The video, “War of the Words – Rephaim and Royal Titles” with Douglas Hamp & Dr Judd Burton was posted to Hamp’s YouTube channel The Awakening Report.
I, Ken Ammi, replied
Shalom, that “they created this hybrid race that we know variously as Nephilim, Rephaim, Zamzumim, etc. so these are the various names for these these hybridized creatures” is committing a category error: Nephilim were strictly pre-flood hybrids, Rephaim were strictly post-flood humans, there is no relation between them and Zamzumim is merely an aka for Rephaim.
Doug Hamp replied
Hey Ken, I would point to Numb 13:33. “There we saw the giants (the descendants of Anak came from the giants); and we were like grasshoppers in our own sight, and so we were in their sight.” (Num 13:33). We also see that God destroyed the Amorite whose height was like the cedars (Amos 2:9). I detail these things and go into the original languages in my new book, Corrupting the Image 2.
Ken Ammi
Shalom brother, I pray I find you well.
You may recall that we discussed this already–including within the emails in which you offered to have me review your new book and I agreed to do so.
In Num 13:33 who is the “we” who say they “saw”?
You will find that it was unfaithful, disloyal, contradictory, embellishing spies whom presented an evil report and whom God rebuked.
They made four claims about which the whole entire rest of the Bible knows nothing.
They contradict Moses, Caleb, Joshua, God, and the rest of the Bible.
That one single verse is the one and only one upon which the whole entire theory of post-flood Nephilim is based as well as the assertion that they were very tall and that they are related to Anakim (not even to all Rephaim).
Also, note that in Deut 1:27-28 Moses relates that event and does not even bother noting Nephilim and that the LXX of that verse (v. 34 in that version) does not mention Anakim. Thus, there are also conceptual and textual issues with it.
Now, I am unsure what Amorite have to do with it since my comment was about Nephilim. But, while we are at it, what is the one-to-one ratio based comparison of the strength of an oak to the strength of a person?
A certain, “v1e1r1g1e1” chimed in with
I expect someone else has already corrected you on your many errors, but I think it bears mentioning that you are quite wrong in your suggestiion that the Spies Who Gave An Evil Report Of The Land (as they are known) were merely embellishing in order to scare the Israelites from invading.
Were I to tell you, ”Don’t go to Tasmania! There are HUGE people down there! Seriously, they’re enormous! I felt like a mouse compared to them! They’re so huge and so many, that the land can barely support them. We’d have no chance against them in a battle.”… The first thing you’d do would be to say ”Bolderdash! There’s no such thing as gigantic huge Human-like things! They all died out. And why would there be any in Tasmania!?”
In short, the Israelites did not doubt the report of the spies… and Caleb and Joshua did not immediately gainsay their testimony. Rather, Caleb and Joshua affirmed the capacity of the Israelites – with God on their side – to destroy the Canaanites. So the burden of proof is not to show that there were physical descendants of the ancient Nephilim still extant in the world… but to try to deny it using the Scripture itself.
In this, you will have a hard time, because there are many many verses in Scripture – whether Septuagint or Masoretic – which make it abundantly clear that when there is discussion of Nephilim, Rephaim, Anakim, Emim or Amorite… they are talking about physical genetic mutation / hybrids of human and angelic beings on Earth.
Ken Ammi
Oh, I don’t think they were merely embellishing: they were straight up deceiving.
Your metaphor fails because it implies a recording of an entire scenario, an entire discussion.
Indeed, “Caleb and Joshua affirmed the capacity of the Israelites – with God on their side – to destroy the Canaanites” but among them you count Nephilim so now you have a number of problems such as God failing so that the flood was a waste, having to invent a tall tale about how to get Nephilim past the flood, how to make sense of a narrative that has unfaithful, disloyal, contradictory, embellishers whom God rebuked being trustworthy, dealing with why we’re told many times about the people in the land and around the land and about battles and hand-to-hand combat without a single reference to Nephilim ever, etc., etc., etc.
The burden of proof is, in fact, to show that there were physical descendants of the ancient Nephilim still extant in the world.
To deny it is quite simple using the Scripture itself: Genesis 7:7, 23; Hebrews 11:7; 1 Peter 3:20; 2 Peter 2:5 along with zero statements about a second fall of Angels nor of any manner of any sort of return of Nephilim otherwise.
Now, I get the feeling you’re willing to water down what’s supposed to be specific terminology since you write of “Nephilim, Rephaim, Anakim, Emim or Amorite.”
Yet, there’s no correlation between Nephilim and Rephaim, Anakim, Emim or Amorite.
Rephaim were a main group (like a tribe) under which there are subgroups (like clans) such as the Anakim.
Also, Emim is just an aka for Rephaim.
Plus, there’s zero indication that Rephaim, Anakim, Emim or Amorite are “physical genetic mutation / hybrids of human and angelic beings on Earth.”
Even if, for some odd reason, you actually believe some of the least reliable guys in the Bible—guys whom we’re told presented an “evil report,” guys who contradict Moses, Caleb, Joshua, God, and the rest of the whole Bible, guys who make five assertions about which the whole entire rest of the Bible knows nothing at all—you still only get Anakim as related to Nephilim, not all Rephaim: just be sure to check the LXX for Num 13:33 first.
v1e1r1g1e1
Goodness, what long post! You claim ”The burden of proof is, in fact, to show that there were physical descendants of the ancient Nephilim still extant in the world.”. Easy. Genesis 6: 4 – ”There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them”
The Bible itself makes it clear that there were TWO (at least) incursions of Angelic interbreedings with human women: The first, the main one, occuring in the antideluvian world, to such an extent that only 8 pure bloodline / pure DNA humans lived, necessitating the Flood. The 2nd occurred some time after the Tower of Babel incident, which saw the dispersal of humanity from the plain of Shinar out into the globe. The Bible provides proof that these angelic inbreedings caused giants and were therefore technically ‘Nephilim”.
The particular pedigrees of giant (Anakim, Rephaim, etc) do not eliminate the reality that these creatures did indeed infest the Holy Land at the time of Joshua, and before. That these monster hybrids were descended of further angelic beings, alike to those angelic beings who left their first estate during the antediluvian world, establishes that they were of the Nephilim…. not the selfsame ones who defiled the Earth in Noah’s day… but Nephilim even so for their paternity.
Ken Ammi
Friend, I’m unsure how “that there were physical descendants of the ancient Nephilim still extant in the world” is evidenced by that “’There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them.”
I must admit it bothers me that seem to imply that God failed and the flood was much of a waste: God caused the flood to be rid of “Angelic interbreedings” and preserve “only 8 pure bloodline / pure DNA humans” but Angles thought of a loophole He missed, they just came right back and did it all again.
Now, when you say “The Bible itself makes it clear that…The 2nd occurred some time after the Tower of Babel incident” where does it make that clear?
When you say “The Bible provides proof that these angelic inbreedings caused giants” where does it do that?
Also, what do you mean by “giants”?
FYI: Anakim are a subgroup, like a clan, of Rephaim, who were like a tribe.
What indication do you have that Rephaim were “creatures…monster hybrids”?
See, you replied with a list of assertions but they all go back to one single verse: Num 13:33.
I noted this to Doug:
In Num 13:33 who is the “we” who say they “saw”?
You will find that it was unfaithful, disloyal, contradictory, embellishing spies whom presented an evil report and whom God rebuked.
They made four claims about which the whole entire rest of the Bible knows nothing.
They contradict Moses, Caleb, Joshua, God, and the rest of the Bible.
That one single verse is the one and only one upon which the whole entire theory of post-flood Nephilim is based as well as the assertion that they were very tall and that they are related to Anakim (not even to all Rephaim).
I noted this to you:
Even if, for some odd reason, you actually believe some of the least reliable guys in the Bible—guys whom we’re told presented an “evil report,” guys who contradict Moses, Caleb, Joshua, God, and the rest of the whole Bible, guys who make five assertions about which the whole entire rest of the Bible knows nothing at all—you still only get Anakim as related to Nephilim, not all Rephaim: just be sure to check the LXX for Num 13:33 first.
So, what is THE issue.
v1e1r1g1e1
Ken, I think we’re wasting our time here. You’re starting to repeat the same argument, and you nit-pick replies; demanding that we provide some kind of coup d-gras Chapter and Verse citation which will prove once and for all that there were Human / Angelic inbreedings in the past and that the Nephilim, Rephaim, Zamzumim, Emim, Anakim, etc were ALL descended of such bloodlines.
Doug Hamp and I have responded in good grace, trying to answer your questions, but I think you’re arguing for argument’s sake now… despite your (final?) question about what is the ”issue” here. I will answer that (last) question, but after this, we’re done here. The issue is that Satan and his allies were – and still are – attempting to pollute the human bloodline. God has made us to be a being that can unite its consciousness with His, through the action and indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
Only humans can have this. We are special. Satan and his allies attempt/ed to undermine this; robbing humanity of its chance to know the Creator in the way he has planned for us since the Beginning. Time after time, this angelic rebellion has been attempted and time after time, thwarted. But Satan and his minions will indeed try one last time… indeed, Jesus says clearly that the End Times will be ”like the days of Noah”. Not just the usual sins of Humanity, but our entire civilisation in the very near future, if not already – our very physical bloodlines! – will be polluted with non-human DNA.
The result of this will be a world culture that is not only struggling to know God because of Adam’s sin in us… but will be actively anti-God because the very DNA in it will make such entities utterly unable to find Christ. That is why there will be a future last cleansing of the Earth; the Tribulation. But I trust we are safe in Jesus Christ; for only He is the Way, the Truth and the Life. Goodbye, Ken. Stay with Christ and may God guide you in your path.
Ken Ammi
Well, sure, when you are asserting that some humans weren’t human (or weren’t fully human) it is incumbent upon to you evidence it—but, sure, maybe that’s because I’m a Jew and get touchy about such things.
“Human / Angelic inbreedings” resulted in Nephilim and they didn’t make it past the flood.
If you want to contradict Genesis 7:7, 23; Hebrews 11:7; 1 Peter 3:20; 2 Peter 2:5 then you can assert that they did—in some way, shape, or form.
FYI: “Zamzumim, Emim, Anakim” are all Rephaim and you can’t even get all Rephaim being “descended of such bloodlines” from anywhere in the whole Bible. The most you can do is to accept as trustworthy people whom God rebuked for what they said and demand that Anakim were “descended of such bloodlines”—but not in the LXX.
Note that your parting statement includes that “Satan and his allies were – and still are – attempting to pollute the human bloodline” and that you imply that God sent a flood to end all of that but He failed.
You also misquoted and misapplied Jesus since He said the very same things about the days of Noah and the days of Lot and it had utterly nothing to do with the Genesis 6 affair.
See, you say “That is why there will be a future last cleansing of the Earth; the Tribulation” but you deny that the flood was such a cleaning when, in fact, the Bible is clear that the flood succeeded but nothing is said about the tribulation within the context of the Genesis 6 affair.
Shalom. Stay with Christ and may God guide you in your path.
Well, that was the end of that.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A plea: I have to pay for server usage and have made all content on this website free and always will. I support my family on one income and do research, writing, videos, etc. as a hobby. If you can even spare $1.00 as a donation, please do so: it may not seem like much but if each person reading this would do so, even every now and then, it would add up and really, really help out. Here is my donate/paypal page.
Due to robo-spaming, I had to close the comment sections. However, you can comment on my Twitter page, on my Facebook page, or any of my other social network sites all which are available here.