The following discussion ensued from the video Who Are The Nephilim? | with Joshua Lewis & Michael Rowntree by Right Response Ministries which consistently only gives wrong responses to Nephilology and related issues.
I, Ken Ammi, noted
Yes, “the word ‘Nephilim’ only appears one other time in scripture that’s Numbers 13 verse 33” but the Nephilim don’t: that’s just a reference to them.
See, you read, “the Israelite spies reported that they had seen the Nephilim” but you need to be more detailed since there were 12 spies but it was the 10 unfaithful, disloyal, contradictory, embellishes who made five assertions about which the whole entire rest of the Bible knows nothing and whom God rebuked who claimed that, they just concocted a tall tale.
That there were post-flood Nephilim, that Anakim were related to them, and that Nephilim were very tall are all exclusively stated within the 10 spies’ “evil report” so are utterly unreliable assertions not back by even one other single verse.
Thus, did didn’t survive the flood and there’s not one single statement about them returning, not even a hint of Angles falling again (there’s only a one time fall of Angels in the Bible).
And the only reason to think that they survived (in any way, shape, or form) or returned is, guess what?, one single verse within an “evil report” by utterly unreliable guys whom God rebuked—to death.
Craig Chambers replied
The point of the Nephilim made in Genesis 6 was that they were before and after the flood. It does not necessarily take angels falling again in that manner (they are spiritually fallen in any case) to produce Nephilim, as they, being born of women, had reproductive capabilities in their own bodies, in which case there would have been some Nephilim ancestry mixed in with Noah. But if one must regard that as not possible for some reason, then it refers to a continuance of angels taking physical form for immoral and unnatural intent after the flood. I am not aware of a one-time fall verse in regards to physical manifestations of angels, only their one-time fall from spiritual life. In fact, angels were obviously able to take on physical manifestation and eat food. So, fallen angels, Genesis 6, could continue the practice before and after the flood until they were imprisoned. We are not told when they were imprisoned as far as I can tell.
Ken Ammi
Most interesting, friend.
But your proposal is premised on the mere assertion that, “there would have been some Nephilim ancestry mixed in with Noah.”
But besides that you had to invent that story (and imply that God failed): if there was some then why are there no such things as post-flood Nephilim—which is one reason, “one must regard that as not possible”—?
Inventing “a continuance of angels taking physical form for immoral and unnatural intent after the flood” 1) also implies that God failed, 2) is fallacious since there’s no indication anywhere that Angles take physical form, 3) as per Jude and 2 Peter 2 they were incarcerated so they would not have been around to do any such thing. True, “We are not told when they were imprisoned” but since the flood was when God was cleaning house, in a manner of speaking, then just letting it all happen again post-flood implies that the flood was a waste.
As I noted, it is true that there is no, “one-time fall verse in regards to physical manifestations of angels” since there are zero such verses.
See, when you say, “angels were obviously able to take on physical manifestation and eat food” you’re getting ahead of yourself: your hidden assumption of a premise is faulty, you imply they are not ontologically physical but they are physical (even if with access to realms/dimensions) we can’t access.
Beyond all of this, you find yourself being forced to literally make up stuff just to protect one single verse that merely records an evil report by utterly unreliable guys whom God rebuked: why do you side with them? They made five assertions about which the whole entire rest of the Bible knows nothing at all: why exclusively believe them? They contradict Moses, Caleb, Joshua, God, and the rest of the Bible: as for me and my house, we will side with contradict Moses, Caleb, Joshua, God, and the rest of the Bible.
Craig Chambers
Just some quick replies, but no more since this appears to be accusatory rather than instructive. I reread my post and do not see where I ‘invented’ some story. I have conjectured based on the verse itself, “before and after the flood.” So, either from the loins of Noah or angels doing the same thing again until imprisonment, unless there is a third option that I don’t see. Angels took physical form and ate food (Abraham before the destruction of Sodom; men desiring relations (sex) with angels in Sodom, entertaining angels unawares). Taking such form does not mean they are not spirit, but that they abandoned their natural spirit abode for a time. If this happened once and it did not imply that God failed (which He cannot do), why would doing it after the flood suggest failure? God is God, and nothing any living thing like angels do is without His will involved (however you look at that; permissive, direct).
The spies, all ten, gave the report. There was no dispute as to the fact that the people were generally larger, and besides, there were also Nephilim. What was ‘evil’ was the stress laid by the eight that these people were too strong for the Jews to fight and they would lose. Caleb and Hoshea (Joshua) were contrary, saying that the Lord would prevail and that the Jews should go into the land and fight as God was commanding. To read into this that the facts were evil rather than the conclusion (which the whole assembly took to heart and wept and rebelled) is to implicate Caleb and Joshua as well, but clearly they presented the facts too and yet concluded that God was going to give them the victory.
Ken Ammi
Friend, please don’t read my black and white text emotively: I’m interested in sharpening iron with iron—I just find that when we seek to sharpen iron with iron, someone tends to get cut.
Since there’s nothing in the whole Bible about post-flood Nephilim then, by definition, seeking to elucidate a reappearance of them post-flood is inventing some story.
Now, you refer to, “the verse itself, ‘before and after the flood’” but there’s no such verse in the whole Bible and by inserting “the flood” into it you miss that it is telling you to what days it’s referring and it’s not the flood: those days were when the SoG first mated with the DoM and afterwards is just that, after they first did it. They began to do it and kept doing it but that’s all pre-flood.
So anything about “from the loins of Noah or angels doing the same thing again” is unnecessary since we’ve no reliable indication of any post-flood Nephilim at any time at all.
You say, “Angels took physical form” but there’s no such thing in the Bible. Rather, every time they are described they are described as looking just like human males so that means that such is how they look naturally, that is their ontology, and we were created “a little lower” then they: they are not spirit, they are embodied in a flesh of their own which enjoyed access to dimensional realms that we can’t access.
Doing it after the flood suggests failure since it would imply that God sent a worldwide flood in order to be rid of fallen Angel and Nephilim related byproducts only to have them do it all again so the flood was a waste.
You say “The spies, all ten, gave the report” but there were twelve spies and Joshua sided with Caleb so that leaves the ten unfaithful, disloyal, contradictory, embellishers whom God rebuked: why side with them and against Moses, Joshua, Caleb, God, and the rest of the whole Bible?
You say, “There was no dispute as to the fact that the people were generally larger, and besides, there were also Nephilim” but when Moses relates the event in Deut 1 he doesn’t even bother mentioning Nephilim: he’s too concerned about the real dangers on the ground, not made up tall tales. Also, “generally larger” means generally larger than 5.0-5.3 ft. so what of it?
What was “evil” was the motivation and to what it led. The report is not false because it’s called “evil” but due to its demonstrably false contents: five assertions about which the whole entire rest of the Bible knows nothing at all. That’s why neo-Nephilology is literally based on one single verse.
That brought the discussion to and end as no more replies were forthcoming.
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