidentally and temporarily and that opens the door wide enough to fall off of its hinges for absolutely anything, and to enjoy absolutely anything and to get away with absolutely anything. Playing the card that affirming absolute meaning and judgment is a delusion does not make it so that your worldview does not do that. Thus, you complain but are just an ape pounding away at your keyboard to write things that are ultimately utterly devoid of meaning and violate that you also claim that life is about subjective meaning while seeking to discredit other people’s meaning. You have just subjectively decided that there are certain things you do not like de jour—which you actually beg, borrow and steal from my worldview since your personal preferences do not follow from yours.
Name one humanist that endorses “baby killing,” it is actually murder in this context but sure: just to name one single one, The American Humanist Association—how is this even a question? You then direct me to the Bible which is you committing the logical fallacy of tu quoque, you merely assert without evidence that it condones “child murder and mass genocide,” and even if it did: you could not condemn it with anything beyond that you personally decided to not like it and you could not tell me to give it up if it fulfill my subjective meaning.
For you to state, “If u can provide scientific evidence for god- please do!” means that you are not incorporating the fact of what the scientific method is. It was premised upon biblical theology, as any book on the history of science will affirm, and was designed to explore the material realm. Since traditionally, God has been viewed as immaterial then what you are asking is tantamount to demanding wet evidence of a dry object or, to see Jupiter through a microscope or, a cell through a telescope: wrong tool for the wrong job. However, I assume you believe in unobserved, invisible, intangible, omnipresent, omnipotent laws (of nature, thermodynamics, etc.). You can only show me their effect but not them, themselves.
Beyond “simply not being convinced of a god because of a lack of evidence for that positive claim” Atheism is a worldview and one that cannot even justify a demand for evidence.
Now I see where your confusion is about coveting, it is not that “If my neighbour has a nice car, I can’t help myself wanting that car too” but more like “If my neighbour has a nice car, I can’t help wanting my neighbour’s car” about which your worldview would say: then take it!
I also got a HUGE window into how you “think” about things since you say that my “interpretations of the bible r so out of sync with what it actually says. It simply says don’t covet. That’s it.” That is not it because that statement is wrapped around immediate and greater context so that I do not read it myopically.
Then you complain “U r appealing to ur own thoughts on it” but according to you that it the only thing I really have, or the only thing I really am (and, of course, you are referring to the byproduct of neural reactions).
When you ask, “In heaven, aren’t u allowed whatever u want? Or r u limited? What r the rules of heaven?” you need to incorporate what we already discussed about it which is that “allowed whatever u want” is, of course, “limited” to what which lacks sin.
Your fantasies about pedophile attracted priests in heaven speak for themselves.
I do not recall you ever defining free will but I already pointed out that, by definition, EVERYONE’s definition of it includes that it is restricted (within parameters, remember that?). Thus, yes of course God so called “violate their free will” what kind of ethical being would not? As a dad I constantly seek to “violate” my kids’ free will and that is called “parenting.”
Thus, since you fail to incorporate the fact about free will always existing within parameters, you make Je June comments such as that restricting free will “makes u a robot.” And you say this even while your worldview tells you that you have no free will but are a robot who merely follows the byproducts of the laws of nature, neural reactions in your gray-matter, etc.
As per your worldview, when “‘bad’ atheists” do “bad” they are merely subjectively deciding what gives their lives meaning and do not violate any objective definition of “bad” so that they are only doing “bad” according to your subjective definition which is impotent and baseless.
I cannot speak for generic “religious people” (99.9% of all humans always) but as for Christians, when they do “bad” they are violating that which they are to be upholding and will be held accountable.
When you say “Ur god says it’s okay to wipe out an entire nation” you are not only merely expressing subjective personal preferences but are clearly unaware of what the Bible (as an actual whole) states about such issues. Also, you refer to stoning “people for minor transgressions” which, again, is a mere expression of brain chemicals and also un-evidenced.
“Good people will do good things and bad people will do bad things but if u want a good person to do bad- u manipulate them with” Atheism. And, of course, you are merely presupposing that there is any such thing as actual “good” and “bad.”
Well, it seems that in you I have met a person who’s life is utterly well put together (which, of course, is very, very easy to do when you make subjective rules for yourself which you can violate at will since you would actually not be violating anything). If you do not believe that you are your worst enemy, I would recommend deep reflection since 99% of everything that has ever gone wrong for you is due to you. In fact, you would have no reason so “try to better” yourself “constantly” unless you recognized this.
And finally, at last, the big reveal: you view yourself as some sort of Atheist missionary, a “force” no less, whose mission in life (an utterly subjective one) is to urge people to rid “themselves of the disease that is something like, oh idk, religion.” Thank you so very much for being so open and blunt. I find it often take some time, as it did with us, for the truth to come out but it has with this reveal.
You are one of the purest most ultimate textbook classic examples of projection I have ever encountered.
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