The question What are the angels’ true form? was discussed as follows at the Quora site.
Milan Woodson (self-identified as “Angels studies through the Bible for over two decades”) replied:
The true form of angels is exemplified in the physical human form. But angels are metamorphic, being able to change their appearance, shape or form and size. Naturally they are much larger than stars, so when the visit the earth they normally reduce their size to human size.
The angelic form is of supernatural or superior natural forces and energies, which are beyond physics. Their true form is naturally invisible to physical sight. But they can also transform into visible and tangible form like as a human and vanish instantaneously as well.
I, Ken Ammi, replied:
Biblically, Angels only ever look just like human males. There’s no indication that they’re “metamorphic, being able to change their appearance, shape or form and size…much larger than stars” nor that they “reduce their size to human size.”
Milan Woodson:
Biblically angels are depicted like human males when they are in the presence of humans. Otherwise they are depicted simply as a human form. There is indication of metamorphic ability. They transform from angelic form into human form. In revelation chapter one, one spirit is said to have held seven stars in one hand and at another time an angel stood on land and sea with his head above the clouds.
At other times angels are depicted in human size. In heaven other angels are depicted as living creatures with four heads and animal features and that of man. Angels also have wings, yet when they transform into human form they do not display wings. All of this indicates that they can change their appearances, shapes and sizes. Shortsightedness and taking things at the surface appearance prevents one from understanding this.
Ken Ammi:
Appreciate the elucidation.
Appealing to Revelation is tricky since so much of it is visionary/symbolic. Jesus is the one who holds the seven stars, not an Angel, and clearly, the stars are symbolic of churches—not that He’s holding celestial objects like the Sun.
The “other angels” who are “In heaven” are not Angels at all, they appear to be Cherubim (see Eze chaps 1 and 10). Likewise, Angels don’t have wings: that’s either Cherubim or Seraphim (see Isa chap 6).
Thus, there’s no indication at all “of metamorphic ability. They transform from angelic form into human form” nor that “they transform into human form.”
Milan Woodson:
Thanks for your reply. But although there is symbolism it also holds true in a literal sense. Whatever God reveals is often true in both a spiritual and literal sense when disclosing something in either sense. What God says in truth, through and through.
Jesus is the Son of God, and the angels are sons of God. They are all naturally much larger in form than humans, even planets and stars in the spirit realm, for they can transform both their size and appearances.
Actually, cherubim and seraphim are ranks of angels. Cherubim are royal guardians and seraphim are royal attendants of God. All angels have wings and fly. While the common angels are messengers with two wings, cherubim have two wings but form four when they merge into one as one of the four living creatures. Seraphim have six wings but when they merge as one of four living creatures they maintain six wings.
There indication of metamorphism throughout the scriptures in plain sight which can easily be overlooked or pass over one’s head. First, angels can transform into a single living creature by merging with one another and produce more wings than each individual may have, with multiple eyes because of the merger of so many. Second, angels can transform into human form. Third, angels can be as small as a human, a giant on earth or even larger than solar systems, to hold several stars in one hand. Angels do more than most realize, for most simply take things at face value as is written and do not see the hidden information right before there eyes.
Ken Ammi:
Thanks for your reply as well.
Now, the issue was “There’s no indication that they’re ‘…able to change their appearance, shape or form and size…much larger than stars’ nor that they ‘reduce their size to human size.’”
So, replying by merely repeating an assertion will only lead to me stating that, again, there’s no indication that “They are all naturally much larger in form than humans…they can transform both their size and appearances.”
Since Cherubim and Seraphim aren’t Angels, how could they be ranks of Angels?
Also, “common angels are messengers” but there’s no indication they have “two wings.”
Also, “cherubim have” four, as you note, but never described as having “two wings.”
There’s also no indication that “angels can transform into human form.”
I already noted that you are misunderstanding the issue of holding stars.
Milan Woodson:
You say: “There’s no indication that they’re ‘…able to change their appearance, shape or form and size…much larger than stars’ nor that they ‘reduce their size to human size.”
The Scriptures indicate.
TRANSFORMING APPEARANCE.
“Satan himself keeps transforming himself into an angel of light.” 2Co 11:14
TRANSFORMING SIZE.
Tall enough to have a cloud around him, to have his head under a rainbow and the have one foot on the sea and the other on the surface of the earth.
“like an angel of God, like Christ Jesus.” Ga 4:14
“he had in his right hand seven stars” Re 1:16
(Likely Jesus as a spirit, was participating in the vision from space about a seven star group, likely the Pleiades. Jesus was not on earth nor in heaven when John got a vision of heaven. Hence, Jesus must have been in space. Re 5:2, 3
His one hand could span a seven group of stars, which are light years apart from one another.)
“angel descending from heaven, arrayed with a cloud, and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as the sun…set his right foot upon the sea, but his left foot upon the earth.” Re 10:1, 2
At other times they take on human size, the size of men.
“he looked and there were three men…the men got on their way to Sodom” Ge 18:2, 22
“Now the two angels arrived in Sodom by evening” Ge 19:1
You say: Since Cherubim and Seraphim aren’t Angels, how could they be ranks of Angels?
The Scriptures reveal that angels are spirits and public ministers of and for God.
“Making his angels spirits, his ministers a devouring fire.” Ps 104:4
To say cherubim and seraphim are not angels is a an assumption and presumptuous statement without any proof behind it.
God is orderly and has his angels in order.
“God is a God, not of disorder” 1Co 14:33
All his angels make up his heavenly army. Armies have ranks in its membership with different positions and roles.
“Praise him, all you his angels. Praise him, all you his army.” Ps 148:2
Archangel, means chief or principal angel. Yet, the archangel is still an angel. He is also the Prince of the heavenly army of other angels. Hence, archangel is a title of and rank of angel. Therefore, there are ranks and positions of angels, with titles.
“Michael the archangel” Jude 9
The archangel is also…
“the Prince of the army” Da 8:11
Michael, one of the foremost princes” Da 10:13
“the Prince of princes” Da 8:25
Hence, there are angels that serve as princes, that sit on thrones. Da 7:9, 10; Re 4:4, 9–11
You say: there’s no indication they have “two wings.”
The Scriptures reveal that individual cherubim have two wings
“the cherubs must spread out their two wings” Ex 25:20
You say: Also, “cherubim have” four, as you note, but never described as having “two wings.”
The Scriptures early on reveal, as noted above, that individual cherubim have two wings. But a conglomerate of merged cherubim manifests four wings. The Scriptures call this formation of angels as a living creature.
“the living creature…were cherubs…each one had four wings” Eze 10:20, 21
While individual seraphim have six wings, a merger of seraphim as a living creature still has six wings.
“Seraphs…Each one had six wings” Is 6:2, 3
“around the thrown there are four living creatures…each one respectively has six wings” Re 4:6, 8
Angels, transform and have different ranks and positions. Those that have higher rank than messenger are often called by their rank when being specifically considered. Otherwise they are all angels just as all are humans, although we hold different ranks and positions. Saying a cherubim and seraphim is not an angel is like saying a security guard and a court attendant are not humans or men just because they are not called that but by their title.
The Scriptures are where the answers are found.
Ken Ammi:
Most interesting, I love it!
Please be mindful to never base a view on just one verse.
For example, you should have quoted 2 Co 11 vss. 13-15 which would have made it clear that what you quote as Satan “transforming himself” does not refer to shapeshifting. It goes on to say, “Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works” regarding what it began by noting which are humans who were “false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ” and humans don’t shapeshift.
That was about Satan pretending to be a messenger of God.
It also won’t help when you make a claim, I shows you how it’s mistaken, and you just repeat the claim.
FYI: atop certain mountains at certain times of the day or during certain whether phenomena any of us can “have a cloud around him” so this is not about being “Tall” since there are a lot of times when clouds are low-hanging.
Also, by definition everyone on Earth has “his head under a rainbow” after certain rains since the rainbow is above us.
And I’ve been to many beaches and rivers and have had “one foot on the sea and the other on the surface of the earth.”
But more specifically, the verse you quote elucidates it for us, “angel descending from heaven, arrayed with a cloud, and a rainbow was upon his head” so he was tall enough to reach the sky but was coming down from the sky, “and his face was as the sun,” “as” is but not near it, “set his right foot upon the sea, but his left foot upon the earth” just like you can do any time at any waterfront.
Again, don’t just read one single verse, Re 1:16, and invent a “Likely” story about “the vision from space” but keep reading to find out that the stars are symbolic of churches and/or the Angels watching over those churches.
It’s a matter of categorization and the law of identify that, by definition, Cherubim and Seraphim aren’t Angels and so aren’t ranks of Angels.
The proof behind it is that we are never told that they are Angels and that Angels, Cherubim, and Seraphim have different job titles, different job functions, and look different from one another. In fact, why argue that Cherubim and Seraphim are Angles rather than that Angels and Seraphim are Cherubim or that Angles and and Seraphim are Cherubim?
Also, there’s no indication that “angels are spirits”: the one single version of Ps 104:4 should have read, according to the context, that they are “winds” as many versions right have it: Psalm 104:4 – Bible Gateway (https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Psalm%20104:4)
So, the ranks are Seraphim, Cherubim, Archangel, and regular Angels—not necessarily in that order.
Just because Michael is “one of the foremost princes” doesn’t mean he sits on a throne.
I have no idea what version you’re quoting that states, “the cherubs must spread out their two wings.”
There’s no indication that “Angels, transform and have different ranks and positions” since, for example, we’re never told that Michael sometimes is and sometimes is not the Archangel nor that a regular Angel ever becomes an Archangel.
It’s not the case that “Saying a cherubim and seraphim is not an angel is like saying a security guard and a court attendant are not humans or men just because they are not called that but by their title.”
Rather, it’s saying both a security guard and a court attendant are humans but have different job titles and functions.
Likewise, Angels, Cherubim, and Seraphim are all creations of God meant to serve Him but are different categories of being.
And that was all since no more replies were forthcoming.
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