The following discussion took place due to the Quora site question Was Noah the only human left with no Nephilim blood in him at all by the time of the flood even amongst his own family?
A certain, “רענן אלעזרי” commented
There’s an opinion that Noah’s son Ham’s wife engaged in relations with ‘Ogh (Og), which is why Ham had relations with his wife in the ark (to cover up the fact that her pregnancy was NOT from him). She gave birth to Sichon. So, according to opinions that hold that Og was a naphil, this would work. Note, too, that recently the scientific community is finding different humanoid genes that have largely disappeared, but still have traces in homo sapiens because of interbreeding. I sure the full picture will come out one day.
I, Ken Ammi, replied
“There’s an opinion” where?
Also, Og lived MILLENNIA after the flood and was a Repha, not a Nephil.
You seem to be exclusively appealing to a Midrash which, by definition, is homiletic, sermonizing, folkloric, etc.
I believe the opinion is tannaic. I believe there are multiple opinions about the relationship between refaim & nefilim.
Where did you get such a definition of midhrash? There are plenty of midhrash that are NOT “sermonizing.” Who gets to determine what’s “folkoric?”
Well, the opinion seems to be a latter-day tall tale.
There may be “multiple opinions about the relationship between refaim & nefilim” but there’s no evidence of any such a thing.
Did the flood have anything to do with Nephilim?
By definition Midrashim are collections of homilies which are sermonizing by definition. So, for example, when a Midrash (Rabbah) comes along MILLENNIA after the Torah and tells us about Og hitching a ride on the ark—for which there’s zero evidence predating that assertion—then we can comfortably categorize that as folkoric.
Early shalom Shabbath!!!
What are the criteria of a “latter-day tall tale?”
If there’s no evidence of your great-great grandfather, does that mean he didn’t exist?
My understanding is the nefilim contributed to the downfall of antediluvian by their massive debauchery.
Midhrash are derushoth, with the chips falling wherever they fall. What morality do you learn from ‘Ogh?
Midhrash can certainly be learned even today, it’s just a forensic reexamination of the text & we can certainly find previously overlooked data just a forensic detective may do even with dinosaur bones. Why are you so dismissing & limiting?
How can you call midhrash folkloric when it was not available to all the folk??? Midhrash is far more academic than mere folklore. Your definitions don’t match.
ערב שבת שלום!
- Since the context is the Torah, Bereshith in particular, then 10-220 AD qualifies as “latter-day” and a “tall tale” since there’s no reason to believe that the Tannaim had access to any sort of accurate extra-data.
- Unsure what this has to do with anything but no.
- Fair enough.
- Exactly my point, so one thing I learned is that folklore serves some purposes but one of them isn’t to tell necessarily to relay historical facts.
- See 4.
- As you noted, “Midhrash are derushoth.”
Folklore is common & binding. Derash is not, it is academic. I think we are disagreeing w/derash. Derash is a triggering a deep understanding of text because of an unnecessary letter or word. I think you are taking them in the more common language of sermons, but I’m talking in the sense of PaRDeS. Folklore is more instructional, passing down the wisdom of a behaviour, derash is more methodical, going by tight concise rules. Because derash didn’t occur at the time of the original writing of the Torah doesn’t mean they’re not true just like a forensic investigation doesn’t have to be performed immediately after, say, a car accident or murder. They both share in common applying methodology to text or incidences.
Tannaim had access to beraithoth given at Mount Sinai as well as the exegesis methodologies given there. Folklore is NOT done through methodologies. I don’t think your comparison has any validity.
Let’s not lose site of the issues which are very specific assertions about Og, the flood, Rephaim, Nephilim, unusual height, etc.
Indeed, “Because derash didn’t occur at the time of the original writing of the Torah doesn’t mean they’re not true” but that “Tannaim had access to beraithoth given at Mount Sinai” seems to be part of the self-made folklore to lend themselves authority.
Such as why no such concept existed until their wanted to claim such authority for themselves.
Thus, there’s no historical nor theological reason to think that Og hitching a ride on the ark, being large, etc. are anything but folklore from millennia after the Torah and not in the least bit based on any text in any way whatsoever.
Bereshith 7:23 notes, “He blotted out every living substance which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and creeping thing, and fowl of the heaven; and they were blotted out from the earth; and Noah only was left, and they that were with him in the ark.”
The folklore contradicts this.
How can you prove “no such concept existed until they wanted to claim such authority for themselves?”
What benefit is there for anyone to make claims about Og’s size & hitchhiking?
I like, VERY MUCH, your use of Bereshith 07:23!!! Have you researched the trigger for the derash?
Consider references to Haghar of being both Abraham’s wife & immediately after she’s referred to as being a slave. THAT’S a derash trigger. I don’t know the trigger for the ‘Ogh derash. I already have too much on my plate. ‘Erev shabbath shalom!!!
Maybe we can do this the other way around: what makes you think that such a concept existed before they wanted to claim such authority for themselves? I ask because my only reply to your question would be that we’ve no such evidence.
“What benefit…” folklore.
I’m unsure how “Haghar…being both Abraham’s wife & immediately after she’s referred to as being a slave” triggers “He blotted out every living substance which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and creeping thing, and fowl of the heaven; and they were blotted out from the earth; and Noah only was left, and they that were with him in the ark” especially when you anachronistically place the trigger after the statement/event.
I don’t have any evidence, other than exegesis, that ‘Ogh walked along side Noach’s ark. There’s a Mishlei that says something to the effect that a “ship doesn’t leave a path in the ocean,” so, barring satellite pictures, I don’t see how any evidence could be produced over this claim of the sages.
Ken, I understand you’re attached to repeating your “folklore” mantra, but you’ve yet to explain how labeling the ‘Ogh claim as “folklore” is a benefit. Are you able to do so?
Haghar’s being called both a shifcha & a wife is a contradiction in terms. There is a similar labeling with Eli’ezer where Rivqa’s family refers to him as “the man,” while Avraham refers to him as “the servant.” Biblical words aren’t accidental or sloppy, so this triggers a derash, a NEED to EXPLAIN why mutually exclusive terms are used for the same subject.
‘Ogh is NOT linked to Haghar. I specifically told you that I do NOT know the ‘Ogh trigger, but JUST as there is a trigger relative to Haghar (& I was ILLUSTRATING what a trigger looks like), so must there be a trigger in reference to ‘Ogh, THOUGH, I confessed, I do NOT know what that trigger is. Anachronisms are irrelevant in Biblical texts. An exegetic trigger is there to teach an idea or concept, not to teach a historical sequence.
I’m unsure how you can call that “exegesis.”
“how labeling the ‘Ogh claim as ‘folklore’ is a benefit”: it avoids contradicting Genesis 7:7, 23; Hebrews 11:7; 1 Peter 3:20; and 2 Peter 2:5 and it’s in keeping with the Tanakh’s chronology.
The trigger isn’t in or due to the Tanakh but due to merely asserting to know how tall Og was, merely asserting to know how tall Nephilim were, merely asserting a correlation based on unknown height, merely asserting he must have lived millennia before he actually lived, merely asserting he survived the flood, etc., etc., etc.
Well, that ended the discussion since no more replies were forthcoming.
A plea: I have to pay for server usage and have made all content on this website free and always will. I support my family on one income and do research, writing, videos, etc. as a hobby. If you can even spare $1.00 as a donation, please do so: it may not seem like much but if each person reading this would do so, even every now and then, it would add up and really, really help out. Here is my donate/paypal page.