The question What happened to the giant people (Nephilim) mentioned in Genesis before Noah’s flood? Did they survive the flood like some other animals did? was posted to the Quora site and I replied
The last of them died in the flood. Centuries later, some unreliable guys made up an “evil report” about having seen them and were rebuked by God (Num chaps 13–14).
Any concept of post-flood Nephilim implies that God failed: He meant to be rid of them via the flood but couldn’t get the job done, He must have missed a loophole that you found, the flood was much of a waste, etc. See, fallacious Nephilology negatively effects theology proper. Also, post-flood Nephilologists have to just invent un-biblical tall-tales about how they made it past the flood.
This describes 100% of pop-Nephilologists. And those who claim they survived the flood contradict the Bible five times.
I’ve written whole books debunking them such as, “Nephilim and Giants: Believe It or Not!: Ancient and Neo-Theo-Sci-Fi Tall Tales.”
Also, “Nephilim and Giants as per Pop-Researchers: A Comprehensive Consideration of the claims of I.D.E. Thomas, Chuck Missler, Dante Fortson, Derek Gilbert, Brian Godawa, Patrick Heron, Thomas Horn, Ken Johnson, L.A. Marzulli, Josh Peck, CK Quarterman, Steve Quayle, Rob Skiba, Gary Wayne, Jim Wilhelmsen, et al.”:
A certain Heidi Hart posted her own reply, which reads
The Hebrew Nephilim means simply unbelieving very tall person. So yes, all the unbelieving giants died in Noah’s flood. However, I think all humans before the flood were giants. So Noah and his wife and three sons and their wives would also have been giants, but not Nephilim because they were believers. And they survived the flood in the ark. I know that the rabbinical tradition and some translations interpret this otherwise (the book of Enoch is made up of added rabbinical traditions after the very first section that Jude quotes), but read the relevant verse again.
”The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown” (Genesis 6:4 ESV).
The first phrase is an aside, Oh, yes, there were giants then. But it goes on to say that it was after that when the believing humans men were seduced by the daughters of the unbelievers. Everyone was a giant. It was only later that the believers were seduced.
The sons of God cannot be fallen angels because sons of God are believers.
The angels in Jude 6 who left their first estate were the angels who were deceived in the original rebellion in heaven. Does NOT mean they mated with humans. Jude 6 says NOTHING about mating.
”And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems. His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth” (Revelation 12:3, 4).
These stars of heaven are the angels who left their original estate in heaven when they were deceived, and were banished to earth with the adversary, the rebel.
So Noah and his three sons and their wives would still have been of that giant race before the flood. There were a few tribes who were still much taller than the rest of humans at the time that Israel was conquering Canaan. Examples are King Og, and Goliath and his father and 3 brothers. They were Nephilim – unbelieving giants.
Ken Ammi
There is no linguistics nor context for asserting “The Hebrew Nephilim means simply unbelieving very tall person,” it actually means fall/fallen/feller/to cause to fall, etc. See my book, “Bible Encyclopedias and Dictionaries on Angels, Demons, Nephilim, and Giants: From 1851 to 2010”: https://www.amazon.com/stores/author/B071NW4F4W/allbooks
If “all humans before the flood were giants” then none of them were giants by definition. Yet, the key questions are:
What’s the usage of the vague, generic, subjective, multi-usage and modern English word “giants” in English Bibles?
What’s your usage of the vague, generic, subjective, multi-usage and modern English word “giants”?
Do those two usages agree?
You asserted that Genesis 6:4 “there were giants then” (we will need to await your replies to the key questions) “But it goes on to say that it was after that” but you didn’t say “after” what, “after” when.
As for “The sons of God cannot be fallen angels because sons of God are believers” I’m unsure where you got that but the fallen Angels are referred to as such for the sake of identification, of course, but never again thereafter.
You assert “The angels in Jude 6 who left their first estate were the angels who were deceived in the original rebellion in heaven. Does NOT mean they mated with humans. Jude 6 says NOTHING about mating” but Jude and 2 Peter 2 combined refer to a sin of Angels, place that sin to pre-flood days and correlate it to sexual sin which occurred after the Angels, “left their first estate,” after which they were incarcerated, and there’s only a one-time fall/sin of Angels in the Bible.
The original, traditional, and majority view among the earliest Jewish and Christians commentators, starting in BC days, was the “Angel view” as I proved in my book, “On the Genesis 6 Affair’s Sons of God: Angels or Not?: A Survey of Early Jewish and Christian Commentaries Including Notes on Giants and the Nephilim.”
I will guess that by “giants” you’re implying subjectively unusual height but then the answer to the third key question is “No.”
King Og: we have no physical description of him.
Goliath was just shy of 7 ft.
“his father and 3 brothers” we’re told that one of them was of “great stature” and that’s all.
Jo Pearce chimed in with
The book of Enoch is not Biblical. It was written by various people and then changed by others. It is not Gid Breathed.
Ken Ammi
1 Enoch is Bible contradicting folklore from centuries, if not millennia, after the Torah, see my book, “In Consideration of the Book(s) of Enoch.”
Barry Ellis
the bible states the nephilim were around in the days of the flood AND after
king og and Goliath were of the raphaim there is debate as to weather they were descendants of the nephilim or another group of giants…..there is archeological evidence of a group of peoples around the canaan area that were 7–10 foot tall that other culters even recorded trading with, i assume THESE are the raphaim of witch were conquered after the exodus in the bible..their defeat would have left a few stragglers “king og” and his son “Goliath”…..just fun observations if u r interested
Ken Ammi
Can you quote and cite where “the bible states the nephilim were around in the days of the flood AND after” (just ensure that the quote refers to the flood).
“king og and Goliath were of the raphaim” and there can’t be a cogent “debate as to weather they were descendants of the nephilim” since any concept of post-flood Nephilim implies that God failed: He meant to be rid of them via the flood but couldn’t get the job done, He must have missed a loophole that you found, the flood was much of a waste, etc. See, fallacious Nephilology negatively effects theology proper. Also, post-flood Nephilologists have to just invent un-biblical tall-tales about how they made it past the flood.
This describes 100% of pop-Nephilologists. And those who claim they survived the flood contradict the Bible five times.
As for “nephilim or another group of giants” well, that begs these key questions:
What’s the usage of the vague, generic, subjective, multi-usage and modern English word “giants” in English Bibles?
What’s your usage of the vague, generic, subjective, multi-usage and modern English word “giants”?
Do those two usages agree?
Jo Pearce
DNA passed down.
Ken Ammi
Passed down to whom and when?
Barry Ellis
I sense alot of hate in a sentiment I am learning about and may be incorrect but the reference of in those days and afterwards being mere paragraphs away from the flood cannot be speaking to anything but the days before and the days after the flood,
IMAGE
genises 6,4
the raphaim have been supposedly claimed to have been nephilim or descendants of such, there is no real decision as to where they came from other than og and Goliath being raphime, also this I may be mistaken about.
the flood was to wipe the earth of sin, and sinners and abominations and the living…witch it did as it was supposed to.
who’s to say these angel offspring aren’t immortal? who’s also to say these angel offspring are ALL evil and served NO PURPOSE? your demand that god must have failed I believe are the faults of a closed mind….we werent there we don’t know.
that is my OPINION given the information I have readily available. it seems to make sense that since there are no giants today that all giants in the Bible must have some commonality or ancestry….regardless the flood wiped the earth clean of sin and abomination as it was supposed to to allow noah to reapear….
Ken Ammi
Fascinatingly, I’ve asked those key questions to dozens and dozens (and dozens [and dozens]) of people who go on and on (and on [and on]) about “giants” and literally zero have replied.
Sorry, I don’t know what this means, “I sense alot of hate in a sentiment I am learning about…”
You’re reading Gen 6:4 but you already know “those days and afterwards being mere paragraphs away from the flood” so you’re actually reading ahead rather then reading the verse for what it states. In fact, the flood’s not even mentioned for the very first time until a full 13 verses later.
Gen 6:4 states, “Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown.”
The question becomes: when were those days?
Well, Gen 6:1 told us, “When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them, the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose.”
The next question becomes: when was afterward?
Since it was after those days then it was simply after, “When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them…”
Thus, the began doing it then and they continued to do it but that’s all pre-flood.
By whom are “raphaim have been supposedly claimed to have been nephilim or descendants of such”? Whoever supposed that does so upon zero data and, again, any concept of post-flood Nephilim implies that God failed.
See, you assert, “the flood was to wipe the earth of sin, and sinners and abominations and the living…witch it did as it was supposed to” but then Nephilim (by any other name) just continued on and you also have to invent un-biblical tall-tales about how they made it past the flood.
As for “who’s to say these angel offspring aren’t immortal?”: God. He revealed five times who survived the flood and Nephilim aren’t on any of those lists.
Now, you once again used the vague, generic, subjective, and multi-usage modern English word “giants” but since I asked you what you meant by it and you didn’t reply then you not only make it difficult for me to understand you but you are making even more statements that I can’t understand such as, “there are no giants today.”
Barry Ellis
whay iv done is begin to research a myth about the nephilim and have given you the information that I have as to the coincidences involved.
witch from your point of view isn’t going to lineup with your biblical teachings and you will use whatever bias opinion was fed to you.
“god” has never said anything in the Bible about the nephilim other than that they were abominations and evil…there’s no discription of lifespan or even visual appearance.
that comes from the book of Enoch witch you would claim is non biblical
you said
When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them…”
Thus, the began doing it then( and they continued to do it but that’s all pre-flood.)
this statement here is where I draw issue it doesn’t state that it was pre flood, it also doesn’t state when those days of and afterwards was.
in the days man began to multiply and afterwards?
if they were Around in the time we began to multiply who was the first? Lilith?
I mean there are unanswered legends all over
Ken Ammi
I’m not interested in your failed attempts at mind reading. You can either deal with the issues or not.
I’ve no idea why you’re telling me, “there’s no discription of lifespan or even visual appearance.”
You asserted, “it doesn’t state that it was pre flood, it also doesn’t state when those days of and afterwards was” but it does both.
That’s from Gen 6:4 and it’s only in verse 17 that we’re first told about the flood. Ergo, it’s pre-flood by chronological definition.
Also, “When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them” is pre-flood by chronological definition.
And, “When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them” was pre-flood when “the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives” so that “The Nephilim were on the earth in those days” which was pre-flood, “When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them” “and also afterward” of the pre-flood days “When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them” which was when “when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man” so that, “they bore children to them” and it’s all pre-flood.
They began doing it “When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them” and continued doing it but the flood brought it all to a full and final end—lest God failed and the flood was much of a waste.
“they were Around in the time we began to multiply” as per God’s word.
“Lilith” is just a folkloric non-biblical character.
Barry Ellis
mind reading? ya lost me, I’m taking details of canonical and noncanonical origin and looking at the whole to formulate my own opinion, the opinion of god failing if the nephilim were not all killed in the flood is if your own assertion. there are origins of stories and billions of views on the story. I am not indoctrinated into accepting unanswered questions that I hold.
that being said I have seen your opinion and thank you for it. good day
Ken Ammi
Yeah, failed “mind reading” when you claimed to know that there’s a “bias opinion was fed to” me so, please deal with the facts on the table rather than attempting to mind read.
Ironically, “god failing if the nephilim were not all killed in the flood is” the logical, theo-logical, and bio-logical conclusion.
How do you get Nephilim past the flood? And note that you’ll have to invent something and that you really have no viable reason for inventing something in the first place.
Barry Ellis
your biased opinion over the book of Enoch not being canon. I merely found a book that claims to be of biblical content and was assessing it’s possibilities….there is no mind reading there.
dealig with facts?
your claiming that the offspring of angels and man are ALL the same, your also claiming that they were NOT immortal as their angel parentage are….the logical course of nature for me than would be to rule out these very inconsistencies.
I mean if your looking for facts, those are them.
if nephilim are immortal as their angel parentage were than god DIDNT kill them in the flood…. cause I mean…there immortal….no?
Ken Ammi
Not interested in reading you denying that you did what you did so, let’s focus on the issues.
I’m unsure how anyone in all of human history claimed that “the offspring of angels and man are ALL the same” since the former would be offspring of Angels but the latter not. So, how could they be the same since they’re different?
As for, “they were NOT immortal as their angel parentage are” well, such is why they died but the Angels were incarcerated.
Barry Ellis
lol! again no mind reading, no denial, no made-up facts.
I stumbled across myths and legends and non canonicle biblical liturature and was following it.
it’s clear in your other comments to other users that you don’t see the book of Enoch as cannon biblical liturature…
and finnally let’s deal with the facts that I have noticed, there is no physical discription, there’s no information other than “giants” available that iv seen that claims these half immortal half human offspring ARENT immortal…..so I was looking into peoples opinions who are more fluent in the bible.
you sir have clearly MISSED the ball on every point accept my first comment of the days of and after.
peace be with u.
Ken Ammi
I’m unsure why you didn’t answer the question but perfectly admitted, your views are un-biblical because you “stumbled across myths and legends and non canonicle biblical liturature and was following it.”
So, I’ve only been attempting to assist you in seeing how those, “myths and legends and non canonicle biblical liturature” contradict the Bible.
Of course, I, “don’t see the book of Enoch as cannon biblical liturature” why would I?
I’m unsure what, “no information other than ‘giants’ available” means.
The issue of “days of and after” was the question of when.
Shalom.
Barry Ellis
question? I believe you have forgotten why we started this comentary
IMAGE
OF COURSE I’m chasing a “non biblical” myth and legend from the book of Enoch witch you stated you don’t see as biblical…but there are cultures that do see it as biblical in ETHIOPIA. so I commented on coincidences I found that weren’t answered.
and other than opinion and blame you have provided NO such assistance or claim otherwise if biblical explination….
I am curious as to the biblical understanding of what Enoch speaks about….that’s it
peace be with u.
Ken Ammi
Sorry, I don’t know what this means, “question?”
That 1 Enoch is in the Ethiopian cannon doesn’t make that one cannon uniquely correct but rather, uniquely incorrect since 1 Enoch is Bible contradicting folklore from millennia after the Torah (see my book, “In Consideration of the Book(s) of Enoch”) in fact, that cannon also contains a text titled, “The Life of Adam and Eve” which claims that when God created Adam, God commanded the Angels to worship Adam.
“the biblical understanding of what Enoch speaks about” is that it (referring to the key portion of 1 Enoch and not the rest of it nor 2 Enoch nor 3 Enoch) was clearly written a few centuries BC, someone just slapped the name “Enoch” on it, it contradicts the Bible a LOT, it tells tall-tales, but at least it doesn’t have physical post-flood Nephilim so at least on that point, it agrees with the Bible.
Barry Ellis
is the Torah NOT old testiment basically?
Jo Pearce
Wow! Who is king og? Definitely not Biblical.
Ken Ammi
King Og is mentioned circa 22 times in the Bible but we don’t have a physical description of him.
ESV Search Results for “og” (blueletterbible.org)
Jo Pearce
Scriptures please. I like to read it for myself.
Ken Ammi
I literally provided you the link to every scripture so you could read it for yourself.
That brought the discussion to and end as no more replies were forthcoming.
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